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As seen in the movie, James T. Kirk did what no other cadet had done.
The question is what did he do? Did he cheat, did he win, did he miss the point of the test entirely? Its a psychology test, the problem is, who can guess what psychology of the 23rd century looks like?

It's been popping up in other threads so why not gather opinion data.

Also feel tree to post what OTHER responses to the kobiyashi maru were and what you think it demosntrates about the character (Kind of wonder what Data did, what mackenzie Calhoun did etc. Janeway probably just torpedoed the maru from a distance.

As seen in the movie? A simple fail, not because "everyone fails", but because he didn't complete the test as per the conditions set by the program. However, he did not do it in a way that would even allow him to pass. It was just a stunt to force the issue.

Oh god not that horseshit again.

Thread derailed!

Stark wrote:Oh god not that horseshit again.

Thread derailed!

Nah fuck it, It wasn't framed as a choice, so he can just vote "other". I put "As seen in the movie" because I wanted to differentiate from the TOS Kirk's KM performance.

Assuming he voted that is...

I always thought that Kirk hacked the simulation in a subtle way, such that when he beat the test, his teachers thought he was exploiting a genuine edge case or bizarre situation that their programming had failed to account for. Obviously the new movie blows that out of the water, with Kirk winning in a completely nonplausible way and just generally being an asshole. I give the writers of the new movie a D, for completely avoidable FAIL.

Only a general-fail due to his lack of subtlety or attempts to hide his actions. If a student stubbornly did a closed-book test with the textbook obviously open on their desk, I can imagine many instructors tearing their test up and dropping it in the trash, but I cannot think of many in my experience who would have written said student up for cheating.

Starglider wrote:I always thought that Kirk hacked the simulation in a subtle way, such that when he beat the test, his teachers thought he was exploiting a genuine edge case or bizarre situation that their programming had failed to account for. Obviously the new movie blows that out of the water, with Kirk winning in a completely nonplausible way and just generally being an asshole. I give the writers of the new movie a D, for completely avoidable FAIL.

That was what I thought after seeing ST II when i was younger, when i was older and I read the kobiyashi Maru book at first I didn't like ho overtly the simulation played out
Spoiler Not as subtle as I envisioned, but I suppose it would be detrimental to the character's honesty by having him try to get away with cheating. Kirk cheats but he also makes it clear to everyone he cheats in bizarre form ofegotistic challenge, which wasa reflected in the movie but way overdone.

"I'm James T Kirk bitches, I don't LOSE."

Punative action, but for sabotaging Academy property more than the cheat.

Fail, because he didn't legitimately beat the scenario, or no grade, since legitimately beating it is supposed to be impossible, he'd already taken it, and he acted completely outside the parameters of the scenario.

I would not fail him from the Academy or expel him, however, as he shows some potential and had already taken the test twice legitimately.

Actually I'd give him a pass for a few reasons.
First he did try twice to pass the scenario as it was designed.
In the third try he redefined the scenario in such a way as to win.
Star Fleet needs more captians who refuse to admit a situation is hopeless. They're supposed to be explorers and when encountering new situations you might at first think there is no way through, the people who then give up are forgotten but those who perserve become legends.

I agree.

Even though he was a total dick during the scenario, he still managed to find a way to beat it, and if Kirk managed to beat a similar scenario in real life by managing to send a virus or code to the enemy ships, lowering their shields so that he could destroy them, would he be accused of cheating then.

Yeah, except he found a way to beat it by altering the code of the scenario and turning on god mode. Something you can't exactly do in the field.

The test was retarded, but his cheating was childish and, as Stark said so many times before and no one seems to remember, an example of a crippling character flaw more than it was of any particular beneficial trait.

His entire hearing was justified. How many people in any particular military organization today would get away with breaking into a restricted area, tampering with academy computers, then wasting simulator and instructor time by acting like a flippant ass? Oh, sure, the point of the test was completely stupid, but he still committed at least a few misdemeanors in his attempt to game the system.

Darth Praxis, really? That's your defense? "Well, if he magicked the enemy's shields away, who would accuse him of cheating then?" is stupid. For one the situations are totally different and for two he wouldn't be breaking into places he's not legally allowed.

Erik von Nein wrote:The test was retarded, but his cheating was childish and, as Stark said so many times before and no one seems to remember, an example of a crippling character flaw more than it was of any particular beneficial trait.

Out of universe, I'm sure the writers didn't intend for him to come off as outright childish as opposed to roguish, but their own obliviousness wrote up a more immature Kirk that might be consistent with the adolescent troublemaker than they had expected. If this is picked up on and expanded in the next film, that might make it a bit more consistent, but I guarantee you the writers see nothing that impugns Kirk's character in his conduct.

I voted other. I think a combination of A (Commendation), D (Punitive action) and F (No grade, 3rd time) are what would have likely happened. Basically like what we saw in the end of STIV. ("Demotion" to the rank of Captain) I also don't really think there is a gradable answer to the test, but any information that is useful to Starfleet would have been gained after JTK took the test the first time, and possibly the second.

Erik von Nein wrote:
Darth Praxis, really? That's your defense? "Well, if he magicked the enemy's shields away, who would accuse him of cheating then?" is stupid. For one the situations are totally different and for two he wouldn't be breaking into places he's not legally allowed.

Because he didn't break into the ship he got kicked off of, or Nero's ship. It seems fairly certain he wasn't supposed to be either of those places either.

Spare us the nonsensical "Character flaw" bullshit if it was so "Crippling" he would be... CRIPPLED.. Instead of a natural leader who comes out on top all the time. if you don't like his atitude don't wrap it up in more than it is.

I'd think the fact that this was his third time through would speak volumes in itself. I also went A and D. A for being stubborn enough to keep at it 3 times, and D to at the very least find out how he got in there in the first place.

I would have preferred the book version of his test because it was a lot funnier and didn't have him acting like a complete ass. IIRC Scotty was the one who went with the subtle cheat exploiting something that the computer would think was feasible, but was proven to be not possible in real life.

I gave him a "fail" based on his asshat behavior in the new movie. He gets credit for trying the scenario for the third time; that shows a stubborn stick-to-itiveness that's commendable for a potential commander of men, women and aliens, but... Spoiler

My verdict would probably be predicated on the first excerize's outcome.

Though some disciplineary measures would be necessary just to get him to understand command structure a bit better.

To jest: "Ya know what the chain of command is, son? It's the chain I beat you with until you under who's in ruttin' command!"

Themightytom wrote:Because he didn't break into the ship he got kicked off of, or Nero's ship. It seems fairly certain he wasn't supposed to be either of those places either.

What are you talking about? I was talking about him breaking into the simulator's computer and probably the observation room, as well.

Themightytom wrote:Spare us the nonsensical "Character flaw" bullshit if it was so "Crippling" he would be... CRIPPLED.. Instead of a natural leader who comes out on top all the time. if you don't like his atitude don't wrap it up in more than it is.

That's because he was written to come out on top, not because his flaw didn't, you know, cripple him. His original attitude toward not losing would have resulted in him and the Enterprise getting blown up by Nero by charging directly after him. It was only because he got booted to the extremely plot convenient planet that he succeeded.

The way I look at it, the test was designed to gauge how he would react to a no-win scenario. He'd already not-won twice, and they had collected whatever data they needed for his profile. Everyone 'fails' the KM, since everybody HAS to lose, it doesn't seem to me like its a test that can have a wrong answer unless they cry and hide under their chair.

What Kirk did was show them was when faced with a seemingly unwinnable situation, he'd try as hard and asa long as he could and do whatever it took to win.

I'd reprimand him for breaking/stealing anything that had to be done, but I'd probably just stick a 'formal reprimand' in his file.

Taken with his other failures, this test represents an interesting perspective on Kirk's psychology. He tries it twice, by the rules, figures out that you can't win by playing by the rules and takes this as enough of an insult to give us the performance we see in the movie. Its interesting that he takes the test so personally, and that when confronted with something he cannot win, he breaks it so that he can. It's not something that would work in the field, but that's not the point of the test.

On the other hand, we have to keep discipline since this is a military academy. Take action, but keep it a slap on the wrist.

If everyone fails the test, then what's the matter? The grade Kirk get in his previous failed attempts would be no different from the grade everyone else got - because they all got killed in the Koyabashi Maru anyway.

His first and second no-cheating attempts would be graded - and since he failed both times, he gets the same grade (as everyone else got!). His third cheating attempt gets him some penalties, whatever penalties Starfleet Academy has for cheating anyway. He gets Space Detention.

My take on it;

He tried the test the first time, and "failed". How he did is unknown. For all we know, he could have taken down half of the Klingon Battlecruisers.

He tried the test a second time, and "failed". Again, how he did is unknown.

Realising he's in a no-win scenario, or that the test itself is a cheat. (It's programmed to kill the federation shop, regardless), he decided to completely 180 degree turn it.


You know what? The test is designed to find out how a potiental captain responds to a no-win scenario. They've seen it now, twice. Once where he doesn't know it's no-win, and once when he goes in knowing it' no-win.

They now know, under the requirements that had, how he handles that scenario. And given his performance during the later part of the movie, it's safe to say he handled it well.

They also learn something more and 'new' about him: He's going to do whatever it takes to win, and to hell with restrictions and regulations if need be. Whether or not that's if live are on the line or not, is up for the head-doc's to decide.

Quite frankly, his actions gave them more information then the standard test ever could.

I'd give him the standard results for the test, make a note on his about this, and recommend him for normal advancement with a captain that was good on discipline, or the captain that recruited him.

Starfleet needs captains that can think on their feet, back off and make decisions, and won't let the rule book hold them back.

An the rest of the movie proved it.

Erik von Nein wrote: What are you talking about? I was talking about him breaking into the simulator's computer and probably the observation room, as well.

In all 3 situations he went where he was prhibited from going. Simulators computer, Enterprise under Spock's command and Nero's ship. You are suggesting he should only ever go where he is allowed to go in a training situation, I am pointing out if the training was the model and he had learned not to go where he wasn't supposed to, he would be stuck on an ice planet, OR he wouldn't ever have left SF academy, as Bones smuggled him onto the Enterprise in the first place (Though pike didn't mind)

Themightytom wrote:Spare us the nonsensical "Character flaw" bullshit if it was so "Crippling" he would be... CRIPPLED.. Instead of a natural leader who comes out on top all the time. if you don't like his atitude don't wrap it up in more than it is.

That's because he was written to come out on top, not because his flaw didn't, you know, cripple him. His original attitude toward not losing would have resulted in him and the Enterprise getting blown up by Nero by charging directly after him. It was only because he got booted to the extremely plot convenient planet that he succeeded.

When you write a fanfic you can depict Kirk failing spectacularly, but that is not how it happened in the movie. In universe there is no evidence that Kirk's character flaw is "crippling". The same writers who wrote Kirk's personality wrote the situations he responds to, you can't START with a fictional character, forecast the likely result in the real world, and then treat the character in universe as though it would happen in universe, you just installed a revolving door in the fourth wall.

His original atitude in not accepting failure and seeking to redefine situations resulted in him not giving hup when Spock shot him out off the enterprise in an escape pod (Perhaps a somewhat ironic homage to what Kirk did to him in ST II?), Kirk returned to the Enterprise and redefined the situation, instead of using a computer program, he used intel on Spock's psyche to manipulate the situation but the characteristics were all there.

You say there is no "God mode" for Kirk when he goes out in the field, but apparently there WAS a future Spock to provide all the information Kirk needed, and a Scotty who could make it happen.

I think you object fundamentally to the Star trek universe. i can understand that. It regularly awards rediculous ideas and behavior with success.

erik_t wrote:Only a general-fail due to his lack of subtlety or attempts to hide his actions. If a student stubbornly did a closed-book test with the textbook obviously open on their desk, I can imagine many instructors tearing their test up and dropping it in the trash, but I cannot think of many in my experience who would have written said student up for cheating.

Are you kidding? At my university, a student who behaved that way would have been expelled. They made their zero-tolerance cheating rule very clear to us on the first day.

Solauren wrote:My take on it;

He tried the test the first time, and "failed". How he did is unknown. For all we know, he could have taken down half of the Klingon Battlecruisers.

He tried the test a second time, and "failed". Again, how he did is unknown.

Realising he's in a no-win scenario, or that the test itself is a cheat. (It's programmed to kill the federation shop, regardless), he decided to completely 180 degree turn it.

The idea that the test is a "cheat" is stupid; it implies that there's some kind of fair competition rule between the student and the faculty.

You know what? The test is designed to find out how a potiental captain responds to a no-win scenario. They've seen it now, twice. Once where he doesn't know it's no-win, and once when he goes in knowing it' no-win.

After the third time, they found out that he's a sore loser with attitude problems who stubbornly refuses to accept the possibility that some situations may be tactically hopeless, even though that does happen in real-life. Oh wait, I guess that means real-life "cheats" too, so it's not fair and he should appeal it to God.

They now know, under the requirements that had, how he handles that scenario. And given his performance during the later part of the movie, it's safe to say he handled it well.

They also learn something more and 'new' about him: He's going to do whatever it takes to win, and to hell with restrictions and regulations if need be. Whether or not that's if live are on the line or not, is up for the head-doc's to decide.

Quite frankly, his actions gave them more information then the standard test ever could.

I'd give him the standard results for the test, make a note on his about this, and recommend him for normal advancement with a captain that was good on discipline, or the captain that recruited him.

Starfleet needs captains that can think on their feet, back off and make decisions, and won't let the rule book hold them back.

An the rest of the movie proved it.

What a load of apologist horseshit.