Name Not on Our List? Change It, China Says

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Name Not on Our List? Change It, China Says

Post by ray245 »

NYT
BEIJING — “Ma,” a Chinese character for horse, is the 13th most common family name in China, shared by nearly 17 million people. That can cause no end of confusion when Mas get together, especially if those Mas also share the same given name, as many Chinese do.

Shiho Fukada for The New York Times
Ma Cheng must renew a temporary card every three months in order to keep her unique name.

Ma Cheng’s book-loving grandfather came up with an elegant solution to this common problem. Twenty-six years ago, when his granddaughter was born, he combed through his library of Chinese dictionaries and lighted upon a character pronounced “cheng.” Cheng, which means galloping steeds, looks just like the character for horse, except that it is condensed and written three times in a row.

The character is so rare that once people see it, Miss Ma said, they tend to remember both her and her name. That is one reason she likes it so much.

That is also why the government wants her to change it.

For Ma Cheng and millions of others, Chinese parents’ desire to give their children a spark of individuality is colliding head-on with the Chinese bureaucracy’s desire for order. Seeking to modernize its vast database on China’s 1.3 billion citizens, the government’s Public Security Bureau has been replacing the handwritten identity card that every Chinese must carry with a computer-readable one, complete with color photos and embedded microchips. The new cards are harder to forge and can be scanned at places like airports where security is a priority.

The bureau’s computers, however, are programmed to read only 32,252 of the roughly 55,000 Chinese characters, according to a 2006 government report. The result is that Miss Ma and at least some of the 60 million other Chinese with obscure characters in their names cannot get new cards — unless they change their names to something more common.

Moreover, the situation is about to get worse or, in the government’s view, better. Since at least 2003, China has been working on a standardized list of characters for people to use in everyday life, including when naming children.

One newspaper reported last week that the list would be issued later this year and would curb the use of obscure names. A government linguistics official told Xinhua, the state-run news agency, that the list would include more than 8,000 characters. Although that is far fewer than the database now supposedly includes, the official said it was more than enough “to convey any concept in any field.” About 3,500 characters are in everyday use.

Government officials suggest that names have gotten out of hand, with too many parents picking the most obscure characters they can find or even making up characters, like linguistic fashion accessories. But many Chinese couples take pride in searching the rich archives of classical Chinese to find a distinctive, pleasing name, partly to help their children stand out in a society with strikingly few surnames.

By some estimates, 100 surnames cover 85 percent of China’s citizens. Laobaixing, or “old hundred names,” is a colloquial term for the masses. By contrast, 70,000 surnames cover 90 percent of Americans.

The number of Chinese family names in use has tended to shrink as China’s population has grown, a winnowing of surnames that has occurred in many cultures over time.

At last count, China’s Wangs were leading with more than 92 million, followed by 91 million Lis and 86 million Zhangs. To refer to an unidentified person — the equivalent of “just anybody” in English — one Chinese saying can be loosely translated this way: “some Zhang, some Li.”

The potential for mix-ups is vast. There are nearly enough Chinese named Zhang Wei to populate the city of Pittsburgh. Nicknames are liberally bestowed in classrooms and workplaces to tell people apart. Confronting three students named Liu Fang, for example, one middle-school teacher nicknamed them Big, Little and Middle.

Wang Daliang, a linguistics scholar with the China Youth University for Political Science, said picking rare characters for given names only compounded the problem and inconvenienced everyone. “Using obscure names to avoid duplication of names or to be unique is not good,” he wrote in an e-mail response to questions.

“Now a lot of people are perplexed by their names,” he said. “The computer cannot even recognize them and people cannot read them. This has become an obstacle in communication.”

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Read All Comments (93) »But Professor Zhou Youyong, dean of Southeast University’s law school, said the government should tread carefully in issuing any new regulation. “The right to name children is a basic right of citizens,” he said.

Miss Ma said that while her given name was unusual, bank employees, passport control clerks and ticket agents had always managed to deal with it, usually by writing it by hand. But when she tried to renew her identity card last August, she said, Beijing public security officials turned her down flat.

“Your name is so troublesome and problematic,” she recalled an official telling her. “Just change it.”

Miss Ma argues that the government’s technology should adapt, not her.

“There were no such regulations when I was born, so I should be entitled to keep my name for my whole life,” she said. If she changes her name to get an identity card, she noted, it will be wrong on all of her other documents, like her passport and university diploma.

Besides, she said, “I can’t think of another, better name.”

Using the time-honored Chinese method of backdoor connections, Miss Ma was able to get a temporary card in January. She must renew it every three months but considers that a small sacrifice for keeping her name.

Zhao C., a 23-year-old college student, gave up the fight for his. His father, a lawyer, chose the letter C from the English alphabet, saying it was simple, memorable and stood for China.

When he could not get a new identity card in 2006, Zhao C. sued. But security officials convinced him that it would cost millions of dollars to alter the database, his father said, so he dropped the suit in February.

His case might suggest that resistance against China’s powerful bureaucracy was futile. Still, the government’s plan to limit the use of characters has not gone all that smoothly.

The new rules were originally supposed to be issued by 2005. Now, 70 revisions later, they have yet to be put in place.

An official this week batted away questions, saying publicity might delay the rules even longer.
It is funny to see the New York Times and the International Herald Tribune painting this action as the government wanting to oppress the people more as compared to the government finding it necessary to adapt to a logistical nightmare.

It would be much better if more Chinese in the mainland decides to adopt a 3 character name as compared to a 2 character name, if they want to differntiate their children from others.
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Re: Name Not on Our List? Change It, China Says

Post by erik_t »

Why? ASCII supports 128 characters; UTF-16 encodes about 65,000. 16-bit computing is not exactly a new thing. I do not claim that moving from small-range to large-range encodings is nontrivial, but neither is it unheard-of to support many tens of thousands of characters. And Unicode-16 is fundamentally an alphabetical encoding.

Why must Chinese citizens truncate or simplify their names (by less than an order of magnitude) when alphabetical systems have already shown the capability to grow in capacity by three orders of magnitude without undue expense?
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Re: Name Not on Our List? Change It, China Says

Post by White Haven »

Given all the recent news stories of Chinese hackers, likely in their intelligence community, going after classified information and infrastructure control systems, it can't even be credibly claimed that they lack the computing expertise for the task.
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Re: Name Not on Our List? Change It, China Says

Post by TheKwas »

As a reference for people trying to grasp how big of a number 55,000 is when it comes to characters, some estimates say that the French language has about 100,000 words. In short, there is almost a Chinese character for every 2 french words in existence. What we refer to as 'Old English' has something like 50,000 words.

I don't know much about the computing problems associated with all these different characters, but that's pretty mindblowing all on its own.
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Re: Name Not on Our List? Change It, China Says

Post by Samuel »

White Haven wrote:Given all the recent news stories of Chinese hackers, likely in their intelligence community, going after classified information and infrastructure control systems, it can't even be credibly claimed that they lack the computing expertise for the task.
Obviously if they are using it for the intelligence community it can't be used for things like this :wink:
erik_t wrote:Why? ASCII supports 128 characters; UTF-16 encodes about 65,000. 16-bit computing is not exactly a new thing. I do not claim that moving from small-range to large-range encodings is nontrivial, but neither is it unheard-of to support many tens of thousands of characters. And Unicode-16 is fundamentally an alphabetical encoding.

Why must Chinese citizens truncate or simplify their names (by less than an order of magnitude) when alphabetical systems have already shown the capability to grow in capacity by three orders of magnitude without undue expense?
Because the employees who deal with the codes would have to learn every single one of the symbols?
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Re: Name Not on Our List? Change It, China Says

Post by DarkAscendant »

Stargate Nerd wrote:This is why, if I ever was Totalitarian ruler of the Earth, I'd make every nation, country and culture adopt the Latin alphabet. :lol:

Seriously though I have to support the Chinese government's action here.
55,000 Chinese characters and growing is a bit much to deal with.
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Re: Name Not on Our List? Change It, China Says

Post by Lord of the Abyss »

Thing is, having identical names ALSO causes problems. I recall hearing of a Chinese court case years ago where the judge, the accused, AND the prosecution & defense lawyers all had the same name. Plus, there was a fellow who'd been arrested and released earlier, because he had the same name. The Chinese need more names, not fewer.
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Re: Name Not on Our List? Change It, China Says

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So this is like a whole nation of Prince?

If the 32,000 characters Chinese parents have to work with are analogous to the 26 letters English speakers somehow get by with, my sympathy is limited. If people are already making up names to stand out, why can't they just use a name a few characters longer?
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Re: Name Not on Our List? Change It, China Says

Post by Lord of the Abyss »

LMSx wrote:If the 32,000 characters Chinese parents have to work with are analogous to the 26 letters English speakers somehow get by with, my sympathy is limited. If people are already making up names to stand out, why can't they just use a name a few characters longer?
Because it's not an alphabetical language. One symbol equals one word. And if officials are huffing over using rare names, they'll be even huffier over using extra names.
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Re: Name Not on Our List? Change It, China Says

Post by Johonebesus »

LMSx wrote:So this is like a whole nation of Prince?

If the 32,000 characters Chinese parents have to work with are analogous to the 26 letters English speakers somehow get by with, my sympathy is limited. If people are already making up names to stand out, why can't they just use a name a few characters longer?
They aren't analogous to our letters. Their characters are used for entire words. Therefore a name is normally written with only one character per word. Given that one character is the family name that wouldn't be changed, and that a great many characters no doubt would make for bizarre, rude, or gibberish names, this does significantly limit their options.
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Re: Name Not on Our List? Change It, China Says

Post by TheKwas »

I'm pretty sure most Chinese given names are two characters long, LotA. Each character equals one 'meaning' and one sound, but you simply group two characters in order to create a given name.

Example, Mao Zedong: Mao (one character, one sound, one Surname) Zedong (two characters, two syallabels, one given name).

Parents could easily add in a third character if they want to make their child's name more unique without relying on dead characters that are impratical. I mean, I'm sure I could find Prince's symbol if I tried hard enough but it's very impratical and I wouldn't want everyone's name to be similarly annoying.
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Re: Name Not on Our List? Change It, China Says

Post by TheKwas »

I probably should mention that the middle character (the first character in the given name) often acts as a sort of middle name that all family members of a given generation (cousins and siblings) are given as a sort of generation marker. I'm not completely up to date but I was given the impression that this is more of a traditional custom and is on the decline in China due to looser family ties.
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Re: Name Not on Our List? Change It, China Says

Post by Havok »

The problem doesn't seem to be the amount of characters the Chinese use, it seems to be the lack of variety in surnames. There just doesn't seem to be anyway to diversify that.
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Re: Name Not on Our List? Change It, China Says

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Johonebesus wrote:
LMSx wrote:So this is like a whole nation of Prince?

If the 32,000 characters Chinese parents have to work with are analogous to the 26 letters English speakers somehow get by with, my sympathy is limited. If people are already making up names to stand out, why can't they just use a name a few characters longer?
They aren't analogous to our letters. Their characters are used for entire words. Therefore a name is normally written with only one character per word. Given that one character is the family name that wouldn't be changed, and that a great many characters no doubt would make for bizarre, rude, or gibberish names, this does significantly limit their options.
I concede ignorance then. (And might continue down that path by wondering, if people are wholesale resurrecting ancient names simply because they sound nice, surely there exists some combination of the allowable 32,000 that fit the same standard?)

...Maybe I'm not getting the relation between Western words and Chinese characters, because TheKwas's comparison between the Chinese and French languages now makes it sound like China has a lot less to work with.
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Re: Name Not on Our List? Change It, China Says

Post by LMSx »

Just missed the edit deadline for the last post. Sorry.

Second try: the 50,000+ Chinese characters are like the 100,000 words in French, except instead of French words being a relatively easily handled variety of alphabetical letters, Chinese use unique symbols to denote the entire word. Hence the problem?
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Re: Name Not on Our List? Change It, China Says

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Re: Name Not on Our List? Change It, China Says

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Havok wrote:The problem doesn't seem to be the amount of characters the Chinese use, it seems to be the lack of variety in surnames. There just doesn't seem to be anyway to diversify that.
Well, there is one way that they could do diversify their surnames, and they wouldn't even have to modify their bookkeeping that much to handle it. At the moment, most Chinese surnames have one character, but there are a few with two characters, which means that the system is set up to have two-character surnames. If they just allowed people to give both parents' surnames to the child when the child is born (like with hyphenated names today) then you would add a lot of diversity right there.

Something like that might even prove to be popular, given that the one child policy means that plenty of people only have a girl and thus will have their branch of the family name die out, as it were.
LMSx wrote:Second try: the 50,000+ Chinese characters are like the 100,000 words in French, except instead of French words being a relatively easily handled variety of alphabetical letters, Chinese use unique symbols to denote the entire word. Hence the problem?
More or less. Classical Chinese is as you describe, but in modern Chinese, it's more like one character per concept, and most words contain two or three characters. It still means they have the same problem with people having to remember thousands of characters, though.

And it's not just the sound that people consider, but also the meaning, so when people are resurrecting old characters, they're not doing it merely for the sound, but for the meaning as well.

As for why they don't just adopt a phonetic system, almost all of the characters are homophones, so having a phonetic alphabet would just confuse the situation even more.
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Re: Name Not on Our List? Change It, China Says

Post by Netko »

Samuel wrote:
erik_t wrote:Why? ASCII supports 128 characters; UTF-16 encodes about 65,000. 16-bit computing is not exactly a new thing. I do not claim that moving from small-range to large-range encodings is nontrivial, but neither is it unheard-of to support many tens of thousands of characters. And Unicode-16 is fundamentally an alphabetical encoding.

Why must Chinese citizens truncate or simplify their names (by less than an order of magnitude) when alphabetical systems have already shown the capability to grow in capacity by three orders of magnitude without undue expense?
Because the employees who deal with the codes would have to learn every single one of the symbols?
To expand on this - most keyboards around the world have 100-ish keys, plus minus a few depending on the exact layout. European layouts already use the right alt key as Alt Gr, or a modifier key which gets you special characters, because keys which in the US layout are used for symbols (; : \ etc.) are needed to cover the expanded Latin alphabets of those countries. And this is with 30-ish character alphabets.

The Chinese system is simply a mess to do with the current main input method - the keyboard. There are various attempts at solutions, but at the end of the day, you simply aren't going to be entering 50000 characters without using some sort of coding system for them. Or a humongous Character Map application. Both of which are an extreme pain in the ass, and I don't really begrudge the Chinese for wanting to keep things manageable. They're simply screwed by their cultural traditions (naming scheme) combined with their alphabet hitting modern computing which isn't designed for it.
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Re: Name Not on Our List? Change It, China Says

Post by mr friendly guy »

I thought compound surnames were rare these days. The only ones I heard of are from martial arts stories set centuries ago like SiMa, YeLui (granted its a Khitan name), and OuYang.

In any event I am sure its possible to adapt the computer system to read it, but the limiting step is not so much that computers can't be made to recognise it, but that if its not a well recognised character the average person cannot read it. Its not like English where even if you haven't heard the name before, you can guess at the pronounciation by sounding it out.
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Re: Name Not on Our List? Change It, China Says

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mr friendly guy wrote:I thought compound surnames were rare these days. The only ones I heard of are from martial arts stories set centuries ago like SiMa, YeLui (granted its a Khitan name), and OuYang.
Rare, but they still exist. One of my students is an OuYang, as a matter of fact.
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Re: Name Not on Our List? Change It, China Says

Post by Count Chocula »

It appears that the Chinese government has run into a fundamental incompatibility between their written language and the use of computers. As previously noted, each Chinese character is a word; there is no alphabet as Westerners use it. Chinese has more in common with Egyptian heiroglyphics than English, French, Spanish, German, Arabic, etc. From what I understand, rather than use a phonetic alphabet to reproduce each word, the Chinese are trying to use each pictogram as its own object.

From what I've read, the Japanese have adapted Kanji to allow for simple use with computers, by spelling the phonetic components, tenses and conjugations with ASCII characters. Why can't the Chinese government do that? There's no shortage of unique Japanese names, but Beijing's "solution" to their own data processing issues is to further limit the individuality of their citizens. Wierd.
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Re: Name Not on Our List? Change It, China Says

Post by ray245 »

From what I recall, the chinese govt make use of the hanyu pinyin to type out chinese word. As a user of this system it is hard to type out words that isn't well known.
The pinyin system only allow you to find the sound of the character, but there are hundreds of word that share the exact same sound. Which means in order to find some unrecongizable character that a person can't even pronounce, he have comb through hundred or thousand of characters. Can you imagine someone spending 20 over minutes to type out a name? In a nation of 1 billion over people? That's why NYT's criticism of the chinese govt restricting people's freedom and the ccp being oppresive is stupid.
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Re: Name Not on Our List? Change It, China Says

Post by Lusankya »

Count Chocula wrote:From what I've read, the Japanese have adapted Kanji to allow for simple use with computers, by spelling the phonetic components, tenses and conjugations with ASCII characters. Why can't the Chinese government do that? There's no shortage of unique Japanese names, but Beijing's "solution" to their own data processing issues is to further limit the individuality of their citizens. Wierd.
Erm, they can write characters using a computer. Watch: 你是厕所头。干你妈。See? The problem of how to input the characters into a computer has been solved for quite a while.

The problems are probably two-fold:

a), the characters they're considering removing are so rare that the effort of coding the character wasn't worth it and

b) the characters they're considering removing are so rare that it's unlikely that anyone who doesn't have the character as their name will recognise them.

As for why Japan has more unique names, consider the following:

a) Japanese surnames usually have two characters, which adds variety right there.

b) Japanese names can have the same characters but different sounds, which adds variety without changing the characters. The Chinese language doesn't have this flexibility.

c) If they really feel like being creative, Japanese speakers can use a technique called "Make some shit up". This is actually possible in their language, but not in Chinese.


PS, the fact that you talk about "tenses" and "conjugations" in the same sentence as "Chinese language" shows that you are laughably ignorant of the Chinese language.

EDIT: Ray got in before me. Go Ray!

EDIT 2: They can also input it in wubi, but most mainlanders pefer Pinyin, I think.
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Re: Name Not on Our List? Change It, China Says

Post by Count Chocula »

Lusankya wrote:PS, the fact that you talk about "tenses" and "conjugations" in the same sentence as "Chinese language" shows that you are laughably ignorant of the Chinese language.
Yes. Yes, I am; I have very limited knowledge of language structures aside from English, Latin & Romance languages, and German. The "Make some shit up" flexibility in Japanese is common to the languages I'm familiar with, especially English.

I'm still trying, and failing apparently, to wrap my head around limiting a vocabulary due to coding headaches. ray245's explanation of hanyu pinyin clarified it a little for me, but heck, why don't the Chinese just issue citizen numbers like American social security numbers? That way a citizen's ID is readily referenced, and they can call themselves anything they want; whatever hassle there would be from coding obscure ideograms would only have to be done once. If they already do that, why is this such an issue?
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