"Invisible Berlin Wall" Between Canada And US

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"Invisible Berlin Wall" Between Canada And US

Post by FSTargetDrone »

CBC:
Last Updated: Sunday, May 31, 2009 | 2:17 PM ET

New U.S. rules on cross-border travel that take effect Monday represent a "heightened militarization" that will hurt the traditionally close relationship between border communities, the mayor of Sarnia, Ont., said Sunday.

"That longest and friendliest border in the world is now an invisible Berlin Wall," Mike Bradley told CBC News, responding to the new requirement that travellers carry a secure document to enter the U.S. by land. It is the latest in a series of security measures implemented since the terror attacks on New York and Washington D.C. on Sept. 11, 2001.

The border city mayor predicted a "dramatic" decrease in traffic flowing between the two countries — that Americans won't spend the money on documents now needed for a single-day trip.

Bradley said border security has already been significantly beefed up.

"[There are] helicopters by the hour, heightened security. The Americans increased spending by $2 billion last year alone just to patrol the border.

"We now have huge surveillance cameras going in across from Sarnia and all the way down the St. Clair River to Windsor, that will keep track of Canadians on the Canadian side of the border," he said.

Starting at 12:01 a.m. Monday, both Canadian and U.S. citizens will need a passport or equivalent new identification for border crossings.

The Western Hemisphere Travel Initiative, an anti-terrorism policy passed by Congress in 2004, requires travellers 16 and older who are entering the United States from Canada by land or sea to carry one of the following:

* Passport.
* NEXUS card.
* Free and Secure Trade (FAST) card.
* Enhanced driver's licence (EDL) or an enhanced identification card (EIC) from a province where a U.S.-approved EDL/EIC program has been implemented.
* Secure Certificate of Indian Status (when this certificate is available and approved by the United States).

Canadian citizens 18 years of age or under who are travelling with a school or other organized group, under adult supervision with parental/guardian consent, may present proof of Canadian citizenship alone.

Border towns like Niagara Falls, Ont., are getting ready for what's normally a busy tourist season. But it seems some Americans feel the steep price of coming to Canada isn't worth it.

"We don't have a passport and it's like $100 to get one, as I understand, and so we decided to go for one last time," said a man from the U.S. who was visiting Niagara Falls, Ont., on Saturday.

Niagara Falls Tourism chairman Wayne Thomson, who promotes business on the Canadian side, worries the price of passports may be too much, especially for American day trippers.

Few Americans have passports

"The concern is over people who may not have the financial resources and don't have passports but would like to slip across the border and go to Marineland for the day with their family and go back at night," he said.

It's estimated 41 per cent of Canadians have a passport, but only about 20 per cent of Americans have one.

The Anchor Bar in Buffalo, N.Y., has always been a favourite hangout for locals and Canadians. Ivano Toscani, its host and executive chef, is hoping the Canadians will still show up after the border rules go into effect.

"Being so close to Canada, I know that we do have a lot of Canadian friends coming over here all the time, especially when we have a football game going on," he said.

Brief grace period

Americans returning home will also have to present one of the newly required documents proving their identification and citizenship. However, Chief Ron Smith of U.S. Customs and Border Protection in Detroit said his department plans to give unaware travellers a break for an unspecified period.

Smith told the Observer newspaper in Sarnia, Ont., that people who don’t have the right documents will be given a written notice explaining the new rules and sent on their way.

An official with the U.S. Border Protection agency told CBC News its border guards will be lenient with people who forget their passports at first, but "not for long."

U.S. Customs and Border Protection Acting Commissioner Jayson P. Ahern is quoted on the agency's website saying that agents "will be practical and flexible in implementing [the new rules] using the same informed compliance approach that proved successful during other major changes at our borders over the last two years."
I wonder which side is West Berlin and which is East? :P

In all seriousness, I am one of the 80% of people in the US who do not have a passport. I traveled to both Mexico and Canada in the early 90s, but I wasn't yet 18 at the time. If I was planning to travel to either country ( or overseas, for that matter, presumably I would be able to come up with the money to get a passport.

Curiously, another story (from Friday) on the same page as the one linked above says that "just over 54 per cent" of Canadians have a passport, as opposed to the story here which says "41 per cent" have passports.

In any case, do any of you travel with any sort of regularity between Canada/US and/or Mexico/US? Will the new regulations change that for you?

And who here (especially those of you outside of North America) possesses or doesn't possess a passport?
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Re: "Invisible Berlin Wall" Between Canada And US

Post by Sea Skimmer »

FSTargetDrone wrote: Curiously, another story (from Friday) on the same page as the one linked above says that "just over 54 per cent" of Canadians have a passport, as opposed to the story here which says "41 per cent" have passports.
That might be because the 41% is counting children under 16 who still don't need a passport to go to the US as not having one, and the 54% is not. No idea on the demographics of Canada offhand and if 13% are under 16.
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Re: "Invisible Berlin Wall" Between Canada And US

Post by Teebs »

FSTargetDrone wrote:And who here (especially those of you outside of North America) possesses or doesn't possess a passport?
From Britain, and I don't think I know a single person who doesn't have a passport, although obviously I can't be sure.
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Re: "Invisible Berlin Wall" Between Canada And US

Post by Thanas »

Most european countries issue a mandatory passport for their citizens iirc.
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Re: "Invisible Berlin Wall" Between Canada And US

Post by Broomstick »

I grew up only a few kilometers from the US/Canadian border in south eastern Michigan and when I was a kid we traveled back and forth frequently. My sister lives in Buffalo, New York, another border town, and she and her family did likewise. Used to go to Niagara Falls in Canada whenever I visited her, as it's a short ride by car. We used to cut through Canada traveling between Detroit and Buffalo all the time. Never needed a passport, for the most part we never had one.

I did get one to travel to Europe in the early 1980's, but I let it expire as, living in the US, I didn't really need it. I still have it, but it's over 25 years old now. My Other Half had a passport when he lived and worked in the UK, but that was over 20 years ago now and his, too, is expired. Paying the renewal fee seemed an unnecessary expense at the time, as we were not planning on traveling beyond the US or Canada for the foreseeable future.

Renewing them now, for both of us, would be burden - the same amount of money that feeds us for two weeks, about 1/3 of our monthly rent, at a time when our income is unsteady.

When I go visit my father and sister we'll be driving just through the States. I don't see visiting Canada until my income improves a lot, I just can't justify spending the bucks right now. No more visits to Niagara Falls for me, I guess.
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Re: "Invisible Berlin Wall" Between Canada And US

Post by The Spartan »

I actually do have my passport. I got it about a year ago when I was tentatively planning a trip to Europe that ended up falling through.

Still, I figured it'd be a good idea to have it since I have family in Scotland and may want to visit; it's easier to have it than to be possibly sweating getting it in time for a trip.
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Re: "Invisible Berlin Wall" Between Canada And US

Post by Solauren »

Dear United States of America:

HAHAHAHAHA

Way to go, you just solved Canada's 'cross border' shopping problem (minus online shopping, which the Canadian government is planning on taxing eventually anyway)

Way to cut out lots of money to your economy. The local merchants in Canada Thank You.

- Signed
Canadian with more brains then your collective border management agencies.


....

Now seriously, most of the people I know go to the US for vacations or shopping trips. No one wants to spend an extra $200 (is that how much a passport costs? I don't remember) for a shopping trip designed to save money, or on a vacation.

They just kicked the US tourism industry in the groin.
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Re: "Invisible Berlin Wall" Between Canada And US

Post by Tsyroc »

I recently saw an advertisement for a border crossing card which I'm guessing is an enhanced version of the local driver's license.

Apparently you can use a passport or a "high tech" driver's license to cross back and forth between the US & Mexico and the US & Canada.

Still seems pretty retarded to me.
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Re: "Invisible Berlin Wall" Between Canada And US

Post by Broomstick »

Yes, there's an "enhanced driver's license". If I had frequent business in Canada I'd get that or a passport. If I had such business.

The thing is, this is going to kill casual day-tourism cross-border. That's not good even in boom times, in this economy it's stupid. Canada is no threat to the US, this is just politicians exerting control for its own sake.
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Re: "Invisible Berlin Wall" Between Canada And US

Post by Enigma »

It is only $45 for a passport card here in the U.S. Mind you it is good for only 5 years but still it is cheaper than an actual passport. So instead of spending $200 for two passports, you'd spend $90 for two passport cards.
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Re: "Invisible Berlin Wall" Between Canada And US

Post by Darth Wong »

The thing is, the hysterical right-wing fearmongers would fall upon any politician who revokes these restrictions like a pack of rabid hyenas, so it won't go away, even if it costs billions in trade.
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Re: "Invisible Berlin Wall" Between Canada And US

Post by General Zod »

I thought passports were already a requirement to go to Canada as of a year or so ago? Didn't they tighten travel restrictions due to Bush administration stupidity regarding border security already?
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Re: "Invisible Berlin Wall" Between Canada And US

Post by Solauren »

Enigma wrote:It is only $45 for a passport card here in the U.S. Mind you it is good for only 5 years but still it is cheaper than an actual passport. So instead of spending $200 for two passports, you'd spend $90 for two passport cards.
According to Passport Canada

It's a minimum of $87 for a passport for an adult (anyone over 16), and roughly 1/3 that for a kid (37 if over 3, 22 if under).

Plus, the photograph has to be done by a commerical photographer.

Plus, if you want it quickly, there are fees per passport. Processing times are roughly 2 - 4 weeks otherwise.

That really, really, really is going to cut into casual 'let's go tothe US' visits, and add a layer to vacations most people are not going to want to bother with.
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Re: "Invisible Berlin Wall" Between Canada And US

Post by General Zod »

Solauren wrote: Plus, the photograph has to be done by a commerical photographer.
I don't see why this is a problem. I can go to Rite Aid or Kinko's and get a set of passport photos for $10 or so.
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Re: "Invisible Berlin Wall" Between Canada And US

Post by Broomstick »

Enigma wrote:It is only $45 for a passport card here in the U.S. Mind you it is good for only 5 years but still it is cheaper than an actual passport. So instead of spending $200 for two passports, you'd spend $90 for two passport cards.
Yeah, because $90 is inconsequential to our budget.... :roll: I'm not sure you understand just how tight money is at the Broomstick household. Without a damn good reason to cross the border, beyond just a day-trip lark, it's too damn expensive. When going to Niagara or Windsor only cost a dime to a dollar for the bridge crossing I might make the trip and drop $25 on food and cheap entertainment. Now, I'm not doing it period. Repeat for thousands of other people. You don't think that will impact business along the border? Not to mention all the "passing through" business - it used to be standard practice for people to cut through Ontario when traveling from Michigan to points east and vice versa, resulting in Americans spending money on food and lodging through the province, and now that is pretty much at an end, too.

So, any Canadian that wants to laugh go right ahead - nevermind that this will hurt some of your fellow citizens.
General Zod wrote:I thought passports were already a requirement to go to Canada as of a year or so ago? Didn't they tighten travel restrictions due to Bush administration stupidity regarding border security already?
That was the original deadline - but the idiots who made the rule never considered that there would be a sudden rush in passport applications (betrays their thinking - they seem to have assumed that rather than travel people would just be compliant little pawns and stay home) which created such a backlog that the only thing to do was delay final implementation - or risk a severe backlash.

Hell - the new requirements have created problems at my local post office, where you can apply for a passport, just because so many people in Bumfuck, Indiana have a need/desire to cross an international border that it exceeds the capacity of their system to handle it - apparently designed for just one or two requests a month, at most, it now handles a half a dozen daily. It's not a major crisis, but it does impact waiting times for other services at that branch.
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Re: "Invisible Berlin Wall" Between Canada And US

Post by Darth Wong »

Solauren wrote:Dear United States of America:

HAHAHAHAHA

Way to go, you just solved Canada's 'cross border' shopping problem (minus online shopping, which the Canadian government is planning on taxing eventually anyway)

Way to cut out lots of money to your economy. The local merchants in Canada Thank You.

- Signed
Canadian with more brains then your collective border management agencies.


....

Now seriously, most of the people I know go to the US for vacations or shopping trips. No one wants to spend an extra $200 (is that how much a passport costs? I don't remember) for a shopping trip designed to save money, or on a vacation.

They just kicked the US tourism industry in the groin.
Don't be stupid. Canadians are far more likely to have passports than Americans, so it will have more impact on Americans visiting Canada than Canadians visiting America.
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Re: "Invisible Berlin Wall" Between Canada And US

Post by erik_t »

Broomstick wrote:
Enigma wrote:It is only $45 for a passport card here in the U.S. Mind you it is good for only 5 years but still it is cheaper than an actual passport. So instead of spending $200 for two passports, you'd spend $90 for two passport cards.
Yeah, because $90 is inconsequential to our budget.... :roll: I'm not sure you understand just how tight money is at the Broomstick household. Without a damn good reason to cross the border, beyond just a day-trip lark, it's too damn expensive. When going to Niagara or Windsor only cost a dime to a dollar for the bridge crossing I might make the trip and drop $25 on food and cheap entertainment. Now, I'm not doing it period. Repeat for thousands of other people. You don't think that will impact business along the border? Not to mention all the "passing through" business - it used to be standard practice for people to cut through Ontario when traveling from Michigan to points east and vice versa, resulting in Americans spending money on food and lodging through the province, and now that is pretty much at an end, too.
If you can't afford ninety dollars on something that will last for ten years, you ought not be dropping $25 for a weekend of entertainment, no matter what the damned bridge costs.

I will undoubtedly be subjected to woe-is-me tirades from half a dozen people who have been bent over by the economy, but that does not change the underlying reality.
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Re: "Invisible Berlin Wall" Between Canada And US

Post by RogueIce »

Why don't they just make those "enhanced" drivers licenses into the new standard if that's good enough to cross the borders? Sure it sucks for those who already have one, but eventually you need to renew and then you'll get one anyway. Or just get a new DL if you feel like spending your day at the DMV...

And for the "but I don't drive!" crowd, I'm sure they could probably made an "enhanced state ID card" as well, which from what I've seen are basically a drivers license that says NOT A DRIVERS LICENSE on it anyway.

Or is this one of those things where they want to make money, like I'm almost convinced the application of Florida's "fingerprint to work at schools" law was: sure I can see the principle, but they make police officers spend $85 to do this, even though they've been through a much tougher background check already (including fingerprints), and it's highly unlikey their department would not notice if they were arrested for a sex crime. :arrow:
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Re: "Invisible Berlin Wall" Between Canada And US

Post by Broomstick »

erik_t wrote:If you can't afford ninety dollars on something that will last for ten years, you ought not be dropping $25 for a weekend of entertainment, no matter what the damned bridge costs.
It used to be that I would (depending on crossing fees) be able to make at least 90 to 900 trips into Canada over the course of 10 years for the price of a passport/enhanced driver's license. Now, to make even one trip costs $100. You don't see an issue with this? Even if I had a month where I could afford to drop $90 I wouldn't, because there are so many other things I can use $90 for other than the admission fee to get back into my own country which is really what this is - it's not Canada requiring this, it's the United States. I don't need the passport to get Canada, I need to it get back home.

As for the "if you can't afford $90 you shouldn't spend $25" - fuck you. Sorry if I have an occasional impulse to make my life more than just endless work and bare survival. Yeah, about once every 4-5 months we "splurge" outrageously :roll: by spending $25 or $30 bucks on a movie or a dinner. So... maybe $50-60 in an entire year. Having to spent an additional $90 on top of that just makes it undoable. All this does is guarantee that that money will only be spent within the US borders instead of leaving open the option of going to Windsor or Fort Erie when I happen to be in the neighborhood.

Used to be I could go to Canada with only slightly more trouble than I travel from Indiana to Chicago. Now... Canada might as well be Tokyo.
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Re: "Invisible Berlin Wall" Between Canada And US

Post by General Zod »

RogueIce wrote:Why don't they just make those "enhanced" drivers licenses into the new standard if that's good enough to cross the borders? Sure it sucks for those who already have one, but eventually you need to renew and then you'll get one anyway. Or just get a new DL if you feel like spending your day at the DMV...

And for the "but I don't drive!" crowd, I'm sure they could probably made an "enhanced state ID card" as well, which from what I've seen are basically a drivers license that says NOT A DRIVERS LICENSE on it anyway.
Are you kidding? Anything that's seen as a way of "giving the government more personal information" is automatically viewed as evil already, and the right-wing tards will fight it tooth and nail. Making EDLs a standard would get massive resistance.
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Re: "Invisible Berlin Wall" Between Canada And US

Post by Broomstick »

RogueIce wrote:Why don't they just make those "enhanced" drivers licenses into the new standard if that's good enough to cross the borders?
Because people who live in Kansas or Iowa aren't going to want to pay the extra cost of it as a routine matter. The majority of Americans don't need a passport because they don't cross international borders. Forcing people to pay extra for "enhancements" they'll never use would be bad for politicians wanting re-election.

It would also take at least 5 years for the transition to be complete.
And for the "but I don't drive!" crowd, I'm sure they could probably made an "enhanced state ID card" as well, which from what I've seen are basically a drivers license that says NOT A DRIVERS LICENSE on it anyway.
I'm pretty sure that was already taken into account.
Or is this one of those things where they want to make money
I'm sure that's a factor, too.
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Re: "Invisible Berlin Wall" Between Canada And US

Post by Themightytom »

is there anything in Canada I am missing? I ask in all seriousness because I never think of Canada as a "Sweet vacation spot!" I am from New hampshire, and two third of the eyar are winter, so when I want to go somewhere I go SOUTH.

I've been to Montreal a few times and it was an even MORE chilly version of Portland, the only draw was I was under 21. In the US the cities have characteristics that draw you, Go to Boston MA if you like the Red Sox, Fanneil Hall (Sp?) or the boston Aquarium, go to New York if you want to see Time Square, the Statue of liberty or the bronx Zoo.

The camping and hiking seems to be pretty much what I would find in NH ME or VT and I doubt i will be done hiking white mountains and kayaking lakes in my life time.

Economically, I live in the cheapest state to by things in the US since we don't have a sales tax, my insurance covers everything under the sun and I don't need prescription drugs...

In terms of cultural exploration is it that different from northern NH VT or Maine? French Canadians everywhere maple syrup flows like water?

Because I actually DO have a passport and wouldn't be against a trip to canada if I had any idea where to go...

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Re: "Invisible Berlin Wall" Between Canada And US

Post by erik_t »

Broomstick wrote:
As for the "if you can't afford $90 you shouldn't spend $25" - fuck you. Sorry if I have an occasional impulse to make my life more than just endless work and bare survival. Yeah, about once every 4-5 months we "splurge" outrageously :roll: by spending $25 or $30 bucks on a movie or a dinner. So... maybe $50-60 in an entire year. Having to spent an additional $90 on top of that just makes it undoable. All this does is guarantee that that money will only be spent within the US borders instead of leaving open the option of going to Windsor or Fort Erie when I happen to be in the neighborhood.
I assume you've made those 9800 posts from a public library internet connection, then.
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Re: "Invisible Berlin Wall" Between Canada And US

Post by Darth Wong »

Themightytom wrote:is there anything in Canada I am missing? I ask in all seriousness because I never think of Canada as a "Sweet vacation spot!" I am from New hampshire, and two third of the eyar are winter, so when I want to go somewhere I go SOUTH.

I've been to Montreal a few times and it was an even MORE chilly version of Portland, the only draw was I was under 21. In the US the cities have characteristics that draw you, Go to Boston MA if you like the Red Sox, Fanneil Hall (Sp?) or the boston Aquarium, go to New York if you want to see Time Square, the Statue of liberty or the bronx Zoo.

The camping and hiking seems to be pretty much what I would find in NH ME or VT and I doubt i will be done hiking white mountains and kayaking lakes in my life time.

Economically, I live in the cheapest state to by things in the US since we don't have a sales tax, my insurance covers everything under the sun and I don't need prescription drugs...

In terms of cultural exploration is it that different from northern NH VT or Maine? French Canadians everywhere maple syrup flows like water?

Because I actually DO have a passport and wouldn't be against a trip to canada if I had any idea where to go...
Well really, if you're into nature then one could argue that no one should ever bother traveling anywhere, because it's true; you can wander around a forest in Pennsylvania and it won't look much different from a forest in Ontario. I just like traveling because I like to take trips to new places, not because I expect to see something dramatically different. I mean really, you could use this argument of yours to justify never leaving a 100 mile radius of your home.

When you go places in North America, the culture changes a bit, but you seem to be looking for some kind of huge alien experience, and that's a bit of an unrealistic expectation no matter where you go, unless you go really far away, like Turkey. I personally just like to see different places.

For example, I'd like to take another trip to Central Park in NYC. Is it really so hugely different from Centre Island Park in Toronto? Not really, it's just that I've been to Centre Island Park many times. But yeah, if you want to be picky about it, sure: both places have flowers, and water, and trees, and birds ... I guess there's no point going, right?
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Re: "Invisible Berlin Wall" Between Canada And US

Post by Themightytom »

erik_t wrote:
Broomstick wrote:
As for the "if you can't afford $90 you shouldn't spend $25" - fuck you. Sorry if I have an occasional impulse to make my life more than just endless work and bare survival. Yeah, about once every 4-5 months we "splurge" outrageously :roll: by spending $25 or $30 bucks on a movie or a dinner. So... maybe $50-60 in an entire year. Having to spent an additional $90 on top of that just makes it undoable. All this does is guarantee that that money will only be spent within the US borders instead of leaving open the option of going to Windsor or Fort Erie when I happen to be in the neighborhood.
I assume you've made those 9800 posts from a public library internet connection, then.
Thats kind of a silly assumption, what is the cost benefit ratio of broomstick's internet access? does it come as a prepackaged phone/TV bundle that would equal the cost of a phone line itself? Does she use it for a home bsuiness or to efficiently manage her finances or purchase things at discount through internet based direct marketing?

If she was using internet access ONLY to post on this site that might be a bit much, but depending on the cost of her internet, it may not equal the cost of getting a passport to go to Canada and the benefit may not be there.

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