Bioshock

[Setzer]

http://www.shacknews.com/featuredarticle.x?id=539

Ken Levine: Literally, the end is that you take control of this nuclear submarine, and for me it's less about war and more about having that power. Extending the power of Rapture to be a third superpower, potentially. Now, none of this is canon, it's just how I interpret it. He gets ahold of a nuclear weapon, and what would happen if that city became on par with other superpowers? That would be an interesting world. [laughs]

Well, I can't deny I find it a neat concept. So what do you do, assuming you are Jack? At the end of the game, you kill Fontaine, take control of Rapture, and reprogram everything to respond to your DNA. You have control of several thousand splicers thanks to the pheremones Ryan uses.
The security systems are also under your control. The Little Sisters go back to providing you with ADAM, which you have the only supply of.

Since the war between Ryan and Fontaine is over, you manage to scrape up enough ADAM to restore the splicers to sanity and humanity, or a reasonable facsimile thereof, and Rapture slowly comes back to life.

After a while, the rest of the world learns that there's a city down there no one owns.

Determined to make Rapture a superpower, you steal a nuclear weapon from a submarine investigating the plane crash. Your scientists manage to create an ICBM mounting that can hit anywhere north of the equator.

So you have a loyal populace of several thousand, all the magic ADAM makes possible, and a nuke. The year is 1960. What do you do?

[weemadando]

Stay the fuck hidden. Too many people out there would not hesitate to drop a lot of depth charges and fire a lot of torpedos if they knew even a tiniest bit of the stuff that Rapture was capable of and HAD DONE.

[Setzer]

That's what the nuke is for. It's a last ditch weapon. I figure in the 60s, if Moscow goes up in a mushroom cloud, they can't be certain it was Rapture or Washington.

hmm... what if you made a bunch of humans conditioned like Jack, and sent them to the surface? Program them to cover up info threatening to expose Rapture?

[Darth Ruinus]

Several thousand loyal people? I stay hidden, and make sure my population grows up first and cleans itself up. A few several thousand people cant fuck with the ground superpowers just yet, even with that ADAM shit in their body.

Other than that, try to get as much tech and expansion as possible. The tech down there in Rapture seemed pretty crazy from the demo I played (what with those insta-revive things?)

[NeoGoomba]

Both the CIA and KGB already had agents that had infiltrated Rapture, so they know about what has transpired until a little before Jack arrived, so the US and USSR are well aware of Rapture. You may not even have the time to develop the ICBM or replenish your population before some sort of armed incursion happens.

[nickolay1]

The idea that an ICBM can be developed with the industrial base of a fucking underwater city is utterly preposterous.

...but in 1960?


That must be the stupidest thing I've heard all week. Did you just undergo a goddamned lobotomy?

[Darkevilme]

An underwater city the size of rapture that was somehow built without the world at large truly knowing about it, and the population for such was moved there without the world at large truely knowing about it. Also Rapture was buil t between world war two and 1960.

Doing preposterous shit is not without precedent as far as Rapture is concerned.

[Setzer]

The idea that an ICBM can be developed with the industrial base of a fucking underwater city is utterly preposterous.

...but in 1960?


That must be the stupidest thing I've heard all week. Did you just undergo a goddamned lobotomy?

They have genetic engineering that can create teleporting, fire throwing invisible men in 1960. They have heat seeking RPGs in 1960. They have automated turrets and security cameras in 1960. They have growth acceleration and mental conditioning techniques that can't be broken without the appropriate antidotes.

It's in the game. If you don't like it, take it up with the designers. Compared to all the shit we see in the game, an ICBM being made a decade or two early is small potatoes.

And Neogoomba, when did it say Rapture was infiltrated? I know Andrew Ryan feared that, and had suspicions your character was a foreign agent, but I hear nothing about any nations actually finding Rapture.

Should the Vita-chambers be reconfigured to revive everyone? If so, will an ADAM based Hydraulic despotism be enough to keep control?

[Peptuck]

Should the Vita-chambers be reconfigured to revive everyone? If so, will an ADAM based Hydraulic despotism be enough to keep control?

More importantly, can the Vita-chambers be modified to clone people? If they can, you could just stamp out an army of whatever personnel you need pretty quickly.

I haven't played Bioshock yet, so I'm not sure if they can, but that would be pretty useful for any world-domination schemes.

[Darkevilme]

Well Jack was forcegrown from embryo to adulthood inside a year complete with memory implantation so there is at least that method to make people with. Then again it might not be doable on a mass scale. And the one who did the memory implantation got stepped on by a big daddy so there may be gaps in the knowledge available.

[Setzer]

http://bioshock.wikia.com/wiki/The_Vita_Chamber

Initial Deployment, Vita Chamber/Client Ryan Industries Stage one is complete. Sinclair and Alexander tried to explain the science to me, but Suchong does not believe them. They keep saying plasmid reconstruction this and quantum entanglement that, and then poof, dead people come back to life. Bullshit! Of course, Ryan will only allow it to be tuned to his genetic frequencies for the testing...

They never really explain how it works. They don't really ladle on the technobabble, it was more a case of "this is what that does, let's play the game." If you could find Suchong's notes, you could probably find some way to adapt the memory implantation setup.

On the other hand, the Vita chambers might prove unnecessary for anything besides accidents. With the regenerative properties of ADAM, there's really no threat from disease or old age. That's why Medical Pavilion was full of plastic surgeons and dentists. Cosmetic medicine became the only profitable sort to practice.

[FOG3]

They have genetic engineering that can create teleporting, fire throwing invisible men in 1960.

They can do things that violate the laws of physics because of game mechanics, the horror, the horror. And of how much real utility are these guys given they failed to assure the destruction of one semicompetant humanoid organic?

They have heat seeking RPGs in 1960.

And? Sidewinder was noteworthy for being low technology and inexpensive, not to mention in service as of 1956. A basic IR seeker head isn't exactly complicated or large.

Of course the not so minor problem is that means you've automated it to target the tanks radiator and engine block, which isn't about to mission kill it anytime soon. There's a reason such extravagances aren't used in the real world.

They have automated turrets and security cameras in 1960.

And? If they're anything like almost all the other autoturrets in FPS, an IR head would do. Of course if there isn't a lack of real IFF, may I ask for your evidence there is not someone sitting down with a bank of screens with camera feeds somewhere?

They have growth acceleration and mental conditioning techniques that can't be broken without the appropriate antidotes.

Which means what?

Furthermore may I point out the entire idea they could lure a boomer and its SLBMs in is laughable. That is so utterly not their job. Fast Attacks don't carry nuclear warheads.

1960s is an interesting decade to pick for this given we were going the nuclear depth charge route right around then.

[FOG3]

Nevermind SSBN-598 George Washington, the first SSBN didn't go out with her Polaris missiles until mid-November 1960. 1200 Nautical Miles is all Polaris is rated for. I kind of doubt a bunch of druggies with a few, now dead, bright stars are going to improve the gyro-guidance system with no real testing even if we humor the idea SSBN-598 would bother going anywhere near the place. Nuclear sub refers to the reactor, not the payload btw.

Peak population: several thousand? And this flies as a viable force on the same forum that nails Traviss for her minimalist tendencies?

[Darkevilme]

They have genetic engineering that can create teleporting, fire throwing invisible men in 1960.

They can do things that violate the laws of physics because of game mechanics, the horror, the horror. And of how much real utility are these guys given they failed to assure the destruction of one semicompetant humanoid organic?

A semicompetent humanoid organic who wasnt permanently killable, had a genetic key to all the locked down transportation systems and by the time any serious obstacles turned up was an armoured skinned superstrengthed genetic engineered monster who had a magical hand that shoots bees. Also just cause it happens in a game is no reason to discount the splicer abilities. The fact that the only enemy in the game with outright magical powers is the Houdini splicer and he's limited to cackling menacingly, teleporting and lobbing firebolts is however.

They have heat seeking RPGs in 1960.

And? Sidewinder was noteworthy for being low technology and inexpensive, not to mention in service as of 1956. A basic IR seeker head isn't exactly complicated or large.

Of course the not so minor problem is that means you've automated it to target the tanks radiator and engine block, which isn't about to mission kill it anytime soon. There's a reason such extravagances aren't used in the real world.

the missiles are about the size of a handgrenade but admittedly werent made for shooting at tanks as tanks are somewhat thin on the ground a mile beneath the ocean in an underwater city.

They have automated turrets and security cameras in 1960.

And? If they're anything like almost all the other autoturrets in FPS, an IR head would do. Of course if there isn't a lack of real IFF, may I ask for your evidence there is not someone sitting down with a bank of screens with camera feeds somewhere?

Cameras, turrets and bots are all hackable by Jack(and have IFF) and can be fooled with the security bullseye plasmid which consists of a bunch of blue fireflies it seems. There's clearly not a person in the control loop. specially as that'd mean there's someone controlling each of the little mini gun toting helibots.

They have growth acceleration and mental conditioning techniques that can't be broken without the appropriate antidotes.

Which means what?

Furthermore may I point out the entire idea they could lure a boomer and its SLBMs in is laughable. That is so utterly not their job. Fast Attacks don't carry nuclear warheads.

1960s is an interesting decade to pick for this given we were going the nuclear depth charge route right around then.

1960 is when Bioshock is set and when they canonically if you go by the bad ending ambushed a nuclear missile armed submarine that was skimming all the wreckage from the plane at the lighthouse above Rapture....for some reason.

As for population, admittedly several thousand means that in Jack's shoes the best bet is to just keep the nuke and do what Andrew Ryan did and keep quiet about Rapture as far as the surface is concerned. And i think several thousand is how many is left in the city after the whole civil war business. Which means that Jack's gonna be spending a long time organizing the clean up and getting the leaks fixed.

On an unrelated note to the above I got the impression from Tenenbraum's explaination of Adam that more of the stuff only staves off further mental deteroriation for a time not reverse the process. Then again that might just be me buying into the atmosphere.

[K. A. Pital]

Bioshock is fucking stupid, but that aside, I'd want to stay low due to the reasons already posted.

Also, I'd totally change Rapture's ideology

[Zixinus]

On an unrelated note to the above I got the impression from Tenenbraum's explaination of Adam that more of the stuff only staves off further mental deteroriation for a time not reverse the process. Then again that might just be me buying into the atmosphere.

I recall that Adam and the genetic instability is what causes the mental and organ instability. Which means that even with a big supply of Adam, everyone pretty much remains a psychotic nutter.

The only remotely sane people left in Rapture is Tenenbraum and the kids and possibly the Big Daddys. There may be no way to restore the sanity of the splicers, unless the Adam-induced gene splicing can be undone.

[Darkevilme]

Tenenbaum, Adam explained
Adam acts like a benign cancer, destroying native cells and replacing them with unstable stem versions. While this very instability is what gives it its amazing properties, it is also what causes the cosmetic and mental damage. You need more and more Adam just to keep back the tide. From a medical standpoint, this is catastrophic. From a business standpoint, well... Fontaine sees the possibilities.

As I interpreted it once you've started taking adam if you dont get more your mind starts to deteriorate. More Adam stops this deterioration for a while but also means you need even more adam next time to stop the mental decay.

And the big daddies considering they're programmed and stuff are probably only sane in the sense of acting predictably.

[Setzer]

Dammit, FOG3, I don't want to waste time arguing about game mechanics. Considering that we never really see anything that isn't ingame, there's no point in it.

I never said several thousand was a viable force. I said it was Rapture's population, going from in game data.

The nuke is insurance. The surface tries to invade or attack us, we launch it.

As for ideology, sure thing Stas. You can actually learn from Fontaine. Provide food and housing for the disadvantaged, and you win their loyalty. Even without the pheromones.

I think the plasmid business needs to be regulated and strictly rationed. In time of war, everyone was splicing up with whatever they could get. That, and the inherent instability of ADAM meant that it was inevitable people would degenerate into a bunch of spliced up freaks. By strictly limiting the use of ADAM and plasmids, you can ensure that you'll never reach that point. IIRC, the tonics didn't require EVE, so you could still get all sorts of neato cosmetic and physical splicing done. I'm sure most people only bothered splicing for things like hair or bigger muscles until the war rolled around.

[Zixinus]

As I interpreted it once you've started taking adam if you dont get more your mind starts to deteriorate. More Adam stops this deterioration for a while but also means you need even more adam next time to stop the mental decay.

It doesn't say that it will REPAIR the mental decay. Just that it will stop it. The mental decay is pretty severe by the time Jack shows around.

And the big daddies considering they're programmed and stuff are probably only sane in the sense of acting predictably.

They're not psychotic nutters. Then again, they are more like robots then human beings.

[Darkevilme]

That was my interpretation as well Zixinus. Maybe i didnt word myself precisely enough.

[FOG3]

A semicompetent humanoid organic who wasnt permanently killable, had a genetic key to all the locked down transportation systems and by the time any serious obstacles turned up was an armoured skinned superstrengthed genetic engineered monster who had a magical hand that shoots bees. Also just cause it happens in a game is no reason to discount the splicer abilities. The fact that the only enemy in the game with outright magical powers is the Houdini splicer and he's limited to cackling menacingly, teleporting and lobbing firebolts is however.

BS. They used the same game mechanics as SS2. He can respawn thanks to the machines, but it's still one guy, and if not for game mechanics they could turn the respawn machines off or blow them up. What? Are you trying to argue these things would be a serious issue to serious military force?

Look buddy you want to prove they're super engineers, prove it. Don't start weaseling when someone who understands said tech nails the argument to the wall.

Dammit, FOG3, I don't want to waste time arguing about game mechanics. Considering that we never really see anything that isn't ingame, there's no point in it.

Then don't make a big point out of how awesome the teleporter baddie is.

I never said several thousand was a viable force. I said it was Rapture's population, going from in game data.

Didn't you? Is not this thread about them being a threat to the two major superpowers in 1960? Did you not put major emphasis on their deranged augmented troops? Troops according to the game are mostly rather pathetic, I might add.

One guy seriously hyped up is not representative of what little it might actually help them. Their production capacity is afterall limited and not easily augmented. Especially as this ending involves some of them being killed.

The nuke is insurance. The surface tries to invade or attack us, we launch it.

Us is it? Someone seems to have been sitting in front of a screen.

Those warheads are locked, buddy. If SSBN-598 disappeared on its maiden voyage let me assure you the entire US Navy would be swarming over the area. Plus if they did break mission to investigate such a thing they would report such, so they'd know exactly where it was. This little underwater city wouldn't have enough time to make any progress cracking the boxes before the Navy figured out where they were and got down to deciding just how to go about dealing with it.

[Darkevilme]

Personally i reckon the teleport baddy as a masked psychotic capable of teleportation and lobbing firebolts is at best a terror weapon unleashed on civilians. Considering there's a slight delay between smoke and the houdini appearing i imagine they wouldnt last long against anyone actually military despite the fact that all Splicers are extraordinarily tough.

Everything else barring the big daddies is naff except for defence.

Though fog has made me just realize an important fact, why if Andrew Ryan was so keen on keeping Rapture a secret did he build a stonking huge lighthouse full of statues of himself above the city as what's practically an advertisement.

Though the other point makes the whole super engineer business tricky as yeah at the very least the US would have the submarines last known course and location and Andrew Ryan despite harping on about secrecy built a damned lighthouse ontop of Rapture it shouldnt take them too long to find.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

All you need is a nuclear depth charge, and all that fancy tech would be useless.

Rapture located at the bottom of the ocean simply is surrounded by rocks as it sits on a hard place.

[Zixinus]

What I would do, is do the good ending and come back for as much as possible blueprints and the like. There is no way to save Rapture: even if you can somehow magically repair the splicers, the people that could know how to repair the massive damage done to the city are dead. Killed either by the Ryan vs Fountain war or by you.

The only hope is to find the blueprints that made the various machinery of Rapture and even what allowed it built. With the pheromones making you control the splicers, that may be a fairly easy task.

There is also the idea of using the Big Daddys. Maybe you can reprogram them to your favor, even restore some of their host intellect.

On that note, was it ever explained how you donned the Big Daddy suit in the ending, especially the good ending? Did Jack raise the gals while wearing a diver suit? Now there is an amusing image.

If I would have done that, I would have made a new Rapture or rebuild the existing one. This time, with no Adam. The thing is way too much of a liability, its a big social ticking bomb due to its addictive nature. Maybe take a few sea slugs for research to find a way around that. But make it a top secret and ban it for civil use.

That was my interpretation as well Zixinus. Maybe i didnt word myself precisely enough.

I originally meant that the audio log could also be interpreted that Adam is what causes the mental instability in the first place. What makes Adam wonderful also makes it a liability.

[Setzer]

BS. They used the same game mechanics as SS2. He can respawn thanks to the machines, but it's still one guy, and if not for game mechanics they could turn the respawn machines off or blow them up. What? Are you trying to argue these things would be a serious issue to serious military force?

Look buddy you want to prove they're super engineers, prove it. Don't start weaseling when someone who understands said tech nails the argument to the wall.

There's only one Vita chamber in the game that was turned off. That was the one in Andrew Ryan's office. Pretty much everything in Rapture that's locked down can only be used by Ryan or a relative. The only one who can change vital systems in Rapture is someone with Ryan's DNA. It's not just game mechanics. Also, only a few splicers are armed with explosives, and they're really more concerned with getting ADAM then with blowing up Vita chambers.

Then don't make a big point out of how awesome the teleporter baddie is.

I wasn't making a big point out of it. I was just saying, if they can create things like teleportation and invisibility plasmids, then there's no real leap showing them creating an ICBM, a piece of tech we know to be possible.

Didn't you? Is not this thread about them being a threat to the two major superpowers in 1960? Did you not put major emphasis on their deranged augmented troops? Troops according to the game are mostly rather pathetic, I might add.

It's a what if about making Rapture a world power.

One guy seriously hyped up is not representative of what little it might actually help them. Their production capacity is afterall limited and not easily augmented. Especially as this ending involves some of them being killed.

Handwave. Rapture rebuilds itself into a functional society. That's the point. Move past the OP.

Us is it? Someone seems to have been sitting in front of a screen.

Us as in the city of Rapture. Stop taking everything so literally.

Those warheads are locked, buddy. If SSBN-598 disappeared on its maiden voyage let me assure you the entire US Navy would be swarming over the area. Plus if they did break mission to investigate such a thing they would report such, so they'd know exactly where it was. This little underwater city wouldn't have enough time to make any progress cracking the boxes before the Navy figured out where they were and got down to deciding just how to go about dealing with it.

I'm waving my fucking hands to give Rapture a nuke. Didn't my OP convey that? Do you have anything to contribute besides "Wah wah, u is teh suck!11"? If you don't like the OP, don't post in the thread.