Cold War with Nazi Germany

[Setzer]

OK, lets say that Nazi Germany won the war, and controls all EUrope, from the UK to the Urals, as well as all of North Africa, sans Middle East. Both the US and Germany have nukes. How will this confrontation end?

P.S. I did a thread like this a while back, but Google was on the Fritz, so I didn't see any responses. Could someone link to the thread on another NG?

[meNNis]

their economy wouldnt have died like the sovs, thats for sure.

[The Yosemite Bear]

Sounds like this belongs in "other Sci-fi" along with the rest of the AHs

[RedImperator]

OK, lets say that Nazi Germany won the war, and controls all EUrope, from the UK to the Urals, as well as all of North Africa, sans Middle East. Both the US and Germany have nukes. How will this confrontation end?

P.S. I did a thread like this a while back, but Google was on the Fritz, so I didn't see any responses. Could someone link to the thread on another NG?

This was basically the scenario envisioned by Robert Harris's Fatherland. Eventually, the Nazi economy goes *crash*, just like the Soviet economy.

[Pablo Sanchez]

A) The basic scenario is ludicrous, as Nazi Germany doesn't have the military capacity to take that much territory, let alone hold it.

B) They collapse in less than twenty years, partially from the obscene manpower requirements of garrisoning all that.

[Enforcer Talen]

or the series children's war - u.s.a stays isolationionist and the nazis dont attack the soviets. pretty much everyone is miserable, and the reich is falling apart too.

[Pablo Sanchez]

or the series children's war - u.s.a stays isolationionist and the nazis dont attack the soviets. pretty much everyone is miserable, and the reich is falling apart too.

These scenarios are always ill-considered. The authors, for some reason, assume that the Soviets would allow the Reich to exist past 1945. The Reich would be far weaker than the USSR, idealogically repulsive, proven to be highly aggressive, and controlled by semi-moronic zealots.

Ludicrous.

[phongn]

OK, lets say that Nazi Germany won the war, and controls all EUrope, from the UK to the Urals, as well as all of North Africa, sans Middle East. Both the US and Germany have nukes. How will this confrontation end?

I assume this scenario starts in the late 1950s then (since Germany apparently has nukes?)

The Reich has huge problems garrisoning all their territory; I'd hate to be in the East fighting all the partisens wreaking havoc.

Their industry probably isn't that efficient, at least compared to the United States's industry. Sure, it isn't being bombed daily or havin supply links severed, but IIRC the US had superior mass-assembly techniques and management.

Depending on how the US Army and US Air Force fund things, they may be able to get a lead on German rocketry. AFAIK, things like Atlas and Titan profited from the German experience, but are likely to have been completed without it. The A4 is grossly overrated both in inspiration for American and Soviet rocketry and in technical sophistication.

The US will have a ridiculous lead in nuclear technology. The fusion bomb is probably here already along with the delivery systems required. They have a commanding naval advantage. Their air-defense is likely superior (the US had a great lead in systems integration which is important here). Their Navy will be second to none in terms of quality and quantity.

The USAF will probably be able to knock out the German air-defense systems with impunity and proceed to destroy the heartland of the Reich. I'd hate to see what B-52s could do to their territory (late 1940s/early 1950s the B-36 probably could penetrate with minimal losses)

The US economy as a whole will smother the Reich's and lead to its collapse, if it hasn't already.

[phongn]

P.S. I did a thread like this a while back, but Google was on the Fritz, so I didn't see any responses. Could someone link to the thread on another NG?

Much of this revolved around whether the Germans could intercept the B-36 around 1946 or so. Sheppard was adamant that the Germans could; I was more or less adamant that the B-36 would be able to penetrate with minimal (though not zero) losses.

My belief stemmed from it's speed (fast for it's time), defensive armament (radar and computer guided 20mm) and operational altitude (above most, though not all, Nazi fighters). The altitude is more critical; while a fighter might be able to get up that high it will have expended so much fuel in doing so that interception is very difficult.

As an additional note, MiG-15s found it very difficult to intercept RB-36 (recon varient) when they wandered through the Soviet Union, and in exercises F-86D Sabres could not intercept unloaded (IIRC) ones either. As jets tended to have superior high-altitude performance (and either of the two were superior to any fighter the Germans had in service at the time) it is probable that they would get through.

[phongn]

or the series children's war - u.s.a stays isolationionist and the nazis dont attack the soviets. pretty much everyone is miserable, and the reich is falling apart too.

These scenarios are always ill-considered. The authors, for some reason, assume that the Soviets would allow the Reich to exist past 1945. The Reich would be far weaker than the USSR, idealogically repulsive, proven to be highly aggressive, and controlled by semi-moronic zealots.

Or for that matter, why the Reich is not being hit by the USAAF with 'special' bombs.

[Icehawk]

These scenarios are always ill-considered. The authors, for some reason, assume that the Soviets would allow the Reich to exist past 1945. The Reich would be far weaker than the USSR, idealogically repulsive, proven to be highly aggressive, and controlled by semi-moronic zealots.

Ludicrous.

They could allow them to exist if they had a stable alliance, shared technologies and such. Allthough that is a highly unlikely scenario with Hitler in power. Even if it did work though it would probably all end up in a cold war between USSR and Nazi controlled Europe/North Africa. Now that would be an interesting scenario

[meNNis]

why does everyone seem to believe the fascist state's economy would collapse? were talking a very different scenario then the communistic ussr. iirc, everyone in germany loved hitler (with the exception, of course, being Jews and the limited amount of gypsys etc that were persecuted, but probably wouldnt matter anyways by this time, most likely being completly eradicated and/or expelled from the fatherland) unlike communistic ussr, where fear was much more ever-present among the majority if not all of the population. not to mention, germanys industry was great for her land space, and if she had succeeded in expanding and holding the majority of europe, she would have the combined industry as well as manpower, however limited it may be, depending on how the captured peoples were treated.

now im not saying the german state would not implode, seeing how its possible with any nation, but i think it should be considered that it has more of a chance of surviving than most of you seem to think.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

I doubt Hitler would even survive past 1947.

[meNNis]

I doubt Hitler would even survive past 1947.

1) why not?
2) does it matter?

sure, hitler may have been one of if not the best damned public speaker ever, but he was no great national coordinator, or IMHO, leader. even if he does die, someone else will take the reigns.

[phongn]

why does everyone seem to believe the fascist state's economy would collapse? were talking a very different scenario then the communistic ussr. iirc, everyone in germany loved hitler (with the exception, of course, being Jews and the limited amount of gypsys etc that were persecuted, but probably wouldnt matter anyways by this time, most likely being completly eradicated and/or expelled from the fatherland) unlike communistic ussr, where fear was much more ever-present among the majority if not all of the population. not to mention, germanys industry was great for her land space, and if she had succeeded in expanding and holding the majority of europe, she would have the combined industry as well as manpower, however limited it may be, depending on how the captured peoples were treated.

[/i]

Germany redlined her economy to build up her military. And she'll have to keep up a large force to man the occupied territories in the East. The Third Reich cannot afford all of this - nor an arms race with the United States, still holder of the world's largest economy.

Her industry was not that good. Management techniques were inferior as well as the actual technology of the factories themselves.

now im not saying the german state would not implode, seeing how its possible with any nation, but i think it should be considered that it has more of a chance of surviving than most of you seem to think.

Germany cannot win an arms race with the United States, it's a losing proposition. They cannot survive a hot war with the United States, it is a proposition that will turn them into a self-lit parking lot. They are fucked.

[Typhonis 1]

From a naval standpoint the Kreigsmarine would be owned by the US Navy in 1945 after beating Japn we had a 600 ship fleet available we also had about 20 Essex class Carriers each can carry about 90 aircraft 100 Independence class aircraft casrriers tht can carry 30 planes and the second largets submarine force IN WW2 .

[Utsanomiko]

I doubt Hitler would even survive past 1947.

1) why not?
2) does it matter?

1) Hitler's health was so poor the only reason he wasn't 100% in '45 was due to all the drugs he was taking.

2)It matters a bit. Mostly for morale, but I think there would have been alot of power struggles without his leadership.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

Well, maybe not '47, but Hitler definately would have died by 1950.

But it's probably correct assuming that the USSR would NOT have allowed Nazism to exist beyond the 40s.

[The Yosemite Bear]

stalin was gearing up to invade anyways/

[The Duchess of Zeon]

OK, lets say that Nazi Germany won the war, and controls all EUrope, from the UK to the Urals, as well as all of North Africa, sans Middle East. Both the US and Germany have nukes. How will this confrontation end?

P.S. I did a thread like this a while back, but Google was on the Fritz, so I didn't see any responses. Could someone link to the thread on another NG?

The Nazi economy was failing before WWII. Part of the reason Hitler told his Generals to give him a war was because the economic "miracle" Hitler had begun was running its course. Germany needed conquests to keep the economy afloat. After several decades digested Europe, it would need more. The Nazi economy was a conquest economy: It could achieve incredible things, but it would need to always expand.

Once they're stalemated, they're doomed sooner or later.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

A) The basic scenario is ludicrous, as Nazi Germany doesn't have the military capacity to take that much territory, let alone hold it.

B) They collapse in less than twenty years, partially from the obscene manpower requirements of garrisoning all that.

It's some moronic wank-fantasy, rather like the idea that the CSA is a viable nation, which surely vies as the second most moronic wank-fantasy of alternate-history authors. I've gotten so sick of both that anything which includes neither one I'll read when it comes to AH. Only alien intervention is an exception.

I think there's just this certain segment of history-minded people who are the intellectual version of bikers who think "bad is COOL" and want to protray evil mass slaughter and jack-booted thugs everything gives a collective shudder at somehow ubermenschen-fighting their way to survival and decades more of terrorizing the human race with the mere presence of their name, be they Nazis or the older Confederate slavocrats.

Once you realize that's the entire point of 'em and combine it with the sheer historical implausibility of those premises, the stories almost universally fall flat.

[Marcus]

One thing that doesnt get as much discussion as it could... the German Economy was NEVER fully militarized, not to the degree of most of the other participants. This lack of full-conversion gave them much of the slack that allowed them to continue to increase their military output such that more tanks, bombs, etc. rolled off the lines in 45 than they did in 44, despite a heavy and increasing US/British Bomber Campaign. The downside was that they were still building Pianos in late 45...

[The Duchess of Zeon]

One thing that doesnt get as much discussion as it could... the German Economy was NEVER fully militarized, not to the degree of most of the other participants. This lack of full-conversion gave them much of the slack that allowed them to continue to increase their military output such that more tanks, bombs, etc. rolled off the lines in 45 than they did in 44, despite a heavy and increasing US/British Bomber Campaign. The downside was that they were still building Pianos in late 45...

The U.S. economy was never fully militarized either. You don't think that new Pianos were available inside the USA in '45?

[Spanky The Dolphin]

What's this about pianos?

What the hell do pianos have to do with a war?

[phongn]

What's this about pianos?

What the hell do pianos have to do with a war?

The fact that pianos were available in any sort of quantity on CONUS during World War II shows that our economy was not totally mobilized for war.