Fun With: Genetic Sequencing

[rhoenix]

To preface this, each of my previous Fun With threads have provided some good suggestions for development of those other concepts in the framework of a scifi sort of universe - so, thank you to who've replied thus far, and a pre-emptive thank you for all who might reply in this one.

This thread concerns what is possible for alteration of the human genome and body, with the following separate objectives:

- Human adaptation to non-Earth environments (high-G / Low-G / underwater / extreme temperatures / different atmospheres);
- Alteration of the human genome for a "super-soldier" sort of setup (which could also be reversed)

What is possible, given current human knowledge, on both of those fronts?

[Samuel]

(high-G / Low-G / underwater / extreme temperatures / different atmospheres)

High-G needs needs stronger bones, a tougher circulatory system to deal with the increased amount of energy required for pumping.

Low-G you need to make sure that the muscles and bones don't degrade.

Extreme Temperatures.... you are fucked. There isn't alot we can do to adapt to temperature with genetic engineering.

Different atmosphere... depends on the atmosphere. Non-reactive gases are fine.

Alteration of the human genome for a "super-soldier" sort of setup (which could also be reversed)

Why? The cost is going to be high. Cheaper just to use better equipment.

[NetKnight]

Different atmosphere... depends on the atmosphere. Non-reactive gases are fine.

Oxygen's pretty fundamental. Higher tolerances to trace gasses (CO2, say) in an O2 atmosphere might possibly be remotely feasible, though.

Alteration of the human genome for a "super-soldier" sort of setup (which could also be reversed)

Why? The cost is going to be high. Cheaper just to use better equipment.

Agreed. About the best I can come up with is mental enhancement if you're fighting killbots or have some other reason not to trust AIs. Although if you're messing with brain make-up without the benefit of an AI, expect either a lot of bugs or too long a development time to be useful (or both). Plus, giving the (buggy) Damn Dirty Mutants leadership positions in a military struggle seems a... wise thing to do that no-one would possibly object to.

[rhoenix]

Why? The cost is going to be high. Cheaper just to use better equipment.

Agreed. About the best I can come up with is mental enhancement if you're fighting killbots or have some other reason not to trust AIs. Although if you're messing with brain make-up without the benefit of an AI, expect either a lot of bugs or too long a development time to be useful (or both). Plus, giving the (buggy) Damn Dirty Mutants leadership positions in a military struggle seems a... wise thing to do that no-one would possibly object to.

The reason for this is the concept of "generational soldiers;" e.g. this military's idea for becoming and propogating a new species, essentially. This is being done not only for political reasons, but also for practical ones.

The main things I'm looking for are increased reaction time, perhaps a few perks with processing of toxic gases or the like, along with the apparent standard of increased resiliency/strength/agility, and perhaps even editing of body mass to be larger.

As an adjunctive question to this one, given a scenario of a "super-soldier" sort of editing of the human genome, how the changes degrade or evolve with subsequent generations would also be a consideration.

[Samuel]

...That is an insanely bad idea. Making the military a seperate species just guarentees coups. Unless you make them a slave species in which case that makes recruitment... well, serfs running all your weaponary is a bad idea and just begs to be turned against you.

The main things I'm looking for are increased reaction time, perhaps a few perks with processing of toxic gases or the like, along with the apparent standard of increased resiliency/strength/agility, and perhaps even editing of body mass to be larger.

The first is useful- I can see SWAT loving it. They probably gain the most. Toxic gas can be handled by gas masks. Resiliency/strength/agility/size are bad ideas. Increasing them requires more energy and hence more food. Making soldiers tougher isn't incredibly useful if weapons can easily be scaled to deal with it.

The best I can think of is making bleeding out harder with clotting that is more efficient (but not too much so or it might backfire), higher endurence so you need less sleep, rest and the like. Most other changes are better done with using the right tool- you don't put steel plates in your skull, you wear a helmet.

I'd edit out some of the poorer features in the human body (bye appendixes!). Also alter the eyes so they work better. Partial nightvision might work.

[rhoenix]

...That is an insanely bad idea. Making the military a seperate species just guarentees coups. Unless you make them a slave species in which case that makes recruitment... well, serfs running all your weaponary is a bad idea and just begs to be turned against you.

Amusingly enough, you understand completely now - this whole "military" species will become a plot device.

The first is useful- I can see SWAT loving it. They probably gain the most. Toxic gas can be handled by gas masks. Resiliency/strength/agility/size are bad ideas. Increasing them requires more energy and hence more food. Making soldiers tougher isn't incredibly useful if weapons can easily be scaled to deal with it.

While true, I'm going for shades of the Space Marine from Warhammer 40k archetype, in that their organs and even genetic structure have all been "upgraded"; I'm certainly not going to copy the idea wholesale, but that was the inspiration for this, if that helps. They're not expected (or even designed) to die of old age; such things would be expected by those who design this program to be an "anomaly."

The best I can think of is making bleeding out harder with clotting that is more efficient (but not too much so or it might backfire), higher endurence so you need less sleep, rest and the like. Most other changes are better done with using the right tool- you don't put steel plates in your skull, you wear a helmet.

Agreed on these counts; the only possible amendments to this would be possible implants after the fact.

I'd edit out some of the poorer features in the human body (bye appendixes!). Also alter the eyes so they work better. Partial nightvision might work.

That's also what I was thinking; reconfiguration of the human eye and retina to mimic that of squids for better vision was one idea; borrowing further from the octopus might also include the ability to mimic color and the appearance of texture through the skin.

[Zor]

The reason for this is the concept of "generational soldiers;" e.g. this military's idea for becoming and propogating a new species, essentially. This is being done not only for political reasons, but also for practical ones.

Leaving aside the fact that this would not see results for generations, doing this is creating a military caste of the population that would be totally seperate and distinct from the general citizenry on every level. Several other civilizations tried doing a similar thing (Ottoman Jannissaries and Egyptian Mamluks) and the Results was (Respectively) everal centuries of rigidly conservative behavior that prevented reforms and westernization in the Ottoman Empire and the eventual complete and utter take over by egypt by said warrior class. No way around it, this is a BAD idea.

Zor

[rhoenix]

Leaving aside the fact that this would not see results for generations, doing this is creating a military caste of the population that would be totally seperate and distinct from the general citizenry on every level. Several other civilizations tried doing a similar thing (Ottoman Jannissaries and Egyptian Mamluks) and the Results was (Respectively) everal centuries of rigidly conservative behavior that prevented reforms and westernization in the Ottoman Empire and the eventual complete and utter take over by egypt by said warrior class. This is a BAD idea.

I agree with you. This is, societally and politically speaking a terrible idea, and one that could go wrong in many, many uncomfortable ways.

However, that same reason makes it an excellent plot device for what I have in mind, which also involves the decline and fall of a space-faring civilization. Deciding to make their military an entirely separate species was one contributing factor for their fall; I just want to make sure I get the little details right.

[NetKnight]

Well, if your society is going to play everyone's favorite game of "grab the tiger's ears, kids!", you might want to engineer in a fail-safe weakness. Of course, such a weakness can be exploited by the enemy, so its existence would really depend on how interested the society is in keeping its slave-soldiers in check versus how combat-effective they need them. Expect to see engineered fail-safes in rather static, defensively postured empires who are unused to war, and their lack where intense war is endemic and the society aggressive, etc.

[Samuel]

Well, if your society is going to play everyone's favorite game of "grab the tiger's ears, kids!", you might want to engineer in a fail-safe weakness. Of course, such a weakness can be exploited by the enemy, so its existence would really depend on how interested the society is in keeping its slave-soldiers in check versus how combat-effective they need them. Expect to see engineered fail-safes in rather static, defensively postured empires who are unused to war, and their lack where intense war is endemic and the society aggressive, etc.

Simple. They love war and fighting and their civilization provides their capacity to do that and they are engineered to find their controller race beautiful. Or have them viewed in such a way that they love the respect and find a takeover unthinkable.

I'm going for shades of the Space Marine from Warhammer 40k archetype, in that their organs and even genetic structure have all been "upgraded"; I'm certainly not going to copy the idea wholesale, but that was the inspiration for this, if that helps.

Why not have an "upgraded" animal? It makes things easier and you can spin a God complex on it? Like the Jem Hadar but non-retarded/

borrowing further from the octopus might also include the ability to mimic color and the appearance of texture through the skin.

Going the birthday route is not recommended.

[Ford Prefect]

Why? The cost is going to be high. Cheaper just to use better equipment.

What if your 'better equipment' can include combat exoskeletons capable of pulling thirty gees in straight line acceleration? What if you can produce a couple of gigawatts with a backpack generator but the amount of heat generated cannot be radiated away fast enough for human beings to survive? What if penetrating whatever material you use for armour is extremely difficult for the fragile human inside takes a fraction of the effort to kill through momentum transfer? Admittedly at this point you probably have the technology to upload a soldier's brain straight into some sort of cybernetic kill-body, but but better equipment can't totally do away with the inherent limitations of a human body.

[rhoenix]

Why not have an "upgraded" animal? It makes things easier and you can spin a God complex on it? Like the Jem Hadar but non-retarded

That's the other half of the idea, actually - each soldier "pair" will be one soldier, and one companion animal. At this point, the easiest "companion animal" will probably be a dog, or a variation thereof.

borrowing further from the octopus might also include the ability to mimic color and the appearance of texture through the skin.

Going the birthday route is not recommended.

Sorry - "Birthday route?" I'm not sure what you mean.

[rhoenix]

What if your 'better equipment' can include combat exoskeletons capable of pulling thirty gees in straight line acceleration? What if you can produce a couple of gigawatts with a backpack generator but the amount of heat generated cannot be radiated away fast enough for human beings to survive? What if penetrating whatever material you use for armour is extremely difficult for the fragile human inside takes a fraction of the effort to kill through momentum transfer? Admittedly at this point you probably have the technology to upload a soldier's brain straight into some sort of cybernetic kill-body, but but better equipment can't totally do away with the inherent limitations of a human body.

In reply (and agreement) to this, I'm not taking the tech level of this universe to be Star Wars-level, so while there will be some fun that can be done genetically, much of the difference will still be made up for technologically.

[Samuel]

Sorry - "Birthday route?" I'm not sure what you mean.

Nudity. After all, that is what camo skin implies.

[rhoenix]

Sorry - "Birthday route?" I'm not sure what you mean.

Nudity. After all, that is what camo skin implies.

Ah - not sure how I missed that one, but thank you regardless. And I would imagine yes, unless the soldier in question wanted to be the Magical Floating Underwear Ghost.

Essentially, the idea is to be somewhat similar to the Jem'Hadar from ST:DS9, come to think of it. They'd be able to wear their large stomping war armor for the main assaults, and then be able to take the armor off and perform subsequent missions.

At least, that's meant to be the "original reasoning" for why this program began in the first place.

[fgalkin]

Leaving aside the fact that this would not see results for generations, doing this is creating a military caste of the population that would be totally seperate and distinct from the general citizenry on every level. Several other civilizations tried doing a similar thing (Ottoman Jannissaries and Egyptian Mamluks) and the Results was (Respectively) everal centuries of rigidly conservative behavior that prevented reforms and westernization in the Ottoman Empire and the eventual complete and utter take over by egypt by said warrior class. This is a BAD idea.

I agree with you. This is, societally and politically speaking a terrible idea, and one that could go wrong in many, many uncomfortable ways.

However, that same reason makes it an excellent plot device for what I have in mind, which also involves the decline and fall of a space-faring civilization. Deciding to make their military an entirely separate species was one contributing factor for their fall; I just want to make sure I get the little details right.

If even Zor immediately sees it as a terrible idea, why didn't it occur to anyone in the species? Are they all stupid? Then how did they become a spece-faring civiliziation?

Unless you're writing Star Trek, I'd recommend you scrap this and move on to something else, to be honest

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Lord of the Abyss]

If even Zor immediately sees it as a terrible idea, why didn't it occur to anyone in the species? Are they all stupid? Then how did they become a spece-faring civiliziation?

Zor points out that it's a stupid idea using historical examples of cultures doing similar things. So yes, a technological species can be that stupid.

OK, a few ideas.

To steal an idea from Illegal Alien valves in the blood vessels that reflexively shut to prevent blood loss.

Regeneration, salamander style.

Radiation tolerance -we know from nonhuman species that life can be much more radiation tolerant than us. This would allow them to use equipment with less heavy shielding than humans, among other things.

Give them extra senses or broader spectrum senses ( sonar or organic radar if it's possible, ultraviolet/infrared vision, etc ). While it won't be as good as what military equipment can do, it means that they will be able to use such sensory amplification more directly and with greater simultaneity and less distortion. Instead of having to switch through various sensor modes or use a machine's interpretation of a sense they don't have, they'll be able to see "visible" light, ultraviolet and infrared night vision all at the same time without confusion. And see through walls or inside objects via radar or sonar and understand what they are seeing easily and intuitively, like a dolphin can look inside the body of a creature/object in water.

Engineer them so that surgical repair or cybernetic enhancement is easier. Everything possible will be designed with an eye to making removing and replacing them easier. Such as blood vessels and nerves being designed with natural couplers, so you can unplug a damaged segment of one, and install a new one without the ends having to heal together ( probably with an enzyme soluble sealant to keep them from leaking or coming apart when you don't want them to ). Or unplug the optic nerve and muscles from a damaged eye and plug in a new one.

In a related idea, have them born with a biological computer in their brains. It won't be as good as a non-fleshy computer, but it will allow the creature's brain to from birth grow and learn and shape itself to work with computer-style functions. Eventually the biocomputer can be replaced with a hardware version, which the brain will be able to take greater advantage of because it's developed that way from the beginning.

[fgalkin]

If even Zor immediately sees it as a terrible idea, why didn't it occur to anyone in the species? Are they all stupid? Then how did they become a spece-faring civiliziation?

Zor points out that it's a stupid idea using historical examples of cultures doing similar things. So yes, a technological species can be that stupid.

How is that comparable with creating another species on purpose? Especially, since he's asking about augmenting humans, so the species in question is either humans themselves, or are familiar with them.

They get the benefit of hindsight and they STILL do it. That's just plain retarded.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Shroom Man 777]

Hrm... if space-travel isn't that fast, or if the setting is very wide, then maybe you could have "crusade fleets" of military forces go on waging interstellar wars for decades/centuries and during that time, they constantly upgrade themselves so they become no longer human and maybe at some point in time, they return to their home world and seeing the puny humans, consider it no different from the other alien untermenschen worlds they were conquering?

It could be possible if there was nothing stopping the military from turning themselves into posthuman ubermenschen.

[rhoenix]

If even Zor immediately sees it as a terrible idea, why didn't it occur to anyone in the species? Are they all stupid? Then how did they become a spece-faring civiliziation?

I'll give as much background as I can without giving away my ideas here.

This species most certainly did not start out as stupid, as they are descendants of humans on Earth that eventually became a separate species. Over the next few hundred to thousand years, they went from golden age to decline, and that decline was accelerated by poor decision making.

Now, does anyone else have any suggestions or ideas directly related to the OP, which is: What ideas would be possible as far as modifications go for the two objectives given?

[rhoenix]

Hrm... if space-travel isn't that fast, or if the setting is very wide, then maybe you could have "crusade fleets" of military forces go on waging interstellar wars for decades/centuries and during that time, they constantly upgrade themselves so they become no longer human and maybe at some point in time, they return to their home world and seeing the puny humans, consider it no different from the other alien untermenschen worlds they were conquering?

It could be possible if there was nothing stopping the military from turning themselves into posthuman ubermenschen.

That is an excellent idea, and thank you for it - unfortunately, this is going to be purely a political decision in-universe, rather than a military one.

[Broomstick]

(high-G / Low-G / underwater / extreme temperatures / different atmospheres)

High-G needs needs stronger bones, a tougher circulatory system to deal with the increased amount of energy required for pumping.

You can also make the engineered people shorter for high-G, which will shorten the vertical distance the heart has to pump blood. I suppose you might also add in additional hearts. Maybe.

Extreme Temperatures.... you are fucked. There isn't alot we can do to adapt to temperature with genetic engineering.

Depends on how you define extreme. Thicker sub-cutaneous fat (a.k.a. "blubber") might work for colder temperatures than humans currently tolerate without significant gear but there are limits to that. Some arctic/antarctic fish have what is essentially anti-freeze in their body fluids, but I'm not sure if that could be engineered into humans.

Different atmosphere... depends on the atmosphere. Non-reactive gases are fine.

You might be able to adapt humans to lower or higher pressures, or to higher concentrations of CO2, but there are still limits because people need oxygen and some gasses are just plain toxic.

[Samuel]

You can also make the engineered people shorter for high-G, which will shorten the vertical distance the heart has to pump blood. I suppose you might also add in additional hearts. Maybe.

Where would you put it? Could you make it so that the blood vessels had mini-pumps along the way?

Depends on how you define extreme. Thicker sub-cutaneous fat (a.k.a. "blubber") might work for colder temperatures than humans currently tolerate without significant gear but there are limits to that. Some arctic/antarctic fish have what is essentially anti-freeze in their body fluids, but I'm not sure if that could be engineered into humans.

I think a bigger problem would be super cold air messing up your lungs.

[Broomstick]

You can also make the engineered people shorter for high-G, which will shorten the vertical distance the heart has to pump blood. I suppose you might also add in additional hearts. Maybe.

Where would you put it? Could you make it so that the blood vessels had mini-pumps along the way?

That's a possible solution. There have been people born with more than one heart, although it is extremely rare.

You might put an auxiliary heart lower down in the torso, along the descending aorta perhaps - there would be issues with vulnerability to blows but putting it low in the pelvis might work. Auxiliary pumps in the carotid arteries might help keep blood going to the brain. It's a bit of a design problem, definitely.

Depends on how you define extreme. Thicker sub-cutaneous fat (a.k.a. "blubber") might work for colder temperatures than humans currently tolerate without significant gear but there are limits to that. Some arctic/antarctic fish have what is essentially anti-freeze in their body fluids, but I'm not sure if that could be engineered into humans.

I think a bigger problem would be super cold air messing up your lungs.

Again, define "super cold". Currently, the champion cold-temperature survival critters are Emperor Penguins - the males over-winter in the antarctic winter while incubating eggs, enduring temps down around -45 C and winds in the 140 kph range for two months at a time with no shelter other than standing downwind of other penguins. I'm pretty sure they aren't holding their breath the whole time. A lot of cold-weather species at both poles have adaptations to warm incoming air to prevent damage from super cold air.

[Shroom Man 777]

Your humanoids could secrete slimy oily sweat to protect them from atrocious heat.

Your zero-G space humanoids could have really efficient metabolisms that allow them to slow down their oxygen consumption to save O2 in the space station habitats. They'd move slow in the zero-gravity, ponderous but strangely graceful, since their motions would be done in a way as to not waste any excess energy or oxygen whenever they do anything. Their respiration rates could be very low too. Imagine a group of folk, just drifting around in a perpetual state of relaxation in a space can.

Same could apply for underwater folks too.