Second Galactic Empire (Independent Project)

Admiral Felire · Post by **Admiral Felire** » 2008-08-05 02:19am

As a note, I am including this thread in the EU Fic topic because it will be using the decisions made in that general overhaul as a basis for the previous state of the galaxy and its history.

Okay, one of the things that have always called to me about Star Wars was the Galactic Empire. Its ships, its fleets, its uniforms, its tanks and weapons. They are iconic and they are pretty cool looking.

Another aspect of the Star Wars universe that always called to me was the Jedi. These robed wizards with their lightsabers and their training and capability are so Star Wars that without them part of the mythos is gone.

Of course, in the general scheme of things the Empire and the Jedi are not exactly something that can be united. The two groups work at odds. Now, in the more recent comic series known as the Legacy of the Force Era and Empire has come back. And this is a kind and gentler Empire with Jedi to boot. I was in heaven.

Of course, one of the problems that I thought was kind of cheap was that in the last fifty or a hundred years of Star Wars in universe history all that had existed in stable equilibrium for 25,000 years had been thrown away and discarded.

But I still want my Second Galactic Empire.

So, here is a thought, some thousand years after the fall of the Galactic Republic another galactic empire arises. A good empire. A powerful empire. An empire with Jedi serving it. An Empire that anybody would be proud to be a part of. This would be the time of the Second Galactic Empire.

Okay, all that above said one of the major points of this thread is for us to try and come up with a unified organization, history and backstory for the Second Galactic Empire. How it was formed, how it operates, how its leadership is structured, all that. And even, if we come up with ideas, even stories and articles set in this new Empire.

I will start, of course, with some ideas that I have. Other ideas can of course be presented, all ideas are welcome and a consensus will more than likely be hashed out through the power of friendly debate and discussion.

++

My Thoughts

Okay, so the point is the Rebels that fought against the First Empire won. They, through the blood of sacrifice managed to forge a new organization from the ashes of the First Galactic Republic. After decades of war, they managed to unite the chaotic galaxy and reestablish a galaxy spanning republic, the Second Galactic Republic it was called.

The Second Galactic Republic was signed into law at the same exact time a the lasting peace treaty was signed between the surviving Imperial forces (led by Supreme Commander, later Emperor, Pellaeon) and the forces of the Republican Alliance. It was a momentous decision for not only was it a peace treaty but it was also the formal declaration of the Second Galactic Constitution. And while it brought about galactic unity it also achieved for all time the existence of a sanctioned Imperial state, no matter how marginalized it was at some points.

A thousand years past on by. This was a millennium of mostly galaxy wide peace, though outbreaks of violence did occasionally crop up. It was also a time of stabilization as the reborn governments existing in the galaxy tried to find their new place in what had been a wartorn and chaotic galaxy. It was a time of bureaucrats and diplomats rather than Generals and Admirals. It was also a time of growth and expansion.

Now, at some point the situation in the galaxy changes enough that it becomes politically expedient and worthile for a return of Empire. This Second Galactic Empire will use its connections to the Imperial State, and that organizations connections to the First Galactic Empire as a point of why its the true government. Oh, others will also use the fact that the First Galactic Empire was a transformation of the First Galactic Republic to signify that the Second Galactic Empire continues the tradition connecting to the very first institution that spanned the galaxy.

+

I should make note that after Pellaeon retires as the head of the Imperial State his son becomes the Supreme Commander. After some time and the gaining of political backing, Pellaeon the Son declares that an Imperial State without an Emperor is a sad state. And such, with the support of his legislative, he declares himself Emperor Pellaeon the Second. As he uses 'the Second' he made his father Emperor Pellaeon the First, though Pellaeon himself disliked this he was not able to stop it.

+

Another fact of the Second Galactic Empire is that it is unlike the first in that it has its own Jedi. These Jedi are not Dark Siders, rather they are trained to put loyalty to the Empire first, above and beyond that of the Force.

++++++++++=

So, I wrote all this out, as it is my thoughts on the topic. Now I open it up to others, what are some of your thoughts and ideas on the Second Galactic Empire.

Remember, that despite me posting what I posted above, it is not necessary how it is. Its my take and while I would love to have it be considered part of this work, I do not feel that it is absolutely necessary.

Anyway, I want your thoughts, ideas and concepts on the Second Galactic Empire. From military organization to political organization to astrographic organization to nobility and culture. As well as industry and ships and all that. Anything, everything, and all are welcome.

Admiral Felire · Post by **Admiral Felire** » 2008-08-05 02:33am

You know what, I was just thinking of something. This thought might change my idea on Pellaeon.

Palpatine was declared the Emperor by the Senate, the legally binding body which had every right to do such a thing if it wanted.

The Peace Treaty that was signed between the 'Galactic Empire' and the New Republic by Pellaeon probably transferred authority over the galaxy to the new government. Now, it might not mean much but I figure that a society that existed for over 25,000 years pretty close to stable would really like having the new government that is in charge be legally connected to the previous government in charge.

This means that the Senate of the Second Galactic Republic has tall the galactic legal authority of the Senate of the First Galactic Republic. And thus, when the Senate of the Second Republic declares somebody Emperor, it is in fact a legally binding agreement based on its own political authority.

Which I think, from a legal and political basis is really interesting and something that I support.

So yeah, I think I might ignore my idea on making Pellaeon Emperor. hehe

Darth Raptor · Post by **Darth Raptor** » 2008-08-05 02:46am

I'm personally none too keen on the idea of a Pellaeon or even a Fel Emperor. A lot can happen in one or two thousand years and it seems more reasonable that someone else would come along to play the part of Caesar or, in this case, Palpatine. They may even take the surname as a title like the Roman Emperors styled themselves Caesar. More likely a Galactic Empire that's a parliamentary, constitutional monarchy would prefer to avoid the totalitarian and despotic connotations of the First Empire, even as they wholeheartedly embrace its militarism and aesthetic trappings.

On that note, not shitting on the accomplishments and sacrifices of the main saga heroes is important. A dictatorship, even a benign and paternalistic one, still isn't a Republic. Essentially, I'd prefer the Second Empire to be the Republic in all but name, while maintaining the superficial pomp of a monarchy with all the whiz, bang, explode of the military hyperpower we know and love. Less Lucas, more Asimov. The Emperor would have non-trivial, but still limited authority. And the Senate would be something decidedly more than a rubber-stamp echo chamber. Imperial Knights as a sub-sect of Jedi is a concept I wholeheartedly endorse.

At this point, it seems pointless to speculate on the circumstances of its foundation. Beyond the really vague, obvious stuff like mistaken nostalgia for a (by then) romanticized Empire, political/military upheaval in the greater GFFA, etc.

Admiral Felire · Post by **Admiral Felire** » 2008-08-05 03:06am

Yeah, you know what, after thinking about it, I don't think its necessary either.

Now, if I was making a reborn Galactic Empire during the recent timeline (as in during the lifespan of the current characters) then yeah, I would make such characters Emperors. But since this thread is a bout a Second Galactic Empire a thousand years hence, it doesn't matter.

I wouldn't mind a constitutional republic if the Emperor had legal authority to act and had the power to do it. Its not an Empire if its a puppet ruler to the state, I want a real Imperial State with Emperor who holds a lot of political cards.

Yeah, it needs Imperial Knights. Definitely. hehe

I also don;t have a problem with the idea of not going over the current heroes - unless such an awesome story comes to us that we have no choice but to write it. Then its okay in my book.

I created this as a sort of thought experiment that can piggy back on the other EU Fic projects. Since this is us making it up as we go, as long as it still feels Star Wars, I think it would allow for freedom of expression. Which is nice to have after the discussions on trying to fit all of the EU material that we can into the EU Fic project.

Darth Raptor · Post by **Darth Raptor** » 2008-08-05 03:16am

No, the Emperor shouldn't be an irrelevant figurehead. The Supreme Chancellor of the Old Republic and the Chief of State of the New Republic wielded considerable executive authority. The main (constitutional) difference between the First and Second Empires would be the role of the Imperial Senate. Under Palpatine, the Senate ruled for and on behalf of the Emperor. In the Second Empire, the Senate has better parity with the executive branch; ruling for itself on behalf of the people it represents.

Admiral Felire · Post by **Admiral Felire** » 2008-08-05 03:20am

Darth Raptor, yeah, I actually like that. A strong legislative branch does not mean that there is not a strong executive. I should also mention that it seems in the Star Wars Galaxy there isn't a separation between the executive and the legislative when it comes to the head of state. I mean the Chancellor of the Republic was pretty much a legislative member as well as the executive. Its probably the same with the Emperor. He is the head of the executive government but also is the president of the senate. Serving both roles.

Darth Raptor · Post by **Darth Raptor** » 2008-08-05 03:33am

In the First Empire, the Imperial Senate had a Chancellor, derived from the Old Republic office and stripped of its nominal supremacy. The Chancellor would be the president of the Imperial Senate, if not the actual chief of state; whereas the Emperor would be the chief executive, head of government and, post probably, CiC of the AFI.

Darth Hoth · Post by **Darth Hoth** » 2008-08-05 08:17am

I would not call the Imperial Senate irrelevant; I rather like Publius’s take that it, while weak, could still obstruct policy so that the executive was forced to take it seriously. Say, more akin to the Second Reich than the Third for a rough analogue.

Overall, I like the ideas put forth for a less fascist, more dynastic Empire. I could add a twist of the main opposition being the radicalised/fascist groups that do not support the status quo of the nobility and big business. I do disagree with the idea that it should be a wholly democratic constitutional monarchy; quite frankly, when every Senator represents quadrillions anyway, true democracy is more or less impossible. The Second Empire, if there is one, should be run by the upper classes, much like the Roman Empire, though with a paternalist streak rather than the dog-eats-dog competition of the Lucas Republic.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2008-08-05 11:04am

The Imperial chancellor is merely presiding officer of the legislature. The head of government is the minister-president (most of the functions of the executive branch are served by HIM Government). The Galactic Emperor is obviously the head of state, but for practical purposes he delegates the power and responsibilities of the head of state to the Serenissimus, and direct command-in-chief to the Supreme Commander.

I think the main difference would be a significantly weaker constitutional position by the Galactic Emperor, and the strong subordination of any official political apparatus, certainly not an Ersatzstaat like COMPNOR.

Master_Baerne · Post by **Master_Baerne** » 2008-08-05 11:33am

It seems to me that the Second Galactic Empire would try for an aesthetic similarity to the First, especially in it's warship design. It is important to remember that the Empire was viewed by most of the galaxy as a stabilizing, moderating influence on a chaotic galaxy, and the Fleet was it's prime method of preserving order. I support Darth Hoth in that a Second Empire would be directed by the aristocracy, be they titled, wealthy, or otherwise influential.

Darth Raptor · Post by **Darth Raptor** » 2008-08-05 11:55am

It's safe to say that the raison d'être of any resurgent Empire will be the strengths of the Imperial system relative to the Republic. Specific circumstances aside, it will be borne of an era where a strong, centralized and responsive government is needed and/or desired. So no, it won't completely dispense with Palpatinism. Otherwise, what would be the point? Why bring the Empire back at all?

I imagine the attitude will be similar to that of communists in modern Russia, pining over the "good old days" of the Soviet Union. They probably believe that they've learned the lessons of history, that they'll be able to get it right this time around. Therefore, they'll resurrect Palpatine's Empire, but not in its entirety. A lot of his reforms were benign, sensible and/or necessary. The rest were to perpetuate his own power at the expense of State stability. The new line of Emperors will (ostensibly) exist to serve the Empire, not the other way around. There shouldn't be deliberately convoluted and overlapping agencies, and there should be a clear engine of succession (probably hereditary, though there are other options as well).

Admiral Felire · Post by **Admiral Felire** » 2008-08-05 03:25pm

Darth Raptor

I think that the Emperor should be both head of state and head of government. Both the practical and the honor position as the chief of the state.

The legislature would have its own speakers, but I also think that he should have a high position within that body.

Darth Hoth

I also like the idea of a more dynastic Empire with high level nobles being the main movers and shakers.

The enemies being the radicalised/fascist group is nice. What that means is that there cannot be any COMPNOR in this organization. Which is not something I oppose, and in fact I dislike the official organization, though I think that their could be an ISB which is based as an Imperial-wide bureau of investigations.

I agree with you, the Empire should not be a democractic constitional monarchy. And your point about the nature of power of the senators, yeah, I completely agree.

I also love the idea you present about them being run by the upper classes. And I also like the idea of the paternalist streak rather than the cutthroat one. It presents a nice stabilizating factor that is a nice thing to have.

Illuminatus Primus

Is your first paragraph about the Palpatine Empire or about the Second Empire. Cause while I have no problem with it about the Palpatine Empire I disagree with it on the Second Empire.

I think the Emperor should be head of state as well as possessing his more honor abilities. But yeah I do agree with you on his somewhat weaker (but by no means weak) position and officiual political apparatus.

And no COMPNOR, though I don't have a problem with an ISB exsting.

Master_Baerne

Oh, I totally agree. They would harkon back to the good old days (ignoring some nasty effects of that time). They would bring back star destroyer shaped ships as well as TIE-shaped fighters. They would bring back Moffs, Grand Moffs, Grand Admirals and all the like.

I really like the idea of it being directed by the aristocracy, and I think that is a nice balancing factor.

Darth Raptor

Yeah, I agree. There needs to be a reason for an Empire to form that Republic cannot. A strong disieive leader who is capable of acting without months of debate and discussion.

And you know what, after a thousand years of history I doubt scholars and people would have an evil view of Palpatine anymore. Like our view of Ceaser, Alexander, Napolean, the bad gets downplayed after all this time and the 'good' gets magnified. Probably same with Palpatine.

I agree with your second paragraph in its intirety. Since no Emperor would be personally like Palpatine some of his decisions would not be made. So some of the problems that occured would not occcur. Plus, any Empire created would look to the long-term and not the short-term.

By the way, didn't Palpatine in RotS declare what he was doing as the 'First Galactic Empire'. Cause if he did, people would probably (rightfully or not) declare that he knew that a time would come for the second empire and thus this gives them the right. hehe

+++

The nobility plays a big part of this new Galactic Empire so maybe their should be a two-prong legislative branch. The Galactic Senate and the Imperial House of Lords. The Galactic Senate is exactly what it sounds line, each sector has the right to provide a delegate to this body which contains some exact rights and rules that it can and cannot do. The Imperial House of Lords is a sitting body where the High Nobility of the Galaxy (which is differentiated form the Low Nobility of Worlds) can have their voice be heard. It is from this body that Imperial Succession is determined.

In addition, there might also be a third body within the legislative branch of the Empire. The Conclave of Races is what this would be termed, with each Member Race having a vote within the body. This body would only oversee matters that relate to racial importance rather than geographic and what. Each Race would have one vote, except humanity which would have 10 votes.

The positions will go like this:

Emperor - He is the supreme executive and judicial official in the system. He has full control over military orders and oversees the legislative functions of government through his Chancellor and the bureactactic functions through the Prime Minister. He also serves within the High Seat of the Imperial Courts when matters of Galactic Importance are brought before it.

And he must be present to charge any Imperial High Noble of rank x and above with crimes.

The Emperor is nominated by the current Emperor and voted upon by the Imperial House of Lords before the right of Ascension can occur.

The bureacratic body of the Empire is the General Ministry which is divdied into untold ministries, departments, and bureaus at a both Imperial level, Oversector, and Sector Level.

Sectors are run by Moffs which are appointed by a certain apparatus within the Imperial Government. The Moffs have pretty much the same authority within their sectors in the second Galacitc Empire as they did in the first. Though all Moffs must follow certain Imperial Laws when relating to the Legislatives of their Sectors.

Each Sector is a part of an Oversector. No longer is the Oversector a special divison of the galaxy, rather it is now considered to be an organization above Sector. It allows for the sectors to be organized better. Unlike Sectors which concentrate both civil and military, Oversectors are chiefly military areas.

Some of the larger sectors are subdivided into subsectors, but this is a haphazard system that the Empire is still trying to get solved.

The laws of the Empire only relate to matters of Galactic Importance and are known as the High Laws. No local, planetary or sector government can have laws that go against the High Laws.

The Empire may declare what it wishes to be within its jurisidication, for the betterment and defense of the galaxy is its goal.

On a chart of power, next to the Legislature is the Imperial Order of Knights Jedi. This organization oversees, trains and monitors all lisconsed Force Users in the Galaxy. At the highest level is the Grand Council which the Emperor personally sits on. Below that Grand Council are various other Jedi Councils that oversee particular areas of operation. The Master-Apprentice connection remains, but no longer are indivduals forced to join the Order. If you do not choose to be trained, then you are not trained, but you may not call yourself a Jedi.

The Imperial Order of Knights Jedi are fully within the Galactic Empire. They are not a nearby power, an auxilary power or anything like that, they are fully a part of it. Imperial Knights serve in the military, in the legislative, in the courts, in the bureacracy. They serve as Moffs, admirals, lords, they serve where they are assigned and where their capabilities allow them to go.

++

What do you guys think?

Here is another question, what sorts of events do you think that can cause the galaxy at large to want to replace the Republic with the Empire.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2008-08-05 03:34pm

Monarchs don't serve in their own legislatures. A head of government is a prime minister or chancellor. Even strong and even absolute monarchies have some kind of minister who at least coordinates and drafts government policy for the monarch. I think a "racial estate" represented by its own chamber is a bad idea (first of all, how would a tricameral legislature even work?), and its just asking for specieist balkanization.

Admiral Felire · Post by **Admiral Felire** » 2008-08-05 03:43pm

My thought on the monarchs of Star Wars is that they both came from the executive of the Galactic Republic. Palpatine was the head of the Senate before becoming Emperor, he was part of the legislative branch.

I cannot see why he wouldn't have continued to have some say in that branch even after becoming Emperor. The position that was at the core of his power was the head of legislative.

Now, does that mean I think that he sat at every meeting of the Senate once he became Emperor, no, of course not. But at the same time I see him as the official in overall charge of it - somewhat like the Vice-President is the president of the Senate, it doesn't give him much actual day-to-day oversight of the Senate but it does allow him to technically and legally be a part of it.

+

On the three legislative chambers point, the Racial Council would only have authority to judge matters related to Races. For example, slavery or whether a race is fit to sit as an equal member of the Galactic Society. It wouldn't be a day to day standing body, but it would allow for the species of the government to protect their rights as sentient entities.

I'm not exactly hooked on it, but I thought it was an interesting idea that might protect the races of Star Wars against the chaos that occurred previously.

Darth Hoth · Post by **Darth Hoth** » 2008-08-05 04:09pm

Overall agreement with Illuminatus; why would the government adopt such speciesist legislation? Their protection would be a matter of common law; I could also easily imagine that there is an informal speciesist tinge in the predominantly human nobility that would make up the ruling classes.

The Emperor, as I imagined, would rule through the nobility, who may or may not have formalised authority as Governors in addition to their titles. I would think this a more feudal, less Roman-style government, overall with a comparatively weaker central executive (though not Canon NR/Prequel OR chaos). The Emperor's government would be run by some form of Chancellor or Chairman of the Collegium of Ministers or whatnots, not the Emperor himself. There might also be a popularly elected legislature of lesser importance; I liked your idea of bicameralism. For the overall model of the country, I would use some kind of synthesis of the Second Reich and the late Russian Empire.

Overall, though, are we not getting ahead of ourselves, here? It appears the Project is becoming unfocussed; we are discussing what should effectively be three separate projects simultaneously under the same portfolio (EUFic, PrequelFic, Legacy(?)Fic). We should attempt to backtrack to where we started, lest we blow of all the steam before we actually get started.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2008-08-05 04:16pm

Admiral Felire wrote:My thought on the monarchs of Star Wars is that they both came from the executive of the Galactic Republic. Palpatine was the head of the Senate before becoming Emperor, he was part of the legislative branch.

No he wasn't. The Supreme Chancellor is elected from amongst the Senators, but does not hold a seat (contrariwise, PMs in the UK are still MPs). He is the head of state and the presiding officer of the Senate (though this may be delegated via the Vice Chair of the Senate); he is not head of the government, but elected for terms (although he apparently must maintain confidence in the Senate in order to remain for his term). The head of government of the Republic is the General Minister who heads the Cabinet.

Admiral Felire wrote:I cannot see why he wouldn't have continued to have some say in that branch even after becoming Emperor. The position that was at the core of his power was the head of legislative.

The whole point of being a monarch is that you yourself are sovereign; you do not acquire sovereignty from the people or their representatives.

Admiral Felire wrote:Now, does that mean I think that he sat at every meeting of the Senate once he became Emperor, no, of course not. But at the same time I see him as the official in overall charge of it - somewhat like the Vice-President is the president of the Senate, it doesn't give him much actual day-to-day oversight of the Senate but it does allow him to technically and legally be a part of it.

Of course legally the Emperor can command the attention of the Senate (the Speech from the Throne), but that doesn't make him the head of government or presiding officer. That is at odds with political science.

Admiral Felire wrote:On the three legislative chambers point, the Racial Council would only have authority to judge matters related to Races. For example, slavery or whether a race is fit to sit as an equal member of the Galactic Society.It wouldn't be a day to day standing body, but it would allow for the species of the government to protect their rights as sentient entities.

I don't think this would work. It doesn't make sense, and sounds like a recipe for racist politics.

Admiral Felire wrote:I'm not exactly hooked on it, but I thought it was an interesting idea that might protect the races of Star Wars against the chaos that occurred previously.

Does the Federal Republic of Germany keep a chamber of races to avoid committing another holocaust? Do you think it'd be a great idea for Congress to host a chamber of representatives of the black race, Asians, Hispanics? Who decides what is race and what is species? Its not a good idea.

Darth Hoth · Post by **Darth Hoth** » 2008-08-05 04:22pm

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Does the Federal Republic of Germany keep a chamber of races to avoid committing another holocaust? Do you think it'd be a great idea for Congress to host a chamber of representatives of the black race, Asians, Hispanics? Who decides what is race and what is species? Its not a good idea.

It might be a good idea for some other, lesser polity, if we go by the policy of writing small most of the time. A bigotted South Africa analogue for a particular Sector? Sure, I could buy that, and it could make for interesting stories. But on the Galactic level, with millions of species and races who more often than not hate each others' guts? No, it probably would not work. To say nothing of its awkwardness, or the fact that the human nobility would be highly resentful of ceding part of its authority to a more likely than not anti-human body.

Admiral Felire · Post by **Admiral Felire** » 2008-08-05 04:27pm

I just want to say that I created this as just a mental recharge area. Creating ideas for this doesn't involve much research, hard work or whatnot. Its the presenting of ideas and working things out.

You know, fun stuff.

So, while we work hard on the various other topics we can also take break and come up with new ideas for the Second Galactic Empire without worry on how it will effect things in the other threads.

Its a safety valve of relaxation. Plus, its a topic I have always wanted to discuss so yeah, that is why I created it.

++++++++++

I don't see how its speciest, but fine, we could drop it. Its not like its that important to me, not really. The Galactic Senate and the Imperial House of Lords, though, are something that I think is important. As is the powerful and able to act Emperor.

I really thing that the Emperor should be like the President of the United States, both Head of State and Head of Government. I don't think that he should do it all, that he should have seconds and aids, but I think he should be in charge - not a figurehead.

I figure that some nobility would have actual legal executive power, while others would not. But also remember that the Imperial Nobles are nobles above and beyond normal planetary levels, so they are probably special and smaller in general number.

I think you can have both a feudal style government with strong local territorial rules, while having a strong central executive - which I mean military in this case. I don't have a problem with making most judicial, legislative and bureaucratic aspects being Sector based, its just that I think that the military aspect of the Second Empire should be a strong central government part.

I also think that whatever titles or levels in the nobility one might have, all Imperial Nobles owe allegiance directly to the Emperor, not to their superior lord. They might be required to obey their superiors but their personal loyalty is to the top, the utmost noble and not to the other nobles. This means that it will be harder for one lord to try and get all the other lords around him to try and topple the ruler.

By the way, I also think that the Imperial House should be a house of Force Sensitives. I kinda like the idea that it represents. They won't be Pellaeon, Fel or Skywalker but they should be able to use the Force.

Oh, another point, being a Sith should be illegal, not just frowned upon or whatever, but plain old illegal. I kinda like the difference that this Empire has is that its not full of Dark Siders or Sith.

Admiral Felire · Post by **Admiral Felire** » 2008-08-05 04:34pm

The Supreme Chancellor holds meetings and conveines sessions of the Senate. As we can see by Palpatine's predecessor as Chancellor, Valorum. There isn't a separate executive leader, the Chancellor is the preceiding officer of the Senate. We see it over and over again in the movies.

I honestly don't see where your coming from on that issue. The Chancellor was the preciding officer of the Senate. He came from it, was elected to it, held meetings of it, oversaw it, spoke at it, and all that. We see it in the canon movies.

A monarch such as Palpatine (who had no legal restraints on his power) could do pretty much wantever he wanted with no problems. He was in charge.

I want a real Emperor, a true Emperor, not a figurehead Emperor, not a behind the scenes Emperor, not a dude that sometimes speaks but delegates most of his authority away. I want an Emperor who says this is the issue, what are your opinions, okay, this is what we will be doing, make it work.

Like I said, I want the Emperor to be Head of State and Head of Government, I think that can work. I don't see why it cannot. It worked in governments past, from Greece to Rome to Egypt, it worked and it can work.

on the council of races, I'm fine with not having it.

++

I know its wikipedia, well Wookiepedia, but its a pretty good indication of what I am talking about.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Supreme_Chancellor

Supreme Chancellor, usually simply known as Chancellor and also known as Chancellor of the Republic, Grand Chancellor[1] or President of the Senate,[2] was the title of the Head of State and Government as well as Senate President and Senate Chair of the Galactic Republic.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2008-08-05 04:44pm

Wookieepedia is not an acceptable source. Its rife with assumptions, fanon, and poorly-educated generalizations. They list the Moff Council as the "legislature" of the "Fel Empire" (which they claim based on a comic throwaway line is the legitimate name).

The POTUS is head of government because he leads the cabinet. Strong emperors are not heads of government. Most of the states you list do not have emperors as heads of government, or use wholly unsuited political science models for the Empire. Choose a historical precedent and go with it. The Second Reich/Russian Empire concept is probably good; the Emperor is a head of state and names a minister as his head of government.

Admiral Felire · Post by **Admiral Felire** » 2008-08-05 04:51pm

I honestly do not see why the Emperor cannot be both the Head of State and Head of Government. I really don't. Nothing you have said even remotely provides support for what you have declared to be their antithesis.

The President of the United States of America is the Head of Government and Head of State. Now, granted, he is not a monarch, but he unites both positions in one role. A King who has absolute or near absolute power to do as he pleases also unites both aspects, even if their are Prime Ministers or whatever you want to call them under him.

The Point is that the Head of Government is the one in charge, the one that ultimately calls the shots on how the government is organized and led. So if its the Monarch and he appoints a Prime Minister then its the Monarch who has more authority than the Prime Minister. If the Prime Minister is the Head of Government than in actual realms of government policy he is technically superior.

That is not how it should be.

The Emperor should unite within his singular person both the role as the Head of State and Head of Government. Once he is approved by the Legislative he is in charge. He does not have to answer to minions (within the broad areas set by the constitution) he is in charge.

To me it seems like a very simple thing. The Emperor is in charge. He holds the power, the authority to act within most areas as he sees fit. He sets major policy and then the ministries act it out.

Yes, he might have a Chancellor to oversee his duties within the Legislative, yes he might have a Supreme Commander to oversee his duties in the Military, yes he might have a Prime Minister to oversee some of his operations in the bureaucracy. But in the end of the day, those officers are beholden to his rulings and his decisions - not to their own. He is in charge, he makes the rules, and he does what he wants - again, within the limits set by the Imperial Constitution.

And by the way, I would not that Palpatine is both Head of Government and Head of State. He appointed Pestage and Pestage can only act as His Majesty allowed. The power rested with Palpatine in his person not any position or placement that exists beyond his choices.

+++

So it seems that what I want is an Emperor who oversees the executive cabinet. I don't see how that is actually that hard to achieve.

+++

Encyclopedias are an acceptable source in my opinion if one wants to just show something. Since this aspect of the project is not some sort of documentary thing with endnotes and citations I have no problem with using anything I wish to back up my thoughts, opinions and points.

++

Look, my entire point is that I want the Emperor in Charge. I want him to be the Power in the Empire. I want him to be both Head of Government and Head of State.

I'm fine with stating that he is and moving on to other areas. But if you need to try and come up with real world accurate information, then here is a question - how you would make it so that he is both Head of Government and Head of State and yet still does what you wish for him to do.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2008-08-05 05:08pm

Do you want a list? The Emperor of Japan is not head of government, nor the King of kings of Ethiopia, nor the Emperor and Autocrat of All the Russias, nor the Emperor of the Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation, nor the German Emperor, nor the Emperor of China, nor the Emperor of Brazil, nor the Emperor of Austria, nor the Emperor of India, nor the Osmanli Sultan, nor the Emperor of the Romans.

The head of government is not who ultimately calls the shots and decides how things are done; he's just the manager of the government. Plenty of systems (basically the ones I just listed above) has a subservient head of government to a very strong monarchical head of state. You're insisting that he has real power in the government. That's fine; the German Emperor and the Emperor and Autocrat of All the Russias did. So did the Emperor of Austria. They still delegated the day to day management of the government to a minister who liased with the legislature. The Emperor has final say over law and directs policy in a broad sense. You keep insisting he be head of government like an emperor who is not (I can't think of any emperors formally invested as heads of government off the top of my head) has no power. I think you're a bit confused about your political science with this. The PM of the UK serves as the pleasure of the monarch technically. The Imperial Chancellor of Germany had his own role but Bismarck resigned when he did not have the confidence of Wilhelm. A Prime Minister is not head of the bureaucracy - that would be the head of the Civil Service (whatever its called, TNOiP calls it the Secretary General of the State Services of the Imperium).

I think the Second Reich should be the core concept (this is also a major helping of the TNOiP, and for our purposes, canonical, conception of the first Empire).

Admiral Felire · Post by **Admiral Felire** » 2008-08-05 05:18pm

I honestly don't care one whit about what the types of governments that we have formed here on Earth.

We are not establishing a single world government, we are forming a government based on a galaxy. Which has gone through things that would require the acts of whatever.

What I am saying is that we need to come up with our own system that makes sense, works and that fits the theme that we are trying to establish.

I see nothing wrong with the idea of the monarch (the Emperor) overseeing the cabinet. I also don't see anything wrong with their being a Prime Minister that oversees the ministry on a more exacting level than what the cabinet directly does. Both can operate at the same time.

I want the Emperor to be the chief officer of the executive branch of government - which makes him the defacto Head of Government.

The Prime Minister of the UK has power, the monarch does not. Well, she does technically but really she does not. I don't want that at all.

Reading about the Russian Empire (before some of its later reforms) doesn't sound that bad to me. The government is clearly under the Emperor who is in charge. Their is a ministry but the Emperor serves as its head, though he may delegate responsibility to others if he so chooses. He still oversees it. I think that is important for us to have.

I want a ruler who gets knee deep in the responsibility of governance. I don't want him to disappear to his special throne world deep in the hidden reaches where he can research mystical process of various magical things. I want him governing, ruling, establishing the basis and concepts for his ministries. And I very much think that that can happen, and happen correctly.

---

Okay, I had some thoughts.

Now, technically because of the power and ability of the position of Emperor he can do pretty much what he wants. He can liaison with the Senate, he can oversee the Ministry, he can control the Military. But because he is one man and the galaxy and its governance is so large it was deemed necessary to provide the areas of effect that he can do into smaller officers who only oversee that particular realm of authority.

So we have the Prime Minister who works to aid the Emperor in his duties as head of the Executive.

So we have the Chancellor who works to aid the Emperor in his duties as leader of the Senate.

So we have the Supreme Commander (or whatever the title is) who works to aid the Emperor follow with his duties as head of the Military Establishment.

So we have the Grand Master who works to aid the Emperor in overseeing the Imperial Order of Knights Jedi.

But because the Emperor is the Emperor and he may do that which he wishes, within the broad outline of the Constitution. He may decide that today, he is going to use his authority and oversee one of the narrower branches.

What he does is work with the Grand Master to meet with the Council. Its actually his authority normally, but at this point he is personally using it rather than delegate.

Tomorrow he decides that he wants to meet with his Cabinet. So he sets up a meeting of the Cabinet, which the Prime Minister normally chairs, and listens and comments on their day-to-day reports. He doesn't do this everyday, but he could if he wants.

Its the same with the authority given to the Chancellor or the authority given to the Supreme Commander. Its all based on the Emperor but it authority has been delegated to other positions to allow them to be operated.

Darth Raptor · Post by **Darth Raptor** » 2008-08-05 05:32pm

You don't actually need to change anything about the First Empire to get that, though. The Grand Vizier and ERC were essentially Palpatine surrogates appointed to keep things chugging along while he played dark wizard in the basement. There was nothing stopping him from taking a more active role beyond a lack of inclination on his part and for the sake of perpetuating convenient myths. Presumably, if you've got an Empire where the Galactic Emperor is "knee deep" in stuff then there wouldn't be a Grand Vizier or ERC. The Emperor would be doing all of that personally rather than delegating it.

I'm against deviating from TNOiP more than we have to in order to get a "good" and stable Galactic Empire. For those purposes, it's pretty clear what has to go. The rest should stay.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2008-08-05 05:35pm

Words have meanings determined by their historical use. And the principles of political science and the precedent of history doesn't go out the window because we're talking about fiction. We're establishing realism here. If the Emperor appoints a Prime Minister, I would call that person supervising the government to be the head of government, on paper at least. How much the Emperor does in the micromanagement of government would be relative to the personality of the current one. Some might take personal interest in certain issues (like Wilhelm in matters of armament and the military) or might have total rubber-stamp PMs. But they'll still be there and have a role on paper. If he can do anything of his own accord whenever, he's not just a "strong" participatory monarch, but an autocrat. The German example is probably the best case of a situation with a real legislature and federal government AND a strong monarch with real power.