Americans Drive Less, Creating a Problem

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Americans Drive Less, Creating a Problem

Post by ray245 »

When gasoline prices shot over $4 a gallon this summer, Americans didn't wait for Washington to respond with an energy policy. They took action on their own by driving less and switching to more fuel-efficient cars.

The results are dramatic, but also problematic.

Join the Discussion
Readers, over to you: Will lower fuel prices change your driving habits and vehicle purchase plans? Cast your vote and join a discussion.

See more coverage of the Auto Industry Bailout.The good news is that gasoline consumption has fallen compared with a year earlier in every month from March through September of this year, according to data from the Energy Information Administration. Vehicle miles traveled -- the wonky term for how much we drive -- have dropped for 11 straight months, and fell 4.4% in September, according to the Department of Transportation.

The only people driving more in September than a year earlier were the proud few who live in North Dakota and the denizens of the District of Columbia. The lousy economy depressed driving in many parts of the country. Our nation's capital, however, is a rock that's always above the water line whether the economic tide is high or low.

In short, many Americans, by choice or by default, did what the people who worry about the climate and U.S. dependence on petroleum wanted them to do. They burned about 5% less gasoline in August than a year ago, according to Energy Information Administration data.

By jamming the brakes on driving, rediscovering mass transit and walking past Hummers to buy compact cars like the Honda Fit, American consumers caused big trouble for powerful interests. The question now is how will those interests respond?

The oil industry and oil-producing nations have an acute problem, because the combination of conservation and the worst world-wide economic slump in decades has once again made a mockery of recent projections that oil would remain expensive and scarce forever. As of late last week, oil prices had fallen below $50 a barrel -- compared with more than $140 a barrel this summer.

Experts who watch world oil supplies still say that over the long haul, demand for petroleum created by the growth and modernization of China, India and other emerging economies will make oil expensive again.

The short term, however, looks like a re-run of the late 1970s and early 1980s, when oil doomsayers were trumped by supply and demand. When oil prices soared in that era, interest in electric cars, windmills, solar heating panels and other petroleum alternatives accelerated. When conservation and new oil discoveries caused oil prices to collapse, the economic justification for expensive, immature oil replacement technology collapsed as well, and it was a skip and a jump to the age of the SUV.

President-elect Barack Obama reflected on this in a "60 Minutes" interview last week. "We go from shock to trance. You know, oil prices go up, gas prices at the pump go up, everybody goes into a flurry of activity," he said. "And then the prices go back down and suddenly we act like it's not important…And, as a consequence, we never make any progress. It's part of the addiction, all right. That has to be broken. Now is the time to break it."

But the federal government is conflicted, too. Yes, policy makers want us to conserve oil. But now that we have, the funds that pay for roads, bridges, rail transit and other transportation infrastructure are falling right along with gasoline tax receipts.


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The U.S. Department of Transportation last week said that gasoline taxes paid into the highway trust fund fell by $3 billion in the 2008 fiscal year.

"Our current approach has us encouraging Americans to change their driving habits and burn less fuel while secretly hoping they drive more so we can finance new bridges, repair interstates and expand transit systems," Transportation Secretary Mary Peters said in a statement. "We need a new approach that compliments, instead of contradicts, our energy policies and infrastructure needs."

One new approach would be to raise the federal gasoline tax from its current 18.4 cents a gallon. By comparison, the tax rate in the U.K. is about $2.85 a gallon. So far, it seems as likely in the current economic climate that Congress will outlaw Big Macs as entertain a plan to raise gasoline taxes. Higher gas taxes could finance improvements to roads and mass transit, encourage further conservation or offset the costs of the various federal bailouts. But the collapse of gasoline prices since the summer -- a drop of more than $2 a gallon in my neighborhood -- is an economic stimulus worth more than $200 billion a year.

This puts the people who seized on the recent gas price shocks as the moment to push green vehicle strategies in a bind. So far, the car companies that vowed that they would, finally, get serious about electric vehicles or advanced hybrids all are sticking to their guns. So are some of the upstart electric vehicle ventures that had the wind at their backs when oil prices were in the triple digits. The mayor of San Francisco last week celebrated a deal with electric car venture Better Place to make the city by the bay the electric-vehicle capital of the U.S.


Nissan and Renault CEO Carlos Ghosn talks with WSJ's Eyes on the Road columnist Joe White about proposals for a government bailout of the auto industry and how such assistance should be applied. (Nov. 18)
Carlos Ghosn, the chief executive officer of Renault SA and Nissan Motor Corp., said in an interview this week that he is still determined to build electric vehicles for sale in 2010, despite the economic malaise. General Motors Corp. has insisted that its plug-in hybrid Chevy Volt, due in 2010, will survive the cost-cutting as the auto giant struggles to survive.

At current gasoline prices, however, consumers who buy expensive electric or plug-in hybrid cars would find it smarter financially to buy a reasonably efficient, conventional subcompact and work from home one day a week.

If gasoline prices stay low, demand for vehicles that use sophisticated technology to consume less gasoline per mile will depend on consumers making long-term decisions that aren't in their short-term economic interests. Otherwise, these new high-mileage cars might not sell for high enough prices to cover their higher costs.

A lot depends on whether Americans keep doing what they're doing, regardless of what the numbers are on the gas station signs.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1227286 ... =yhoofront

As a person who dislike the idea of private ownership of cars, I am glad to see this fact.

And I don't think there is a thing called a short term economic 'interest' in this scenario.
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Re: Americans Drive Less, Creating a Problem

Post by Kanastrous »

I guess we should find an alternative source of revenue for infrastructure upkeep and expansion, to supplement fuel taxes.
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Re: Americans Drive Less, Creating a Problem

Post by CmdrWilkens »

Honestly just raise the per gallon tax on gasoline. We've shown as a nation that we can survive $3/gal and keep chugging until Wall Street knuckles under so I rather think that we could finance that needed construciton by upping the cost per gallon. Moreover while it may be fought over intiially it would receded to the back of everyone's mind well before the next election if enacted early. It would simply become part of the price we pay at the pump.
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Re: Americans Drive Less, Creating a Problem

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Kanastrous wrote:I guess we should find an alternative source of revenue for infrastructure upkeep and expansion, to supplement fuel taxes.
While the article says the US is paying 18.4 cents a gallon in taxes, each person is probably paying closer to the UK's level of $2.85, once you factor in the money from income taxes.

It would have been nice, and smart, if the financing for road maintanence and building was tied directly to user fees, such as a gas taxes and tolls. Roads are very expensive to build and maintain. Those of us who have no vehicle, or if we do, don't use it for commuting, should not have to pay the same level as someone who drives 50+ miles a day.
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Re: Americans Drive Less, Creating a Problem

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Ekiqa wrote:
Kanastrous wrote:I guess we should find an alternative source of revenue for infrastructure upkeep and expansion, to supplement fuel taxes.
While the article says the US is paying 18.4 cents a gallon in taxes, each person is probably paying closer to the UK's level of $2.85, once you factor in the money from income taxes.

It would have been nice, and smart, if the financing for road maintanence and building was tied directly to user fees, such as a gas taxes and tolls. Roads are very expensive to build and maintain. Those of us who have no vehicle, or if we do, don't use it for commuting, should not have to pay the same level as someone who drives 50+ miles a day.
However, even public transport like buses will use roads as well. Unless you are thinking of building a light rapid transport that allows you to travel within a Town or a small section of a city.

Roads in essence is still required as long as cars exist.

Even private ownership of cars is banned, public ownership of cars will still exist in any society.

Short of a massive technological innovation that allows us to build travellators and allow people to travel from section of a city to another section of a city, the need of roads will be there.
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Re: Americans Drive Less, Creating a Problem

Post by The Yosemite Bear »

oh and as someone who has to drive 90 miles each way to get my Diabeties meds out in the boonies, fuck you to whom ever wants too take away of my 27 MPG Volvo.
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Re: Americans Drive Less, Creating a Problem

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ray245 wrote:However, even public transport like buses will use roads as well. Unless you are thinking of building a light rapid transport that allows you to travel within a Town or a small section of a city.

Roads in essence is still required as long as cars exist.

Even private ownership of cars is banned, public ownership of cars will still exist in any society.

Short of a massive technological innovation that allows us to build travellators and allow people to travel from section of a city to another section of a city, the need of roads will be there.
I'm not advocating getting rid of cars, just making those who use them pay. And make those whose vehicles damage the road faster, such as trucks, pay more.
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Re: Americans Drive Less, Creating a Problem

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So bascially you are proposing a road tax so to speak?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_Road_Pricing
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Re: Americans Drive Less, Creating a Problem

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I'm okay with gas at $2.50 a gallon, kthanks. Remember some of us live in areas where the local average is significantly above the national one.
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Re: Americans Drive Less, Creating a Problem

Post by The Yosemite Bear »

Slacker wrote:I'm okay with gas at $2.50 a gallon, kthanks. Remember some of us live in areas where the local average is significantly above the national one.
yeah and some of us live in dark hollars, though the finding out that with filter paper technology you can turn burger joint fryer oil into Deseil fuel.
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Re: Americans Drive Less, Creating a Problem

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The Yosemite Bear wrote:oh and as someone who has to drive 90 miles each way to get my Diabeties meds out in the boonies, fuck you to whom ever wants too take away of my 27 MPG Volvo.
You can't get that mailed to you? That seems pretty excessive.
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Re: Americans Drive Less, Creating a Problem

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Well, what's wrong with redeveloping a better public transport system, so that you can actually give up your car and make use of a public transport like a train or a bus that allows you to travel 90 miles and get your medicine?

If the public transportation is refined, you don't need a car to get your medicines.

Cars in essence is a luxury item.
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Re: Americans Drive Less, Creating a Problem

Post by The Yosemite Bear »

Seggybop wrote:
The Yosemite Bear wrote:oh and as someone who has to drive 90 miles each way to get my Diabeties meds out in the boonies, fuck you to whom ever wants too take away of my 27 MPG Volvo.
You can't get that mailed to you? That seems pretty excessive.

I live in the Mountains, Technically I CAN get them mailed to me, but my insurance company turns it into a continous game of "Silly Bear that Trick never works", the nearest pharmacy/chemist is 90 miles away. not as the crow flies, but as the steep winding grade twists...
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Re: Americans Drive Less, Creating a Problem

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ray245 wrote:Well, what's wrong with redeveloping a better public transport system, so that you can actually give up your car and make use of a public transport like a train or a bus that allows you to travel 90 miles and get your medicine?

If the public transportation is refined, you don't need a car to get your medicines.

Cars in essence is a luxury item.
Because running public transportation to small isolated communities isn't economical.
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Re: Americans Drive Less, Creating a Problem

Post by Fingolfin_Noldor »

ray245 wrote:Well, what's wrong with redeveloping a better public transport system, so that you can actually give up your car and make use of a public transport like a train or a bus that allows you to travel 90 miles and get your medicine?

If the public transportation is refined, you don't need a car to get your medicines.

Cars in essence is a luxury item.
Ray, the United States is a very large country, with lots of open spaces. To run a transport system of that size is extremely expensive, and it will not generate the ridership that will ensure profitability, much less non-profitability. As a result, people still drive from town to town. The Amtrak isn't an option all the time, although I wished it were. To ensure that bus services are profitable, or don't incur too large a loss, they often schedule buses by the hour or half-hourly. Given that one can possibly get a used car for a couple to four thousand dollars, anyone who can afford to drive would drive.

This is not Singapore mind you, where used cars are bloody expensive.
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Re: Americans Drive Less, Creating a Problem

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Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:
ray245 wrote:Well, what's wrong with redeveloping a better public transport system, so that you can actually give up your car and make use of a public transport like a train or a bus that allows you to travel 90 miles and get your medicine?

If the public transportation is refined, you don't need a car to get your medicines.

Cars in essence is a luxury item.
Ray, the United States is a very large country, with lots of open spaces. To run a transport system of that size is extremely expensive, and it will not generate the ridership that will ensure profitability, much less non-profitability. As a result, people still drive from town to town. The Amtrak isn't an option all the time, although I wished it were. To ensure that bus services are profitable, or don't incur too large a loss, they often schedule buses by the hour or half-hourly. Given that one can possibly get a used car for a couple to four thousand dollars, anyone who can afford to drive would drive.

This is not Singapore mind you, where used cars are bloody expensive.
Hey, I liked the fact that used cars are expensive. If given the choice, I would rather raise the COE and the ERP tax much higher.

Back on topic: In regards to the US, the better alternative is to scrap the idea of suburbs altogether, although that is an impossible goal. Other than that, nationalise public transport (which is an impossible goal in regards to US)

Sigh, I just hope for the sake of the world as a whole Amtrak can be much more popular.
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Re: Americans Drive Less, Creating a Problem

Post by Fingolfin_Noldor »

ray245 wrote:Hey, I liked the fact that used cars are expensive. If given the choice, I would rather raise the COE and the ERP tax much higher.
I think the better idea is to return the era where COE was issued very sparingly a month. And public transport boosted heavily because right now, public transport sucks .
Back on topic: In regards to the US, the better alternative is to scrap the idea of suburbs altogether, although that is an impossible goal. Other than that, nationalise public transport (which is an impossible goal in regards to US)

Sigh, I just hope for the sake of the world as a whole Amtrak can be much more popular.
Public transport here and there I believe is already nationalised or run at the behest of local government in the area. I have yet to hear of public transport not run by a government agency.

This again is not SIngapore where the motherfucking government "privatises" everything and then hold stakes in the public listed companies
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Re: Americans Drive Less, Creating a Problem

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While the article says the US is paying 18.4 cents a gallon in taxes, each person is probably paying closer to the UK's level of $2.85, once you factor in the money from income taxes.
Sorry but I don't understand how you can equate paying income to paying fuel duty. Is there something obvious I'm missing?
Well, what's wrong with redeveloping a better public transport system, so that you can actually give up your car and make use of a public transport like a train or a bus that allows you to travel 90 miles and get your medicine?
A) Cost. In the UK at least public transport is much more expensive than even our current high petrol prices. When I was going by train to university it cost me triple what the cost would have been in petrol, and that was with a £3 parking charge.

B) Convenience. Unless you live in a big city public transport sucks for getting from A to B. Especially for long distances as the likelihood of being able to simply use a single journey to get where you need to be is very low. For me to get to work for example I would need to take five buses, and still have a ten minute walk at each end.

C) Rural areas usually don’t even have regular public transport. The village my grandparents live in has a single bus into my town in the morning that returns at five pm. Not exactly convenient.
Hey, I liked the fact that used cars are expensive
Because you live in a big city right? Most people don't and outside of big cities public transport sucks.
Back on topic: In regards to the US, the better alternative is to scrap the idea of suburbs altogether
Well it would certainly help house prices to suddenly demolish a good chunk of the housing stock. I’m not sure on how you would do that short of nuclear war though.
I have yet to hear of public transport not run by a government agency.
Don't come to the UK then, everything to do with public transport is privatised. The bus companies have monopolies on all the local contracts and as such can raise their prices astronomically while train companies are lumbered by costly government leases on the track that actually exceed the estimated profit they rake in, forcing them to raise fares even more.
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Re: Americans Drive Less, Creating a Problem

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ray245 wrote:In regards to the US, the better alternative is to scrap the idea of suburbs altogether,
Not remotely feasible. Heck, to get anywhere near what you're talking about in your no-private cars fantasy land would require the re-location of hundreds of millions of people all across North America. It's not just the US that has suburbs and lots of cars but all of North America! Trying to do that on anything less than a generational scale would require a Stalinesque approach to it that would destroy those attempting it.

I'm all for shifting the a significant part (or all) of the tax burden and infrastructure costs of the surburbs back to the surburbs and letting nature take it's course from there. The price paid per capita for the suburbs, let alone the exurban areas developed in recent decades, is pretty appalling. It can be orders of magnitude higher depending on the state and it's something that has to be addressed. It's not sustainable either environmentally nor socially. I'm for that sort of change but you're going a lot further than is ever going to be readily accepted.

Scrapping suburbs entirely is rather insane. If you've ever compared North American cities to those of Europe or South East Asia, you'll find they're absolutely sprawling. There's no way we're ever going to approach the population densities you take for granted. It's simply not desirable for social and economic reasons even if it does impose other challenges. There's always going to be a demand for personally directed transportation in North America. Confining it to public transit or human power is frankly rather improbable as things stand.

Ray, I don't know where you're coming up with all this but you really should make an effort to understand things a little better before making sweeping statements. I've taken Urban Design classes and know a little something about this stuff. And I can say, you don't seem to grasp a lot of the basic facts driving the transportation and urban infrastructure in North America.
ray245 wrote:although that is an impossible goal. Other than that, nationalise public transport (which is an impossible goal in regards to US)
Public transit is almost always run by the government and where's it not the government usually have a major stake in those that do. There is really nothing to nationalize. Nor do I see what possible effect nationalizing would have when public transit is uniformly run off public subsidies anyway.
ray245 wrote:Sigh, I just hope for the sake of the world as a whole Amtrak can be much more popular.
Ray, I'm afraid you just don't grasp the difference between your country and those of North America. The distances involved are much greater with all the difficulties that implies. Further more, despite the attitudes of some much of that land is either sparesly developed or not at all. I suspect that economic factors will force an expansion of freight and passenger service.

But frankly, your model of how North American transit should operate won't come to pass until there are no other options, if then.
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Re: Americans Drive Less, Creating a Problem

Post by Fingolfin_Noldor »

Darth Tanner wrote:Don't come to the UK then, everything to do with public transport is privatised. The bus companies have monopolies on all the local contracts and as such can raise their prices astronomically while train companies are lumbered by costly government leases on the track that actually exceed the estimated profit they rake in, forcing them to raise fares even more.
It is the same with Singapore, but Ray was talking in the context of the United States.
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Re: Americans Drive Less, Creating a Problem

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ray245 wrote:Cars in essence is a luxury item.
Why can't individual human beings be allowed to possess the technological means to make their lives easier and more convenient?
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Re: Americans Drive Less, Creating a Problem

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Shroom Man 777 wrote:Why can't individual human beings be allowed to possess the technological means to make their lives easier and more convenient?
Isn't that pretty much the definition of a luxury item? Something you can possess to make your life easier and more convenient? If we exclude the whole technical economicsy definitions.
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Re: Americans Drive Less, Creating a Problem

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Teebs wrote:
Shroom Man 777 wrote:Why can't individual human beings be allowed to possess the technological means to make their lives easier and more convenient?
Isn't that pretty much the definition of a luxury item? Something you can possess to make your life easier and more convenient? If we exclude the whole technical economicsy definitions.
if that's the case, then get off the internet. it is a luxury and you don't need it. I'll take that phone too. And the television.
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Re: Americans Drive Less, Creating a Problem

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ray245 wrote:Well, what's wrong with redeveloping a better public transport system, so that you can actually give up your car and make use of a public transport like a train or a bus that allows you to travel 90 miles and get your medicine?

If the public transportation is refined, you don't need a car to get your medicines.

Cars in essence is a luxury item.
Do you understand that my county is the size of your entire country? I really don't want to sound too offensive here, but to develop mass-transit on Singapore's scale across the entire United States would cost probably trillions of dollars, and would require eminent domaining millions of people's homes to get railroad lines that make sense. Cars are a luxury in our biggest metropoliton areas-I don't take a car into Manhattan unless there's a very compelling reason to do so. Seventy miles east, it's another matter entirely. If I wish to finish college and be gainfully employed as a substitute teacher, I require a car. Period.

Now, that said, I'd love for us to get a better mass transit system here on Long Island-mostly on the North/South axis, as we're fairly well covered East-West until you get onto the forks-but really, you're not going to replace the million and a half cars on Long Island easily, cheaply, or in anything less than a generational time scale.
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Re: Americans Drive Less, Creating a Problem

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Teebs wrote:
Shroom Man 777 wrote:Why can't individual human beings be allowed to possess the technological means to make their lives easier and more convenient?
Isn't that pretty much the definition of a luxury item? Something you can possess to make your life easier and more convenient? If we exclude the whole technical economicsy definitions.
Get off the internet and go huddle in a dark, dank cave. Fire is a luxury by that definition.
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