Is a fetus considered alive?

[ray245]

Well recently I've seen a few debates about a fetus being alive or not, and the morality of killing a fetus from a failed abortion.

But neither of them has managed to convince me who is in the right and wrong.

So I want to ask the members here, when is a fetus considered alive scienitifically and morally(meaning your own personal stand) ? Or when is it considered a human being.


And if a fetus is alive, then when is a fetus considered alive?


Flame me if I make any mistakes.

[Zor]

It is composed of living cells from the getgo, so it is always alive, just like your garden variety Daylily. When it becomes sapient is another matter entirely.

Zor

[ray245]

OK...

So when is a fetus considered sapient?

Or is it not considered as sapient until birth?

[Plekhanov]

The real issue is when if ever do the rights of a foetus override those of the woman the foetus depends upon for it's continued existence.

[Knife]

Well lets see. A fetus is from the ~9th week till birth, so since a child just minutes away from birth is still a fetus, I'd say some where in there you have to start calling them viable. It's around ~6 months were most of the internal organs of a fetus are developed enough that given a premature birth, the child has a shot at living.

Now mentally? Since it takes a kid well into their teens to start thinking like an adult human, we can safely say aborting all children under 15 is a viable option.

[Tsyroc]

Now mentally? Since it takes a kid well into their teens to start thinking like an adult human, we can safely say aborting all children under 15 is a viable option.

I think I'm sensing the influence of your children in that comment.

Not exactly enjoying the teen years are you?

[Knife]

I think I'm sensing the influence of your children in that comment.

Not exactly enjoying the teen years are you?

Meh, kids are supposed to drive you crazy so you will help them get the hell out of your house when it's time.

[Tsyroc]

Meh, kids are supposed to drive you crazy so you will help them get the hell out of your house when it's time.

Worked with my sister. She and my parents (mostly my dad) got on each other's nerves like crazy when she was a teen. She was out the door as soon as she had a decent option.

[Singular Intellect]

OK...

So when is a fetus considered sapient?

Or is it not considered as sapient until birth?

When the brain is present and activity begins, we can safely say that the fetus has become human.

As to the term 'sapient' as I know it's definition, I honestly wouldn't have even considered myself sapient until my latter teen years.

[General Zod]

It is composed of living cells from the getgo, so it is always alive, just like your garden variety Daylily. When it becomes sapient is another matter entirely.

Zor

On the other hand, you could make the argument that until the fetus is capable of processing its own metabolism independent from the mother, it isn't even technically alive at that point.

[Darth Wong]

A fetus isn't even sentient until around halfway through the pregnancy; it takes that long for its central nervous system to develop to the point that it can sense things, never mind developing any higher thought patterns.

[Zixinus]

I would consider it alive at the point when it would be capable of breathing and living on its own. Until then, it is a growth inside the mother.

[Darth Servo]

For the "is it alive" question, can we consider how this would change if humans reproduced externally, laying eggs like birds or fish? The developing egg is independent of the mother's body yet you crack that egg before it hatches, the thing still dies.

How can the fetus die if its not alive?

As was pointed out all cells are alive. Whether its alive is irrelevant. Even the sperm and egg cells are alive yet no one gets in a big ethical debate over a woman having her period (at least not anymore).

[Lord of the Abyss]

OK...

So when is a fetus considered sapient?

Or is it not considered as sapient until birth?

When the brain is present and activity begins, we can safely say that the fetus has become human.

Nope, it's not that simple. Physically, it's human from before conception; sperm and ova are human cells, after all. Mentally, you'd have to define "human" - and in fact, ray245 said "sapient", and not human.

And as I recall, fetuses don't produce human brainwaves until six months, and much of the early brain tissue doesn't survive until birth anyway; it's just there as part of early development.

[Singular Intellect]

OK...

So when is a fetus considered sapient?

Or is it not considered as sapient until birth?

When the brain is present and activity begins, we can safely say that the fetus has become human.

Nope, it's not that simple. Physically, it's human from before conception; sperm and ova are human cells, after all. Mentally, you'd have to define "human" - and in fact, ray245 said "sapient", and not human.

It should have been obvious I'm talking about mental issues here. 'Human' is a term that can be applied to shit as well.

And as I recall, fetuses don't produce human brainwaves until six months, and much of the early brain tissue doesn't survive until birth anyway; it's just there as part of early development.

I thought it was 4.5 months into the pregnacy where brain wave activity began.

[General Zod]

For the "is it alive" question, can we consider how this would change if humans reproduced externally, laying eggs like birds or fish? The developing egg is independent of the mother's body yet you crack that egg before it hatches, the thing still dies.

Birds and fish still depend on the nutrients in their eggs, which is provided by the parent. They also require incubation a significant chunk of the time, since they don't generate their own heat.

How can the fetus die if its not alive?

The same way someone who is clinically dead can "die" when taken off life-support.

As was pointed out all cells are alive. Whether its alive is irrelevant. Even the sperm and egg cells are alive yet no one gets in a big ethical debate over a woman having her period (at least not anymore).

Just because they're "alive" doesn't mean they're capable of sustaining themselves outside of the parent organism.

[Darth Servo]

As was pointed out all cells are alive. Whether its alive is irrelevant. Even the sperm and egg cells are alive yet no one gets in a big ethical debate over a woman having her period (at least not anymore).

Just because they're "alive" doesn't mean they're capable of sustaining themselves outside of the parent organism.

Um, yeah, maybe thats why I said being "alive" is irrelevant to this discussion?

[Akhlut]

My personal thoughts are that because nearly everything is already formed by week 11, then that is roughly when it would acquire 'humaness." I'm basing this on my developmental biology class, textbook, and my own fiance's pregnancy and the stuff we've gotten from that.

[LadyTevar]

If I go by the State Code that details when to use a Fetal Death certificate, it's 20 weeks. Before that, the state doesn't bother to record it.

HOWEVER, if the fetus is able to take a breath before dying, no matter how old it is, they can't use the Fetal Death certificate, but have to use the Physician's Certificate of Death, as well as file a Certificate of Live Birth, just as if it had been a full-term child who died after birth.

Yes, we've had 24week old 'Births', matched by the child's immediate Death certificate with a listed age of "under 5 minutes".

[Darth Wong]

My personal thoughts are that because nearly everything is already formed by week 11, then that is roughly when it would acquire 'humaness." I'm basing this on my developmental biology class, textbook, and my own fiance's pregnancy and the stuff we've gotten from that.

Where did you get the idea that "nearly everything is already formed by week 11"? Especially with respect to the brain?

[Akhlut]

My personal thoughts are that because nearly everything is already formed by week 11, then that is roughly when it would acquire 'humaness." I'm basing this on my developmental biology class, textbook, and my own fiance's pregnancy and the stuff we've gotten from that.

Where did you get the idea that "nearly everything is already formed by week 11"? Especially with respect to the brain?

My developmental biology textbook, "Developmental Biology" 8th edition, by Scott Gilbert. Figure 11.47 illustrates how the major internal organs have all formed by week 11 and neurulation is completed early in development. While, yes, there is a great deal of growth and things like development of lung surfactants left to do, the fetus has become attained basically all major hallmarks of human anatomy. Sure, the organism isn't viable, but it is only a short skip and jump away from being like the altricial young of other mammals, like rodents and lagomorphs.

[Akhlut]

GHETTO EDIT: The figure does not illustrate the neurulation, but neurulation is discussed in other chapters.

[Darth Wong]

My personal thoughts are that because nearly everything is already formed by week 11, then that is roughly when it would acquire 'humaness." I'm basing this on my developmental biology class, textbook, and my own fiance's pregnancy and the stuff we've gotten from that.

Where did you get the idea that "nearly everything is already formed by week 11"? Especially with respect to the brain?

My developmental biology textbook, "Developmental Biology" 8th edition, by Scott Gilbert. Figure 11.47 illustrates how the major internal organs have all formed by week 11 and neurulation is completed early in development. While, yes, there is a great deal of growth and things like development of lung surfactants left to do, the fetus has become attained basically all major hallmarks of human anatomy. Sure, the organism isn't viable, but it is only a short skip and jump away from being like the altricial young of other mammals, like rodents and lagomorphs.

Irrelevant to the level of brain development. The fact that a fetus has hands and legs and an identifiable blob where its brain should be does not mean that it actually has a functional brain or nervous system.

[Cairber]

I don't agree that everything is formed by week 11, or even close...

From the AAP's book on pregnancy and fetal development:

Week13-16:
bone formation, muscle formation

week 17:
hearing

Week 21-23:
bone marrow/blood cells
lower lung development

Week 24:
all parts of eye
air sac formation in the lungs

Week 25-28:
greatest period of brain development
nervous system begins to be more functional


Also there is a section about pain and that the fetus cannot feel any pain before 24 weeks because the cortex and thalamus are not development enough.



I have a hard time seeing my babies are being "complete humans, alive, sapient" etc until they are born. I am 9 months right now and still I do not feel as though our last child has joined the family yet. I think having friends who have had stillborns has really affected me on this. Of course, my feeling are just that and are in no way scientific.

[Akhlut]

The text being a general developmental biology text doesn't give much in the way of a decent timeframe for human neurulation, but from what I can tell, the brain differentiates into its constituent layers (cerebellum, neocortex, etc.) happens fairly early.
This series of slides from the UNC school of medicine illustrates the approximate timing of formation of brain structures in humans as compared to mice. I'll try to get ahold of my brother and ask him if he knows, since he has a Master's degree in neuroscience and might know more about how the human brain grows and matures.