Twenty die on Russian submarine

[Bounty]

At least 20 people have died in an incident involving the failure of a fire extinguishing system on a Russian nuclear submarine, local media report.

Russian Pacific Fleet spokesman Igor Dygalo said both sailors and shipyard workers died in the incident, which occurred during sea trials.

He said the submarine itself had not been damaged and there had been no radiation leaks.

Military prosecutors are investigating the incident.

Injured evacuated

The submarine, whose name and class have not been revealed, has been ordered to suspend sea trials and return to port in the far eastern Primorye territory, Capt Dygalo said.

"I declare with full responsibility that the reactor compartment on the nuclear-powered submarine is working normally and the radiation background is normal," he said, quoted by Itar-Tass news agency.

There were 208 people on board at the time, 81 of whom were servicemen.

Twenty-one injured people have been evacuated from the submarine, sources at the fleet said.

Reports say the incident occurred in the nose of the vessel. The nuclear reactor, which is in the stern, was not affected.

Russian President Dmitry Medvedev is being kept fully informed about the incident, his press service said.

Deputy Defence Minister Alexander Kolmakov and Navy Commander-in-Chief Vladimir Vysotsky are flying to the scene of the incident.

Russia's worst submarine disaster happened in August 2000, when the nuclear-powered Kursk sank in the Barents Sea. All 118 people on board died.

Twenty people die in a fire that doesn't damage the submarine itself? How does that work?

[Samuel]

They die from the lack of oxygen, smoke inhalation or heat.

[Sea Skimmer]

Sounds like they aren't even saying a fire occurred. Probably a halo system was tripped and suffocated them all. Another wonderful moment in the safety history of Russian submarines.

[Ender]

It doesn't even say there was a fire, just that the system failed. The halon system could have been accidentally lit off, suffocating them.

EDIT: curse you skimmer, your edit makes me look like a parrot now.

[Falkenhayn]

So they were smothered by some kind of chemical foam? I'm guessing that tripping the fire-suppression system makes the compartment hatch inoperable from the inside?

[Sea Skimmer]

It doesn't even say there was a fire, just that the system failed. The halon system could have been accidentally lit off, suffocating them.

EDIT: curse you skimmer, your edit makes me look like a parrot now.

Don’t blame me, I was going to just delete my post when I realized that no fire was present, then make a whole new one to avoid this sort of thing, but it seems we don’t have a delete button available to senators in this forum anymore.

So they were smothered by some kind of chemical foam? I'm guessing that tripping the fire-suppression system makes the compartment hatch inoperable from the inside?

Halon is an inert gas that works by displacing oxygen, really quickly. Its colorless and as I recall oderless as well. It most certainly would not be linked to any kind of hatch locking system; that just doesn’t make sense.

In western fleets submarines usually have a fixed system of line fed halon extinguishers covering key compartments, as well as portable halo exhausters, and a conventional fire fighting hose system for foam and water. However Halon should not be on any kind of automatic system that could be accidntly set off,, it should require a quite deliberate effort with safeties to trip, precisely because of the risk of this kind of accident.

The crew should have portable oxygen masks (not mere gas filtering masks) available to protect themselves against Halon, but it sounds like this boat was overcrowded with yard workers and with no fire no one would have had these at the ready. If Halon is tripped you only have seconds to don a mask or escape the compartment before you’d be incapacitated.

However with no data, it may have been something else; I think a couple other gases besides Halon can be used for fire extinguishers like this, and well, we just can’t know yet what happened.

[Vympel]

It was the new K-125 Nerpa, allegedly built for lease to the Indian Navy (i.e. a Pr. 971 Akula II). The fire suppression system was somehow tripped and killed 20 people near the front of the boat.

The Russian Navy reports of an accident on a nuclear submarine deployed in the Pacific, which took place today, on November 8, 2008. According to the Navy, the submarine was at sea undergoing sea trials when the fire control system accidentally switched on killing "more than 20 people" of the 208 people on board. Among the killed are members of the crew as well as representatives of a shipyard (presence of the shipyard workers explains the large number of people on board - normal crew size is 73 people). The reactors as well as other vital systems of the submarine were not affected and the submarine is returning "to its temporary base".

The type of the submarine is not known at this point. It is fairly certain that this is not a ballistic missile submarine. It may be one of the attack submarines of the Project 971 class - as one report points out, it was reported in October that a submarine of this class was undergoing sea trials in the Pacific.

UPDATE: One important note - the submarine almost certainly does not have any nuclear weapons on board. First, it wouldn't carry them during sea trials. Then, Russian submarines (other than ballistic missile submarines) do not carry nuclear weapons.

UPDATE: It was indeed a Project 971 submarine. This boat, K-152, was built at the Komsomolsk-na-Amure shipyard for the Indian Navy.

[JointStrikeFighter]

The crew should have portable oxygen masks (not mere gas filtering masks) available to protect themselves against Halon, but it sounds like this boat was overcrowded with yard workers and with no fire no one would have had these at the ready. If Halon is tripped you only have seconds to don a mask or escape the compartment before you’d be incapacitated.

Out of curiosity Skimmer how do tank halon systems avoid suffocating the crew when they are activated? Is their some automated hatch blow system?

[The Duchess of Zeon]

The crew should have portable oxygen masks (not mere gas filtering masks) available to protect themselves against Halon, but it sounds like this boat was overcrowded with yard workers and with no fire no one would have had these at the ready. If Halon is tripped you only have seconds to don a mask or escape the compartment before you’d be incapacitated.

Out of curiosity Skimmer how do tank halon systems avoid suffocating the crew when they are activated? Is their some automated hatch blow system?

They've either evacuated the areas to be flooded, or they're in oxygen masks.

[Pelranius]

Most of the casualties (17 out of 20) are civilian workers from the shipyards. I thought that the Russians also trained them to properly act in the case of an emergency (if the fire system was tripped, wouldn't klaxons sound or something?)

My guess is that the shipyard managers were cutting corners on worker training, just like how the Chinese mine owners cut corners on safety as well. Head ought to roll for this.

[Sidewinder]

It was the new K-125 Nerpa, allegedly built for lease to the Indian Navy (i.e. a Pr. 971 Akula II). The fire suppression system was somehow tripped and killed 20 people near the front of the boat.

And I recently read an article saying the Indian finance ministry refuses to release the $1.2 billion needed to retrofit what was once the Soviet aircraft carrier Admiral Gorshkov for the Indian Navy. Do the Russians have a conspiracy theory regarding US arms manufacturers bribing workers at their arms manufacturers to sabotage Russian-made weapons and make "Buy American" more appealing? Because a fuckup like this might make a government official think, "Russian [insert products here] are [insert adjective here] deathtraps. Let's buy American and spare the families of OUR military service members the funeral costs."

[K. A. Pital]

Latest details indicate freon asphyxiation, probably the victims did not notice freon going out since they had portable masks but did not use them.

[Kitsune]

Could it be old fashion CO2?

Inergen is suppose to replace Halon, at least in US Service

[K. A. Pital]

It was freon according to the Russian press-release.

[Kitsune]

It was freon according to the Russian press-release.

Got a link to that article?

[K. A. Pital]

It's everywhere
http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/World/2008/ ... 06-ap.html

[Sea Skimmer]

Could it be old fashion CO2?

Inergen is suppose to replace Halon, at least in US Service

They wouldn’t use CO2 for this. Halon and Freon compounds are used for military and other high value fire extinguishing systems because they not only displace oxygen, they also chemical disrupt the fires combustion process. A number of chemicals are now on the market and in development to replace both Freon and Halon extinguishers, since both chemical families kill the ozone layer. Ironically many of the replacement compounds are significantly toxic to humans, while Freon and Halon are not.

[Darth Wong]

Just how easy is it to accidentally trip the fire suppression system?

[K. A. Pital]

Just how easy is it to accidentally trip the fire suppression system?

Our officials indicate it's pretty hard, and the workers operating the submarine on system trials could have broken ROO (Rules of Operation). The boat was operated by construction workers as it was undergoing trials; it's military Navy crew was on-shore for the exception of the few officers (who died in the incident as well).

[Lonestar]

Just how easy is it to accidentally trip the fire suppression system?

It is very, very hard to "accidently" trip a halon system on a USN ship. I had a coworker who was on an FFG that was being turned over to the Poles, and he said they managed to "accidently"(in other words "fuck around with") a lot of supposebly "sailor-proof" stuff during training. I wonder if the difference in quality is the same wiht the Russian Navy/yard workers as it is with the Poles...

[dragon]

Not sure about the status of the change but Halon is supposed to be replaced as it is very hazordous. For example our server rooms uses FM-200TM which is non-toxic (so they say ) and won't cause asphyxiation or damage to the equipment.

I imagine it will still be a few years before all the USN ships are switched away from Halon.

[Turin]

Not sure about the status of the change but Halon is supposed to be replaced as it is very hazordous. For example our server rooms uses FM-200TM which is non-toxic (so they say ) and won't cause asphyxiation or damage to the equipment.

I imagine it will still be a few years before all the USN ships are switched away from Halon.

FM200 is also non-ozone depleting, which is an additional benefit.

I've been involved in the architectural design-side of installing a fire-suppression system like this (both older Halon and a bunch of the newer FM200). Setting off these sorts of systems accidentally should be very difficult to do, but the risk of doing so increases quite a bit if you're actively working on it. Since this vessel was undergoing sea trials, it could be the contractors were performing tests on the system and screwed up big-time. Alternately, because the gas has to be stored under pressure in a separate place (presumably a separate compartment on a submarine), it could be that someone physically damaged the containment system and caused a rupture. But short of a serious manufacturing defect in the containment system, either scenario requires a major human error.

[Vympel]

Just how easy is it to accidentally trip the fire suppression system?

A link about the disaster - the prospect of sabotage has been seriously mooted at this point - it appears that three separate tanks were vented into one compartment, which shouldn't be possible

[Turin]

A link about the disaster - the prospect of sabotage has been seriously mooted at this point - it appears that three separate tanks were vented into one compartment, which shouldn't be possible

Not to nitpick, but it is possible, but only if someone seriously screwed up at the central control panel. The setup described precludes one sort of accident discussed earlier -- the idea that someone may have accidentally physically broken a tank or piece of piping. But the article also indicates that the central control can request that the other two tanks go. (You'd use this in the case of a fire that is raging faster than the initial discharge can keep up with.) Which means this still could happen accidentally, but it would involve a programming or manufacturing defect on the central control system. Obviously the NPO Avrora reps are denying this is possible, but it's their necks so I'd expect that.

Unfortunately you can armchair investigate these sorts of industrial accidents all you want (and I certain enjoy trying to), but the real data will be in that Rotor (black box) system.

[Kitsune]

From anotehr discussion, I found out that Halon and Freon are a group of chemicals which have a large amount of overlap. They are closely related. Previously, I did not know that Freon was also a fire fighting chemical.