Sci-Fi events of complete dickery created by lazy writers
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Sci-Fi events of complete dickery created by lazy writers
Okay, the talk of the Endor Holocaust got me thinking. Overall the death of thousands if not millions of Ewoks after the destruction of DS2 makes the rebellion look like complete dicks.
Of course this was not intent. It was merely lazy writing for ROTJ where the authors did not think out completely what they wrote.
So where else have we seen this happen? I have one other example that comes to mind. What else can we come up with?
1. Endor Holocaust - We all know about this.
2. Stargate Atlantis ignores runners - In an episode Ronan is recaptured by the Wraith. He is reimplanted with a tracking device and dropped on his homeworld to be hunted again.
Rodney uses Atlantis sensors to find the tracking device and in the process spots several other runners. No mention is ever made of these other runners and they immediatly run off to save Ronan.
Talk about dicks. They know from Ronan how brutal the life of a runner is. They also know that when runners meet other people those people have a habit of being culled. Finally they can logically deduce that the Wraith only make runners out of foes they would consider a challenge. They might not all be uber Ronan clones but most if not all will be skilled fighters of the Wraith. No mention of helping these runners is ever made and in fact they are ignored beyond pointing out that they exist.
Of course this was not intent. It was merely lazy writing for ROTJ where the authors did not think out completely what they wrote.
So where else have we seen this happen? I have one other example that comes to mind. What else can we come up with?
1. Endor Holocaust - We all know about this.
2. Stargate Atlantis ignores runners - In an episode Ronan is recaptured by the Wraith. He is reimplanted with a tracking device and dropped on his homeworld to be hunted again.
Rodney uses Atlantis sensors to find the tracking device and in the process spots several other runners. No mention is ever made of these other runners and they immediatly run off to save Ronan.
Talk about dicks. They know from Ronan how brutal the life of a runner is. They also know that when runners meet other people those people have a habit of being culled. Finally they can logically deduce that the Wraith only make runners out of foes they would consider a challenge. They might not all be uber Ronan clones but most if not all will be skilled fighters of the Wraith. No mention of helping these runners is ever made and in fact they are ignored beyond pointing out that they exist.
- Darth Hoth
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The Rebels in general in SW have a notably bad record in this regard, basically ignoring the deaths of billions on Byss and outright sanctioning Kyp Durron's planet-destroying little crusade. Both due to lazy writers who could not be bothered to assess the moral consequences of what their "heroes" did.
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-George "Evil" Lucas
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Kyp Durron always pissed me the fuck off.
"Hi, I'm a genocidal, mass-murdering asshole who exterminated more people than Tarkin for no reason other than being pissed that my brother got drafted and I was imprisoned, and I betrayed the only people who tried to be my friends. I'm sorry. We cool now?"
"Yeah, we're cool. Run along and learn how to harness your magical powers of destruction."
"Sweet."
Oh, and let's not forget how the GFFA decided to make Daala, the queen bitch who is not only a mass-murdering, genocidal terrorist herself, but an INCOMPETENT mass-murdering, genocidal terrorist who blames her repeated failures (via gross acts of stupidity) on others and claims it's all because they're biased against women, the fucking leader of their armed forces. Brilliant. Absolutely brilliant.
Thanks Traviss. Thanks a fucking lot, you talentless hack.
"Hi, I'm a genocidal, mass-murdering asshole who exterminated more people than Tarkin for no reason other than being pissed that my brother got drafted and I was imprisoned, and I betrayed the only people who tried to be my friends. I'm sorry. We cool now?"
"Yeah, we're cool. Run along and learn how to harness your magical powers of destruction."
"Sweet."
Oh, and let's not forget how the GFFA decided to make Daala, the queen bitch who is not only a mass-murdering, genocidal terrorist herself, but an INCOMPETENT mass-murdering, genocidal terrorist who blames her repeated failures (via gross acts of stupidity) on others and claims it's all because they're biased against women, the fucking leader of their armed forces. Brilliant. Absolutely brilliant.
Thanks Traviss. Thanks a fucking lot, you talentless hack.
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Oh, and we shouldn't forget the multiple instances of genocide, or at least excusing the extinction/mass death of an entire sentient species in Star Trek.
Picard does this not once, but TWICE.
First he refuses to rescue any natives from a primitive planet when natural disaster is threatening to wipe them out. He then finds that Worf's brother (the Russian one) has rescued a handful of them anyway, decides that idly standing by while billions die is ok but beaming a couple dozen out into space is just too mean, and goes through an elaborate hoax to keep them from learning they're in space while taking them to another planet they can settle. Note that Picard only acts to save these people when the alternative is to actively kill them; doing nothing and letting everyone die is fine, as long as HIS hands aren't dirty.
The second time, it's an industrialized species that at least has radios. Once again, Picard is perfectly willing to sit on his ass and let them all die, even though it would be the work of a couple minutes to save them all and they'd never realize what happened. Data finally guilts him into it by making him listen to a little girl beg them for help and he reluctantly saves the day.
Sisko, to my knowledge, was never party to genocide, but he certainly was party to assassination.
Janeway did this a couple times, but the one that stands out to me the most is the planet of the Brazilian soccer players. These people got blown up by their experimental power source and Janeway doesn't give a shit. Then when she and Paris get sent back in time a couple days before it happens, Paris asks if they should warn the people so they can prevent the explosion and Janeway outright refuses. That's right, bitch. Look these people in the eye, knowing that they will all die in a couple days and that you could save them all, and yet do nothing. That's colder than Picard ever was. She finally averts the disaster to save her own ass! And when the magic reset button is pushed and Voyager is flying by, they STILL don't tell these people that their power source is a ticking time bomb that will destroy all life on their planet if you so much as poke it with a sharp stick!
Archer and Phlox do the same thing. Aliens who are dying out from a disease ask for help, Archer and Phlox agree to help them, and Phlox makes a cure that will solve everything. Then he refuses to give it to them, based on the flimsiest rationale ever in television history. And Archer buys into it too! "Hey guys, sorry your entire species will go extinct in two hundred years, and I know we promised to make you a cure for it and we actually did, but we're not going to give it to you because, um... Quantum. Bye."
What a bunch of dicks. And this doesn't even get into the Starfleet captains and admirals who killed every male member of a sentient species, tried to take over the Federation in a military coup and become dictators, or murder sentient beings for fuel.
Picard does this not once, but TWICE.
First he refuses to rescue any natives from a primitive planet when natural disaster is threatening to wipe them out. He then finds that Worf's brother (the Russian one) has rescued a handful of them anyway, decides that idly standing by while billions die is ok but beaming a couple dozen out into space is just too mean, and goes through an elaborate hoax to keep them from learning they're in space while taking them to another planet they can settle. Note that Picard only acts to save these people when the alternative is to actively kill them; doing nothing and letting everyone die is fine, as long as HIS hands aren't dirty.
The second time, it's an industrialized species that at least has radios. Once again, Picard is perfectly willing to sit on his ass and let them all die, even though it would be the work of a couple minutes to save them all and they'd never realize what happened. Data finally guilts him into it by making him listen to a little girl beg them for help and he reluctantly saves the day.
Sisko, to my knowledge, was never party to genocide, but he certainly was party to assassination.
Janeway did this a couple times, but the one that stands out to me the most is the planet of the Brazilian soccer players. These people got blown up by their experimental power source and Janeway doesn't give a shit. Then when she and Paris get sent back in time a couple days before it happens, Paris asks if they should warn the people so they can prevent the explosion and Janeway outright refuses. That's right, bitch. Look these people in the eye, knowing that they will all die in a couple days and that you could save them all, and yet do nothing. That's colder than Picard ever was. She finally averts the disaster to save her own ass! And when the magic reset button is pushed and Voyager is flying by, they STILL don't tell these people that their power source is a ticking time bomb that will destroy all life on their planet if you so much as poke it with a sharp stick!
Archer and Phlox do the same thing. Aliens who are dying out from a disease ask for help, Archer and Phlox agree to help them, and Phlox makes a cure that will solve everything. Then he refuses to give it to them, based on the flimsiest rationale ever in television history. And Archer buys into it too! "Hey guys, sorry your entire species will go extinct in two hundred years, and I know we promised to make you a cure for it and we actually did, but we're not going to give it to you because, um... Quantum. Bye."
What a bunch of dicks. And this doesn't even get into the Starfleet captains and admirals who killed every male member of a sentient species, tried to take over the Federation in a military coup and become dictators, or murder sentient beings for fuel.
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Re: Sci-Fi events of complete dickery created by lazy writer
Uhh... what do you propose the Alliance should have done instead? Not blown up the Death Star?Timotheus wrote:Okay, the talk of the Endor Holocaust got me thinking. Overall the death of thousands if not millions of Ewoks after the destruction of DS2 makes the rebellion look like complete dicks.
Of course this was not intent. It was merely lazy writing for ROTJ where the authors did not think out completely what they wrote.
"There is no "taboo" on using nuclear weapons." -Julhelm
What is Project Zohar?
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"On a serious note (well not really) I did sometimes jump in and rate nBSG episodes a '5' before the episode even aired or I saw it." - RogueIce explaining that episode ratings on SDN tv show threads are bunk
- NecronLord
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Re: Sci-Fi events of complete dickery created by lazy writer
You do realise there's dozens of teams operating out of Atlantis? That's the kind of thing that gets pensioned off to other people, I would assume. Just because the writers are lazy, doesn't mean we have to assume the characters are.Timotheus wrote:2. Stargate Atlantis ignores runners - In an episode Ronan is recaptured by the Wraith. He is reimplanted with a tracking device and dropped on his homeworld to be hunted again.
Rodney uses Atlantis sensors to find the tracking device and in the process spots several other runners. No mention is ever made of these other runners and they immediatly run off to save Ronan.
Talk about dicks. They know from Ronan how brutal the life of a runner is. They also know that when runners meet other people those people have a habit of being culled. Finally they can logically deduce that the Wraith only make runners out of foes they would consider a challenge. They might not all be uber Ronan clones but most if not all will be skilled fighters of the Wraith. No mention of helping these runners is ever made and in fact they are ignored beyond pointing out that they exist.
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The Wanted movie has a scene on a train in Italy, derailing on a narrow bridge over an abyss. The hero nearly dies, but is magically rescued. The entire rest of the passengers on the train die a rather terrifying death, partly the fault of the main characters, but never mind, they weren't important, eh?
"So you want to live on a planet?"
"No. I think I'd find it a bit small and wierd."
"Aren't they dangerous? Don't they get hit by stuff?"
"No. I think I'd find it a bit small and wierd."
"Aren't they dangerous? Don't they get hit by stuff?"
Wasn't the incident with Byss an accident as the Empire was going to fire and the Eclipse rammed into it, resulting in "The Empire Shot itself in the heart" quote one of the Rebels said?Darth Hoth wrote:Both due to lazy writers who could not be bothered to assess the moral consequences of what their "heroes" did.
But yes I am surprised the Empire didn't try to use Byss and Carida as propaganda against the New Republic (or we didn't hear of it).
I remember someone on TFN's forums saying/suggesting they didn't go in the open about that because they'd get lynched by the survivors of Alderaan, etc and the others who were screwed by the Empire (if it was on a New Republic planet)
I also wonder about Carida and the like, didn't the New Republic government basically mention to Kyp that he did kill billions of people during his rampage and ask him if that effected him in any way? Something tells me the New Republic generals didn't care/were happy about it (Leia mentions in one of the Jedi Academy trilogy books that many 'old-school' generals wanted to simply fuck up the Imperial fortress worlds/holdouts.
Alien Resurrection. When they crashed the Auriga into Earth they gave us a nice big pretty explosion visible from space, blissfully ignorant of the implications of such a huge explosion.
As I recall the ship crashed into a region that appeared to be the east coast of either Africa or India. If it was India it had to be gigaton range, and if it was Africa teraton range, to appear as big as it did. Either way I'm pretty sure they killed way more people in the blast than the aliens probably ever would have.
Honestly would it have killed them to drive the ship into the Moon instead?
As I recall the ship crashed into a region that appeared to be the east coast of either Africa or India. If it was India it had to be gigaton range, and if it was Africa teraton range, to appear as big as it did. Either way I'm pretty sure they killed way more people in the blast than the aliens probably ever would have.
Honestly would it have killed them to drive the ship into the Moon instead?
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Well, yes, basically, but I would at least expect them to be "dismayed at the collateral damage they were causing", as Han was over the ship he blew up in some junkyard. It was they who sabotaged it, after all, and it killed billions of innocents.Saxtonite wrote:Wasn't the incident with Byss an accident as the Empire was going to fire and the Eclipse rammed into it, resulting in "The Empire Shot itself in the heart" quote one of the Rebels said?
"But there's no story past Episode VI, there's just no story. It's a certain story about Anakin Skywalker and once Anakin Skywalker dies, that's kind of the end of the story. There is no story about Luke Skywalker, I mean apart from the books."
-George "Evil" Lucas
-George "Evil" Lucas
Atlantis Expedition
Earth pulled two ships out of the Milky Way on a risky mission to engage and destroy as many replicators as possible because humans were now under direct threat from the Asurans. In a prolonged (for Stargate) campaign that involved multiple sorties, 304s destroyed several ships. When the Asurans adapted to the tactic, they worked out a plan that would finish them off once and for all. They hunted them down like the threat they most obviously were.
The Wraith, on the other hand, deserve no such attention, especially being no less of a threat to humans. Finding new ways to track down and destroy their ships doesn't seem to be a priority. They're lucky if they have 1 ship in Pegasus at a time (this past week they apparently had none save for the one that appeared from an alternate reality), and it just doesn't feel like they are doing all they can to wipe the Wraith out. I can only assume the writers feel as though biological life is worth more than technological, even if they're space vampires.
The Wraith are the ultimate scourge. While a Goa'uld could technically live without a host in a pool or in an Unas, a Wraith can't live without the food humans provide. It's either "us" or "them", but no one seems particularly worried about it. Meanwhile, defenseless primitive societies continue to be used for dinner.
If I were in a primitive society and I saw the expedition, with their powerful weapons, great defense shields, and opulent living, I would wonder why they hadn't worked night and day for Wraith Raid, kills Wraith Dead.
I have forgotten, and I'm sure Necron will come around and remind me, but did the Wraith do something to their ships so they are no longer able to be tracked via the computer device that the Genni stole? I can't remember, but it seems like they must have.
Earth pulled two ships out of the Milky Way on a risky mission to engage and destroy as many replicators as possible because humans were now under direct threat from the Asurans. In a prolonged (for Stargate) campaign that involved multiple sorties, 304s destroyed several ships. When the Asurans adapted to the tactic, they worked out a plan that would finish them off once and for all. They hunted them down like the threat they most obviously were.
The Wraith, on the other hand, deserve no such attention, especially being no less of a threat to humans. Finding new ways to track down and destroy their ships doesn't seem to be a priority. They're lucky if they have 1 ship in Pegasus at a time (this past week they apparently had none save for the one that appeared from an alternate reality), and it just doesn't feel like they are doing all they can to wipe the Wraith out. I can only assume the writers feel as though biological life is worth more than technological, even if they're space vampires.
The Wraith are the ultimate scourge. While a Goa'uld could technically live without a host in a pool or in an Unas, a Wraith can't live without the food humans provide. It's either "us" or "them", but no one seems particularly worried about it. Meanwhile, defenseless primitive societies continue to be used for dinner.
If I were in a primitive society and I saw the expedition, with their powerful weapons, great defense shields, and opulent living, I would wonder why they hadn't worked night and day for Wraith Raid, kills Wraith Dead.
I have forgotten, and I'm sure Necron will come around and remind me, but did the Wraith do something to their ships so they are no longer able to be tracked via the computer device that the Genni stole? I can't remember, but it seems like they must have.
It's Jodan, not Jordan. If you can't quote it right, I will mock you.
It's supposed to be the ship blowing up during re-entry, rather than physically crashing into the ground (otherwise, it's be a very large ship), although I agree the effects shot makes it look like that.Junghalli wrote:Alien Resurrection. When they crashed the Auriga into Earth they gave us a nice big pretty explosion visible from space, blissfully ignorant of the implications of such a huge explosion.
unsigned
Oh yeah, the crew of the Millennium Falcon all shouting "LONG LIVE THE NEW REPUBLIC" as they all jump out was possibly not fitting in then without the dismay and sorrow as you mentioned. Alternatively, Han could have the opinion that it was mainly military targets (orbiting defense platforms, big-ass fleet in orbit that decreased somewhat, bases on ground, etc.) based off his short excursions on the planet and didn't see much civilians. Or he was simply excited and trying to flee the area and had andreanaline and was happy that he blew up the target; the other effects might not have fit in.Darth Hoth wrote:Well, yes, basically, but I would at least expect them to be "dismayed at the collateral damage they were causing", as Han was over the ship he blew up in some junkyard. It was they who sabotaged it, after all, and it killed billions of innocents.
CaptJodan wrote:Atlantis Expedition
Earth pulled two ships out of the Milky Way on a risky mission to engage and destroy as many replicators as possible because humans were now under direct threat from the Asurans. In a prolonged (for Stargate) campaign that involved multiple sorties, 304s destroyed several ships. When the Asurans adapted to the tactic, they worked out a plan that would finish them off once and for all. They hunted them down like the threat they most obviously were.
The Wraith, on the other hand, deserve no such attention, especially being no less of a threat to humans. Finding new ways to track down and destroy their ships doesn't seem to be a priority. They're lucky if they have 1 ship in Pegasus at a time (this past week they apparently had none save for the one that appeared from an alternate reality), and it just doesn't feel like they are doing all they can to wipe the Wraith out. I can only assume the writers feel as though biological life is worth more than technological, even if they're space vampires.
The Wraith are the ultimate scourge. While a Goa'uld could technically live without a host in a pool or in an Unas, a Wraith can't live without the food humans provide. It's either "us" or "them", but no one seems particularly worried about it. Meanwhile, defenseless primitive societies continue to be used for dinner.
If I were in a primitive society and I saw the expedition, with their powerful weapons, great defense shields, and opulent living, I would wonder why they hadn't worked night and day for Wraith Raid, kills Wraith Dead.
I have forgotten, and I'm sure Necron will come around and remind me, but did the Wraith do something to their ships so they are no longer able to be tracked via the computer device that the Genni stole? I can't remember, but it seems like they must have.
The difference here is scale and responsibility. The Asurans were killing thousands of humans every day. The Wraith feed on a slower scale. So while dead is dead the Asurans were a more immediate threat and had to be dealth with faster.
Also the Asurans were on their rampage because Rodney reactivated their "kill all Wraith" programming. Stargate has always been big on clean up your own messes and feeling guilty over something that might even be only vaguely their fault.
The Wraith on the other hand have been in Pegasus for thousands of years and while they kill millions of humans they probably do not kill off any more than the System Lords did in their endless wars against each other and wave attacks using Jaffa.
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The lobby scene in the Matrix. Imagine this:
You're a security guard working long hours in a building. You're trying to support your family on your small income and boredom is a serious issue on the job. Here come a couple of people wearing trench coats and shades. Dang Hot Topic punks. Ok, give 'em the usual check before letting them in and-
What the fuck, that asshole just unloaded a machine gun into me and then killed all my buddies. Thanks a lot, fucker. Oh, you're here to rescue your friend? Well, by all means then, go and ahead and MURDER anyone who gets into your path without any warning, mercy, or hesitation.
Then they kill the SWAT team that went in after the pair of psychopaths who just hosed a couple rent-a-cops. Then they blow up part of the building for no discernable reason.
Now imagine this: you're a single mom, raising a kid, you need money after paying for your husband's funeral, you're working two jobs, and you happen to glance out the window at the office where you work as a secretary just before a fucking helicopter comes through it and messily splatters you like a gerbil in a blender. Then it explodes and kills all your co-workers too.
Neo, Trinity, and Morpheus ride off into the sunset, blissfully ignoring the innocent lives they just snuffed out, either unintentionally or quite deliberately.
These are the assholes who are supposed to save humanity? Look, if saving me from the machines involves KILLING ME and anyone else who happens to be present when you're waltzing through the area, do me a favor: go fuck yourself and drop the 'hero' schtick.
Every time I bring this up to a Matrix fan, they excuse it by "well, those people could have been turned into agents at any time". Yeah, and anyone in this country during the Cold War could have been a Russian spy, but we didn't fucking exterminate the entire population "just in case", now did we.
How about all the poor people just driving to work/home or taking their families on vacation who got shot, blown up, wrecked, or otherwise horribly maimed and killed during the highway chase?
Gosh those movies sucked. And not just because the so-called heroes were total dicks.
You're a security guard working long hours in a building. You're trying to support your family on your small income and boredom is a serious issue on the job. Here come a couple of people wearing trench coats and shades. Dang Hot Topic punks. Ok, give 'em the usual check before letting them in and-
What the fuck, that asshole just unloaded a machine gun into me and then killed all my buddies. Thanks a lot, fucker. Oh, you're here to rescue your friend? Well, by all means then, go and ahead and MURDER anyone who gets into your path without any warning, mercy, or hesitation.
Then they kill the SWAT team that went in after the pair of psychopaths who just hosed a couple rent-a-cops. Then they blow up part of the building for no discernable reason.
Now imagine this: you're a single mom, raising a kid, you need money after paying for your husband's funeral, you're working two jobs, and you happen to glance out the window at the office where you work as a secretary just before a fucking helicopter comes through it and messily splatters you like a gerbil in a blender. Then it explodes and kills all your co-workers too.
Neo, Trinity, and Morpheus ride off into the sunset, blissfully ignoring the innocent lives they just snuffed out, either unintentionally or quite deliberately.
These are the assholes who are supposed to save humanity? Look, if saving me from the machines involves KILLING ME and anyone else who happens to be present when you're waltzing through the area, do me a favor: go fuck yourself and drop the 'hero' schtick.
Every time I bring this up to a Matrix fan, they excuse it by "well, those people could have been turned into agents at any time". Yeah, and anyone in this country during the Cold War could have been a Russian spy, but we didn't fucking exterminate the entire population "just in case", now did we.
How about all the poor people just driving to work/home or taking their families on vacation who got shot, blown up, wrecked, or otherwise horribly maimed and killed during the highway chase?
Gosh those movies sucked. And not just because the so-called heroes were total dicks.
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- PREDATOR490
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I think the largest source of complete dickery in Stargate is the Ancients. This actually increases even more when they are Ascended. The Ancients were going to sit back and allow Anubis to completely exterminate all life in the Milky Way just to punish Oma Desala.
Stargate Atlantis has really begun to become a source of dickery in it's actions. They clearly have a massive technological advantage to the Wraith and could easily inflict decimating amounts of damage easily but we have seen little indication of them actually attacking the Wraith. The policy of the IOA seems to prefer isolationism so they can tear Atlantis apart for it's technology and the surrounding galaxy.
In both situations the writers have created this situation through laziness in their writing and lack of understanding in what they are doing. The Ancient / Ascended situation easily being the worst part of Stargate to introduce.
Stargate Atlantis has really begun to become a source of dickery in it's actions. They clearly have a massive technological advantage to the Wraith and could easily inflict decimating amounts of damage easily but we have seen little indication of them actually attacking the Wraith. The policy of the IOA seems to prefer isolationism so they can tear Atlantis apart for it's technology and the surrounding galaxy.
In both situations the writers have created this situation through laziness in their writing and lack of understanding in what they are doing. The Ancient / Ascended situation easily being the worst part of Stargate to introduce.
Let's check the trial for that one:
The Ancients in Stargate SG-1 epitomize this trope. Those that don't die off from an incredibly deadly plague evolve into Energy Beings, who refuse to help normal humans ascend save on their own merits. Fair enough, but it turns out they won't allow anyone who ascends to help humanity. In the "outstanding debts" department, they have a "kill any one species inside this galaxy" weapon they never used to kill off their enemies: the Goa'uld, the Wraith, two species of killer nanite robots, and a group of evil Energy Being cousins. Though they know rule by any one of these races means either the death or enslavement of all humanity, they won't lift a finger to help it. (Verdict: Guilty!)
* Bob wishes to object to this ruling. Because of the way they handled the Anubis business he believes that a "Guilty" verdict isn't enough, but rather something like: "Guilty, guilty scumbag Energy Beings".
* MegaTroopX concurs, with an additional charge of violating their own edict. They not only wouldn't clean up their messes (namely Anubis), they wouldn't let any other Ascended being do it either (call the witness: Daniel Jackson).
* William Wide Web would like to note that in addition to Anubis, they let supremely powerful Ori battleships and nearly-ascended humans just waltz into our galaxy on a technicality. This evidence seems to place the Ancients into "They like torturing us" territory. This is especially bad, because if the galaxy falls to the Ori, it is implied that the Ori will then attack the Ancients.
* Roxana agrees wholeheartedly with Bob. The more I learned about the Ancients, the more ashamed I was to be related to them in any way shape or form. Warts and all, humanity (AKA Stargate Command) has done more towards solving the universe's problems in a mere ten years than the Ancients did in millions.
o All in the name of a Prime Directive which they would rather uphold than survive. The term "Lawful Stupid" from Dungeons And Dragons fandom comes to mind. Would "Guilty, guilty, Lawful Stupid Energy Being scumbags" be a good verdict?
* One must also remember the cases of Orlin and Morgan Le Fay. Orlin retook human form to assist humans with the fight against an Ori plague and was punished by suffering severe brain damage that destroyed his memory and left him with the mind of a small child. This pales in comparison to Morgan Le Fay, who very carefully leaked information to the humans, while the rest of the Ancients watched her. The moment she tried to do anything but be vague, she was dragged away, never to be seen again. This behavior moves them past arrogant neglect and into sheer jerkass territory.
o I would remind my esteemed colleague that Orlin's condition is an unavoidable side effect of attempting to hold on to more knowledge than his human mind can safely contain and not due to malice on the part of the defendants. The evidence against them is damning enough without concocting additional charges, let's not let them Off On A Technicality.
* Let us not forget that the primary aspect of the Ancients non-interference pact? As long as there are no ascended powers being used. That seems reasonable. Which is why this troper thought that when Adria fully ascended, and later came down to our lowly plane of existence and acted to her full powers, that the Ancients would finally stand up and say, "No". He felt it would be a fitting end to the series, because the sheer awesomeness of the Ancients FINALLY doing something would completely balance out the somewhat literal Deus Ex Machina. Indeed, he felt it would even have made up for the mediocre 9th and 10th seasons. But alas, such was not the case. The Ancients seem to only be interested in stopping good people from interfering with the lower planes, leading another one of thier ascended friends who has had enough to make a Heroic Sacrifice. So, I vote we extend the verdict to Guilty, guilty, hypocritical Lawful Stupid Energy Being scumbags.
* Not only that, but they also left behind in the Pegasus Galaxy so many incomplete (and dangerous) pieces of technology that one wonders how do the Atlantis Expedition wasn't wiped out yet... oh yeah, Mc Kay. It includes, but it is not limited to: An energy generator not unlike the ZP Ms that instead of draining energy from an artificial universe, it does so from our own universe, and creates physic-defying particles in the process, it destroyed an (thankfully uninhabited) entire star system; an "ascend-o-matic" machine that, if not used by a nearly ascended ancient, its aggressive mutations end up killing the subject; at least one dangerous trapped being in a prison that not only would eventually lose power to keep it imprisoned, but also had a big "release" button with no failsafe measures; a machine whose purpose is making everyone in the vicinity develop exploding tumors ( I Am Not Making This Up ); viral nanites whose purpose is to kill everything that doesn't have the "Ancient Gene" stored merrily in an Atlantean lab. The list goes on. Verdict: Guilty, Guilty reckless bastards.
* As much as this troper hates to defend those guilty, hypocritical, Lawful Stupid reckless Energy Being scumbags, he feels the need to play Devil's Advocate. During Atlantis' run, at least 3 groups of never-ascended Ancients were encountered. They behaved as normal, if slightly arrogant, people. Given that they are indeed very advanced, and the circumstances under which they are encountered they are more than reasonably polite. Given that they were perfectly reasonable before ascension, it may well be that thier actions are very justified due to reasoning beyond our comprehension. While some ancients may have disagreed with this, they were VERY much in the minority. This does not excuse them in the case of Adria (Who did indeed break the exact rules Daniel was guilty of breaking), but may excuse thier behavoir in all other cases. How do you propose to challenge the logic of gods?
The Ancients in Stargate SG-1 epitomize this trope. Those that don't die off from an incredibly deadly plague evolve into Energy Beings, who refuse to help normal humans ascend save on their own merits. Fair enough, but it turns out they won't allow anyone who ascends to help humanity. In the "outstanding debts" department, they have a "kill any one species inside this galaxy" weapon they never used to kill off their enemies: the Goa'uld, the Wraith, two species of killer nanite robots, and a group of evil Energy Being cousins. Though they know rule by any one of these races means either the death or enslavement of all humanity, they won't lift a finger to help it. (Verdict: Guilty!)
* Bob wishes to object to this ruling. Because of the way they handled the Anubis business he believes that a "Guilty" verdict isn't enough, but rather something like: "Guilty, guilty scumbag Energy Beings".
* MegaTroopX concurs, with an additional charge of violating their own edict. They not only wouldn't clean up their messes (namely Anubis), they wouldn't let any other Ascended being do it either (call the witness: Daniel Jackson).
* William Wide Web would like to note that in addition to Anubis, they let supremely powerful Ori battleships and nearly-ascended humans just waltz into our galaxy on a technicality. This evidence seems to place the Ancients into "They like torturing us" territory. This is especially bad, because if the galaxy falls to the Ori, it is implied that the Ori will then attack the Ancients.
* Roxana agrees wholeheartedly with Bob. The more I learned about the Ancients, the more ashamed I was to be related to them in any way shape or form. Warts and all, humanity (AKA Stargate Command) has done more towards solving the universe's problems in a mere ten years than the Ancients did in millions.
o All in the name of a Prime Directive which they would rather uphold than survive. The term "Lawful Stupid" from Dungeons And Dragons fandom comes to mind. Would "Guilty, guilty, Lawful Stupid Energy Being scumbags" be a good verdict?
* One must also remember the cases of Orlin and Morgan Le Fay. Orlin retook human form to assist humans with the fight against an Ori plague and was punished by suffering severe brain damage that destroyed his memory and left him with the mind of a small child. This pales in comparison to Morgan Le Fay, who very carefully leaked information to the humans, while the rest of the Ancients watched her. The moment she tried to do anything but be vague, she was dragged away, never to be seen again. This behavior moves them past arrogant neglect and into sheer jerkass territory.
o I would remind my esteemed colleague that Orlin's condition is an unavoidable side effect of attempting to hold on to more knowledge than his human mind can safely contain and not due to malice on the part of the defendants. The evidence against them is damning enough without concocting additional charges, let's not let them Off On A Technicality.
* Let us not forget that the primary aspect of the Ancients non-interference pact? As long as there are no ascended powers being used. That seems reasonable. Which is why this troper thought that when Adria fully ascended, and later came down to our lowly plane of existence and acted to her full powers, that the Ancients would finally stand up and say, "No". He felt it would be a fitting end to the series, because the sheer awesomeness of the Ancients FINALLY doing something would completely balance out the somewhat literal Deus Ex Machina. Indeed, he felt it would even have made up for the mediocre 9th and 10th seasons. But alas, such was not the case. The Ancients seem to only be interested in stopping good people from interfering with the lower planes, leading another one of thier ascended friends who has had enough to make a Heroic Sacrifice. So, I vote we extend the verdict to Guilty, guilty, hypocritical Lawful Stupid Energy Being scumbags.
* Not only that, but they also left behind in the Pegasus Galaxy so many incomplete (and dangerous) pieces of technology that one wonders how do the Atlantis Expedition wasn't wiped out yet... oh yeah, Mc Kay. It includes, but it is not limited to: An energy generator not unlike the ZP Ms that instead of draining energy from an artificial universe, it does so from our own universe, and creates physic-defying particles in the process, it destroyed an (thankfully uninhabited) entire star system; an "ascend-o-matic" machine that, if not used by a nearly ascended ancient, its aggressive mutations end up killing the subject; at least one dangerous trapped being in a prison that not only would eventually lose power to keep it imprisoned, but also had a big "release" button with no failsafe measures; a machine whose purpose is making everyone in the vicinity develop exploding tumors ( I Am Not Making This Up ); viral nanites whose purpose is to kill everything that doesn't have the "Ancient Gene" stored merrily in an Atlantean lab. The list goes on. Verdict: Guilty, Guilty reckless bastards.
* As much as this troper hates to defend those guilty, hypocritical, Lawful Stupid reckless Energy Being scumbags, he feels the need to play Devil's Advocate. During Atlantis' run, at least 3 groups of never-ascended Ancients were encountered. They behaved as normal, if slightly arrogant, people. Given that they are indeed very advanced, and the circumstances under which they are encountered they are more than reasonably polite. Given that they were perfectly reasonable before ascension, it may well be that thier actions are very justified due to reasoning beyond our comprehension. While some ancients may have disagreed with this, they were VERY much in the minority. This does not excuse them in the case of Adria (Who did indeed break the exact rules Daniel was guilty of breaking), but may excuse thier behavoir in all other cases. How do you propose to challenge the logic of gods?
Not an armored Jigglypuff
"I salute your genetic superiority, now Get off my planet!!" -- Adam Stiener, 1st Somerset Strikers
PREDATOR490 wrote:I think the largest source of complete dickery in Stargate is the Ancients. This actually increases even more when they are Ascended. The Ancients were going to sit back and allow Anubis to completely exterminate all life in the Milky Way just to punish Oma Desala.
Stargate Atlantis has really begun to become a source of dickery in it's actions. They clearly have a massive technological advantage to the Wraith and could easily inflict decimating amounts of damage easily but we have seen little indication of them actually attacking the Wraith. The policy of the IOA seems to prefer isolationism so they can tear Atlantis apart for it's technology and the surrounding galaxy.
In both situations the writers have created this situation through laziness in their writing and lack of understanding in what they are doing. The Ancient / Ascended situation easily being the worst part of Stargate to introduce.
No they explained this clearly. The Ascended Ancients have to limit their interaction in our plane because doing too much would increase the odds of the acended Ori sensing them and coming to the Milky Way.
This was the actual key reason for the rule. I belive Orlan explained this when he descended as a child.
Ender wrote:ID4, they blow up the mothership massing 1/4th that of the moon and have it come raining down on the planet.
America, fuck yeah.
If destroying the DS2 basically ends all life on Endor then what would the destruction of the ID4 mothership have done? I would imagine that life on Earth over the next few days, weeks, months, years would become pretty well impossible.
We don't know how much of it entered Earth's atmosphere. DSII was close enough to tEndor that repulsors had to be used to keep it in geostationary orbit very close to the moon. Endor also is smaller than Earth significantly and the mothership blown up in Independence Day was destroyed in a further out orbit (after being broken up into smaller pieces; the saucers that were destroying cities), so wouldn't less stuff hit the Earth?Timotheus wrote: If destroying the DS2 basically ends all life on Endor then what would the destruction of the ID4 mothership have done? I would imagine that life on Earth over the next few days, weeks, months, years would become pretty well impossible.
If I'm wrong, please correct me.
- Themightytom
- Sith Devotee
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