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Having seen some TOS episodes recently, I noticed that Spock is continually insulting to humans. He often comments about how pleased he is that he is not human (not realizing that to be pleased with oneself is, itself, an emotion). In fact, if his behaviour was applied to a race instead of a species, we would not hesitate to call him a racist asshole.

How is this reconciled with his claim to be above emotion? Does it not occur to the people who write Vulcan characters on Star Trek that the Vulcans' continual derision and belittlement of other species serves absolutely no logical purpose?

I know why I insult stupid people; it amuses me. But I never claimed to be above or beyond emotion.

If I remember right, Leonard Nimoy said that for the first season, Spock, as a character, was really inconsistent because they weren't sure what to do with him. Is his behavior more consistent and logical from season 2 onward? I don't own any TOS videos, so I can't check myself.

I'm sure I got that from "I am Spock".

also from drawing from ENT (I know not the best possible source) it seems Vulcans are (somewhat) arrogant and hypocritical about other races and their own "lack" of emotion.

so Spock being raised on Vulcan could actually inherited these features without being himself aware of it.

Darmalus wrote:If I remember right, Leonard Nimoy said that for the first season, Spock, as a character, was really inconsistent because they weren't sure what to do with him. Is his behavior more consistent and logical from season 2 onward? I don't own any TOS videos, so I can't check myself.

I'm sure I got that from "I am Spock".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWbSXjZlZ7U
Here you go.
Anyway, 2nd season and Spock continues to insult humanity (at the end he mockingly refers to the individuals from the mirror universe as the peak of humanity.)

I always thought Spock was struggling with being half human and therefore didn't have as much control over his emotions as other Vulcans may have had. Take the TOS episode "Amok Time" Spock showed emotion when he realized that he hadn't killed Kirk.

Spock certainly liked to claim he was above emotion, but quite clearly wasn't —though he would at times admit it. At a guess, I'd say compensation syndrome accounts for it; bound up with his effort to show he was a "true" Vulcan despite his birth. Part of it also may have been reactionary to the racism cast at himself, particulary from McCoy (even a bit from Kirk, his best friend). It did seem, though, that this attitude was very much muted in the third season of TOS (indeed, Spock's whole character seemed to become much more subtle and zen-like). Perhaps he had begun, in that year, to see that his quest for perfection in the Vulcan ideal was illogical since it denied part of what he himself was; a change brought about by adopting the philosophy of IDIC, possibly. Failing the Kolinahr test and his subsequent encounter with V'ger in TMP seemed to have been the biggest step he took in the evolution of his own personality as he resumed the embrace of his own totality.

In TWOK, we see a Spock that had much matured and was quite comfortable with his emotional side, and more familiar with human foible —especially in himself. This process, slightly interrupted by one small complication or two, continued until we see the Spock in TUC who was able to laugh at the idea of seeing the Vulcan way as the only way. "Logic, logic and logic" he says, imitating his mother when he speaks to Valeris, "logic is the beginning of wisdom, Valeris, not it's end." By that point, it's apparent that Spock had matured long past the Vulcan idealist and would probably agree in retrospect that his attitudes toward humans had been racist.

I think it goes beyond the Spock character not being devolved. Remember that DS9 episode where the Vulcan captain and crew played the crew of DS9 at baseball, that guy got off on his contempt for humans. Vulcan's lack of emotion is like stereotypical upper class British lack of emotion, both show emotion but in a cold sterile way.

Darmalus wrote:If I remember right, Leonard Nimoy said that for the first season, Spock, as a character, was really inconsistent because they weren't sure what to do with him. Is his behavior more consistent and logical from season 2 onward? I don't own any TOS videos, so I can't check myself.

I'm sure I got that from "I am Spock".

Hell, in the pilot episode The Cage they had Spock smiling, laughing and otherwise showing all sorts of emotions.

Vulcans aren't naturally emotionless: neurologically they're much more like humans than they let on, and the non-emotional thing is a product of their culture; a learned behavior. Just look at Romulans, who are biologically the same species but act much more human-like because they don't share that culture.

With that in mind, it's pretty easy to imagine that surpressed emotions would still influence their actions. Even if you do your best to ignore your emotions you're still going to feel them.

I always got the impression that Spock was just doing some good-natured ribbing, and didn't believe that superiority nonsense any more than McCoy believed that Spock's ears were the sign of the devil.

I didn't think that Vulcans ever claimed to have no emotions, just to have superior control over them. That along side the fact that Spock is half human and his life was a constant struggle to control his emotions, could easily explain his pride.

Havok wrote:I didn't think that Vulcans ever claimed to have no emotions, just to have superior control over them.

Indeed, Tuvok once stated that Vulcan emotions were far stronger than humans', hence why they went to such lengths to control them.

Captain Seafort wrote:

Havok wrote:I didn't think that Vulcans ever claimed to have no emotions, just to have superior control over them.

Indeed, Tuvok once stated that Vulcan emotions were far stronger than humans', hence why they went to such lengths to control them.

That follows on what Spock once told Commissioner Beale of the planet Cheron in "Let That Be Your Last Battlefield":

Commissioner, perhaps the example of my home planet might be of some help. Vulcan was at one time facing the same dangers as Cheron. We were once a people much like yourselves; wildly emotional, given to irrational and violently opposing viewpoints. Only the discipline of logic saved us from destruction.

Also, I think it is entirely fair to call the Vulcans racist assholes, as they generally are. At the very least they have a culturally reinforced bigotry. Have we ever heard anything to the contrary? They seem, nearly without fail, to look down on all other species and merely tolerate humans individually rather than as a group. The alliance they hold with the Federation appears more out of the need for cooperation than a desire for it, and we know they have their own independant crews.

From what we've seen, they they emotions as dangerous and socially irresponsible, so it is quite likely that young Vulcans learn to squash them with equal measures of instruction and insult. The social pressure is probably maintained through the same kinds of negative reinforcement that we see here with fundies trying to repress the social emotions of gay people, so that mildly insulting tone for anyone not of rigorously controlled Vulcan culture could just be a carry-over from their own.

Do the characters ever talk about growing up as a Vulcan? Childhood must be hell. Unless they are very deliberately seperated from wider federation culture I would think they'd have access to a lot of emotionally stimulating media. Do we know at what age they start shutting down these emotions?

According to the semi-canonical TAS episode "Yesteryear", each Vulcan undergoes the Kas-Wahn Test at age seven, which decides which path they will follow through their lives. Spock was expected to choose either the Vulcan or Human way, and he often faced hazing and bigotry from the other Vulcan children because of his mixed heritage (confirming the rememberance of Amanda from "Journey To Babel"). Spock chose Vulcan when he had to decide to have his pet sehlat put down after being poisoned by the bite of a le-matya.

Covenant wrote:Do the characters ever talk about growing up as a Vulcan? Childhood must be hell. Unless they are very deliberately seperated from wider federation culture I would think they'd have access to a lot of emotionally stimulating media. Do we know at what age they start shutting down these emotions?

We have two snippets from Tuvok about his childhood. On one occasion, he was sent out into the Vulcan desert naked with a ceremonial blade and had to survive for several months. On another, when he appeared to be in his early to mid teens, he was sent to a vulcan master living in a cave to train his emotions in order to get over some girl. Given the master didn't seem particularly shocked, I'd guess children start shutting down as they enter adulthood. It would make sense, given that it would be less likely for emotionless children to tease a young Spock.

The short of it is that Spock (and Vulcans as a whole) aren't as free of emotion as they'd like to think. Add in that they believe themselves to be more advanced and thus "superior", and you're bound to get assholish behavior.

That Spock considers Kirk his friend shows he's got some level of emotion going on. There's a difference between looking at Kirk's skills and position and deciding it would be logical to be friendly and helpful toward him and actually considering him a friend, rather than what amounts to a tool.

That's a good point. A truly emotionless being would be a rational sociopath that would base all its interactions with other entities on game theory. Friendship and love are fundamentally the products of emotion.

Actually it might be interesting to compile various Vulcan behaviors that seem to stem directly from emotion:

1) Art. I seem to remember seeing some examples of Vulcan art, like that thing hanging in Spock's quarters in ST: IV, or embroidered robes. Art seems a pretty emotion-based thing.

2) Their crews wear clothing on starships, don't they? I know it sounds silly, but from a totally rationalist perspective would it make sense to bother with clothing in a totally climate-controlled environment, aside from utility belts and spacesuits? It suggests they have a nudity taboo like we do, which is pretty obviously an emotion-based thing.

well a lack of nudity taboo doesn't have to mean you strip to birthday suit every chance you get, there's reasons to wear clothes besides convering your naughty parts and social inertia is a really powerfull thing. which though still is a emotion based argument but so.

you're right about the art thing though.

I can hardly think of a single Vulcan who was ever shown to be emotionless. They plain and simply aren't; it's something they desperately want to be, and some come closer than others, but the show has been perfectly upfront that underneath the façade they are bubbling cauldrons, even the ones that aren't hybrids. Just think of the times when Vulcans' self-control is taken away; Sarek turned into a blubbering wreck, Soval was just about ready to tear Shran limb-from-limb, T'Pol went nuts when her drug habit was at its worst. Vulcans aren't unemotional, they've just refined suppression into an art.

Bounty wrote:I can hardly think of a single Vulcan who was ever shown to be emotionless. They plain and simply aren't; it's something they desperately want to be, and some come closer than others, but the show has been perfectly upfront that underneath the façade they are bubbling cauldrons, even the ones that aren't hybrids. Just think of the times when Vulcans' self-control is taken away; Sarek turned into a blubbering wreck, Soval was just about ready to tear Shran limb-from-limb, T'Pol went nuts when her drug habit was at its worst. Vulcans aren't unemotional, they've just refined suppression into an art.

They also turn into uncontrollable psychotics every 7 years with Pon Farr.

Until they get their rocks off, correct?

Didn't Spock make mention to Data about how it was ironic that they were both searching for that which the other already possessed, but neither wanted?

Also, from what we have seen, and IIRC, the Vulcans predominantly featured in the shows and movies, aside from Spock, and Sarek, all tend to be on the young side for Vulcans. Perhaps the struggle to control emotions is something that takes a Vulcan life time to master?

Havok wrote: Also, from what we have seen, and IIRC, the Vulcans predominantly featured in the shows and movies, aside from Spock, and Sarek, all tend to be on the young side for Vulcans. Perhaps the struggle to control emotions is something that takes a Vulcan life time to master?

Not entirely true, since Tuvok wasn't a young Vulcan, he's > 100 if IIRC. He was a young officer under Captain Sulu on Excelsior.

Ok. So did Tuvok express the same contempt and pride that Mike is talking about?

And WTF. Tim Russ wasn't a Vulcan character when he was on the Excelsior?

Havok wrote:Ok. So did Tuvok express the same contempt and pride that Mike is talking about?

And WTF. Tim Russ wasn't a Vulcan character when he was on the Excelsior?

Tim Russ played an unnamed human extra on the Enterprise-B in Generations. A few years later, the Voyager staff wanted to do a flashback episode to that era (appropriately titled "Flashback"), with Tim Russ as Tuvok on the Excelsior itself. It's confusing because it's the same actor on the same model of ship on pretty much the same set in the same era and uniform playing a different character.