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Just something that hit me while mentioning Pon Farr in an MSN discussion with Shroom.

Vulcan's population just suffered a massive nosedive following Nero destroying Vulcan. If I recall the film correctly, the several thousand Vulcans who were off-world are all that's left of Vulcan population. I'd imagine that trying to raise the population would be a priority, and a seven-year mating cycle doesn't do much good in that regard.

So, my question is, was Pon Farr a purely biological need for Vulcans? Or can it be circumvented for a more human-like, in-season-most-of-the-time mating cycle?

Whatever the answer is, I'm sure we can all say with certainty that good old Spock Prime will be having one hell of a time!

Ten women for every man! Precious bodily fluids! Doctor Spocklove!

So, my question is, was Pon Farr a purely biological need for Vulcans? Or can it be circumvented for a more human-like, in-season-most-of-the-time mating cycle?

It was never explicitly mentioned the Vulcans couldn't mate and reproduced outside of Pon Farr, just that they had to mate then and usually produced offspring only during that period. Wether that is because they have no sex drive outside of it or because they are infertile inbetween Pon Farrs is unknown.

If Pon Farr isn't required to reproduce, they can start making babies right away. If it is... as long as Pon Farr is hormonal there's always fertility treatments and artificial insemination.

Pon-farr is only the one time when the mating drive outweighs all other drives, not the only time Vulcans can ever mate. Can we please have an end to this stupid brainbug now?

As for the Vulcans rebuilding their population, well, with the proper breeding techniques and a ratio of, say, ten females to each male...

Patrick Degan wrote:As for the Vulcans rebuilding their population, well, with the proper breeding techniques and a ratio of, say, ten females to each male...

Large scale use of (ex-vivo) cloning would be better; more logical and it might produce some nice ethical dilemmas (hopefully ending in the 'biotech is evil' bullshit of the old Federation going out the window). In TNG the Mariposa colony survived for 200 years using 22nd century cloning tech and only five donors (in "Up The Long Ladder"). I'm sure it would work quite effectively to rapidly increase the Vulcan population, and doesn't require that all the females be constantly pregnant. I doubt the writers have the clue or the balls to implement this though.

Well if they have problem with cloning then they can always use artifical wombs. And if we can to this with modern technology then the Vulcans should have no problems doing the same.

The artificial womb exists. In Tokyo, researchers have developed a technique called EUFI -- extrauterine fetal incubation. They have taken goat fetuses, threaded catheters through the large vessels in the umbilical cord and supplied the fetuses with oxygenated blood while suspending them in incubators that contain artificial amniotic fluid heated to body temperature

link

edit -Granted it was only a partial success as only a few survived to term and all with physical defects but still hey shows that it is possible.

I'm sure logic would dictate that the remaining Vulcans need to start making babies. Did you really have to ask this question?

Havok wrote:I'm sure logic would dictate that the remaining Vulcans need to start making babies. Did you really have to ask this question?

Logical if the main goal for the Vulcan species is to continue making more Vulcans. That isn't their goal- after all, the Romulans are genetically similar. The Vulcans goal is to continue their ideology.

Samuel wrote:

Havok wrote:I'm sure logic would dictate that the remaining Vulcans need to start making babies. Did you really have to ask this question?

Logical if the main goal for the Vulcan species is to continue making more Vulcans. That isn't their goal- after all, the Romulans are genetically similar. The Vulcans goal is to continue their ideology.

Actually when the Enterprise D ran into the Romulans and was trying to treat the wounded they said that they couldn't synthesis the Romulan blood as they do for the Vulcans as their genetics have drifted apart. Granted its has been a couple of thousand years since the Vulcan/Romulan spilt. Even though is that enough time for difrt to considered them two seperate species.

IIRC, most animals that have a mating season only ovulate during that season, so going by that Vulcan females would probably not be fertile outside of Pon Farr if it has biological roots. Artificial reproduction or artificially stimulating ovulation (and sperm production?) with drugs would probably be the way to go if they want to increase their numbers quickly.

dragon wrote:Actually when the Enterprise D ran into the Romulans and was trying to treat the wounded they said that they couldn't synthesis the Romulan blood as they do for the Vulcans as their genetics have drifted apart. Granted its has been a couple of thousand years since the Vulcan/Romulan spilt. Even though is that enough time for difrt to considered them two seperate species.

Which is pretty absurd - Native Americans should be more different from the rest of humanity than Romulans are from Vulcans (15K year divergence with minimal interbreeding vs. 2K for Vulcans and Romulans with no interbreeding). And I don't see how Romulans are under the kind of heavy selection pressure that would cause significant evolution in a few thousand years. It makes a lot more sense to assume that Romulan just had some rare blood type that's now extinct on Vulcan thanks to interbreeding but was preserved among Romulans due to founder effect. Either that or maybe he had some non-Vulcanoid ancestry - there's tons of precedent for that kind of thing in Trek.

Starglider wrote: Large scale use of (ex-vivo) cloning would be better; more logical and it might produce some nice ethical dilemmas (hopefully ending in the 'biotech is evil' bullshit of the old Federation going out the window). In TNG the Mariposa colony survived for 200 years using 22nd century cloning tech and only five donors (in "Up The Long Ladder"). I'm sure it would work quite effectively to rapidly increase the Vulcan population, and doesn't require that all the females be constantly pregnant. I doubt the writers have the clue or the balls to implement this though.

It's a Dr. Strangelove joke, you Phillistine.

Samuel wrote:

Havok wrote:I'm sure logic would dictate that the remaining Vulcans need to start making babies. Did you really have to ask this question?

Logical if the main goal for the Vulcan species is to continue making more Vulcans. That isn't their goal- after all, the Romulans are genetically similar. The Vulcans goal is to continue their ideology.

Uh... what? Are you saying that the main goal of a species is to NOT avoid extinction? Hello numbnuts... no Vulcans, no Vulcan ideology.

OK, let's look at this logically - we are discussing Vulcans after all.

Assuming a population of 10,000 remaining Vulcans and desire to continue the race the two main problems are reproducing faster than dying, and maintaining genetic diversity.

Some of those 10,000 will either be too old or infertile for some reason or another. If female, such individuals may well be able to carry a genetically unrelated pregnancy to term and may do so for the good of the species. If male, they may choose to adopt Vulcan orphans to raise or otherwise serve the public good, perhaps in dangerous occupations so fertile males would not need to be risked. I would also assume that even the infertile would have genetic samples taken. The fertile could have sperm and eggs stored to use in later generations or to impregnate infertile women who are capable and willing to bear children.

Assuming the fertile period of a Vulcan lifetime corresponds to that of a Human (and why not assume that?) the men should be able to father children well into old age (that is even implied at the end of the new Star Trek movie as Spock Prime is clearly edging into old age). A Human woman's fertility can range from, say, 15 to 45 (roughly - individuals will be fertile earlier or later) or for 30 years. With double the human lifespan a Vulcan female might be capable of bearing children for a 60 year time span. Even if she only reproduces every 7 years, that's 8 children per woman, not counting twins. If she can reproduce outside of pon farr times (which I always thought affected the men much more than the women) then even at a relatively sedate rate of 1 child every, say, 4 years that's 15 children per woman. I assume that they would not reproduce much faster than that as it would be foolish to risk the health of the mother by too-frequent childbirth. So... assuming a 50/50 split of genders after one generation that's... 75,000 new Vulcans, all of who can get to fucking like pointed-eared bunnies to make more Vulcans. They'll rebuild their numbers pretty rapidly at that rate. Even if they only average 8 kids per woman that's still 30,000 in the next generation. The next generation of woman (15,000 individuals) will result, at a rate of 8 kids per, will result in 120,000 new Vulcans. Third generation will be 480,000. Fourth will be 1,920,000. If they can push the average up to 15 kids per women repopulation will happen even faster.

OK, so they'll be able to rebuild their numbers - especially if they're smart and spread out a bit so no one disaster or epidemic can kill all their remaining numbers during the bottleneck. Given that they are part of an interplanetary civilization this should be easy to do.

Next problem is genetic diversity. They are going through a major population bottleneck. It's survivable - there's some evidence humanity when through such a bottleneck about 70,000 years ago. However, as intelligent, technological creatures they should be able to maximize their diversity even if they oppose genetic engineering by the simple expedient of dictating that every pregnancy be sired by a different father. Presumably, Vulcans can use condoms and artificial insemination if they prefer to keep the actual sex between husband and wife, but the Vulcans may be able to tolerate actual intercourse with scientifically chosen mates for the good of the species.

So they should be able to rebuild a healthy race even without genetic engineering. If they do utilize artificial wombs and genetic engineering they can produce even more children with even greater diversity - but remember someone has to RAISE those children, educate them, and nurture them and that will be the limiting factor in that scenario.

An interesting question would be the status of mixbreeds such as Spock - would Vulcans welcome their genes as additional diversity, or see them as diluting the species? I would expect there would be a division amongst the Vulcans in regards to that, as well as the possibility of adding Romulan genes and/or individuals to their new colonies.

Havok wrote:Uh... what? Are you saying that the main goal of a species is to NOT avoid extinction? Hello numbnuts... no Vulcans, no Vulcan ideology.

Unless they teach another species to follow their ideology before going extinct. I would think this would be fairly obvious.

Drooling Iguana wrote:

Havok wrote:Uh... what? Are you saying that the main goal of a species is to NOT avoid extinction? Hello numbnuts... no Vulcans, no Vulcan ideology.

Unless they teach another species to follow their ideology before going extinct. I would think this would be fairly obvious.

Teach another... dude. Vulcans spent THOUSANDS OF YEARS suppressing their emotions which is the basis of their Ideology and then developing all other aspects around that. Assuming anyone else even wants to learn their ways, it is not something that is going to happen in a couple of generations.

At this point the major threat to Vulcans as a culture and species will likely be assimilation into other societies via acculturation and interbreeding. 10K individuals is enough to form a viable species and culture, the problem is they're refugees in societies of far more numerous people who have different values and who can interbreed with them. I think it's safe to assume this will inform the choices they make.

This is probably one reason why they seem interested in finding a new planet to colonize - if they can keep some degree of physical isolation the odds of being able to remain a coherent culture and species long-term go up.

I get the feeling Vulcans pairing off with non-Vulcans will probably not be something their leadership recieves too well.

Drooling Iguana wrote:

Havok wrote:Uh... what? Are you saying that the main goal of a species is to NOT avoid extinction? Hello numbnuts... no Vulcans, no Vulcan ideology.

Unless they teach another species to follow their ideology before going extinct. I would think this would be fairly obvious.

What? This is retarded. What in the movie gave you the impression that they didn't want to save their species? Was it the fact that they choose to establish a new colony instead of blending in to other cultures to spread their ideology?

Kamakazie Sith wrote:What? This is retarded. What in the movie gave you the impression that they didn't want to save their species? Was it the fact that they choose to establish a new colony instead of blending in to other cultures to spread their ideology?

I was just trying to explain Samuel's post.

Generation 1 Generation 2 Generation 3 Generation 4
initial population 10,000.00 27,500.00 75,625.00 200,406.25
Time frame 18.00 36.00 54.00 72.00
Average childen 8.00 8.00 8.00 8.00
Growth rate 3.00 3.00 3.00 3.00
rate -0.25 -0.25 -0.35 -0.35
Generation 27,500.00 75,625.00 200,406.25 531,076.56
Life expectancy 200.00 200.00 200.00 200.00

So... I tried to calculate and there were hilarious flaws....first off, this assumes that the population has septuplets every 18 nyears...so I'll work on that I also calculated a 25 $ mortality rate as well as...looking at it as I post....changed the average family to eight and left the growth rate the same whoops.

Before I continue is there a better way to do this than with excel?

Patrick Degan wrote:Pon-farr is only the one time when the mating drive outweighs all other drives, not the only time Vulcans can ever mate. Can we please have an end to this stupid brainbug now?

Havok wrote:I'm sure logic would dictate that the remaining Vulcans need to start making babies. Did you really have to ask this question?

I asked because the aforementioned brain bug entered canon itself. VOY and ENT mentioned increased production of hormones, serotonin, and endorphins. VOY mentioned that the brain's regulatory system seemed to shut down. ENT had microbes triggering pre-mature Pon Farr. All made it seem like the whole thing was some biological mechanism along the lines of a mating season.

Granted, those're from the later, shittier seasons of the show and NuTrek is a reboot. But there's the possibility that it may be addressed in later sequels and it's also possible that the "Pon Farr = biological mating season brainbug" may carry over if the writers draw their sources not only from TOS but also later incarnations of oldTrek.

Vulcans have typical lifespans of over 200 years, according to Memory Alpha. If we assume they mature at a similar rate to humans they'll probably get their first Pon Farr around 14. If we divide 200 by 7 we get 28 Pon Farr per lifespan. Of course, there's a lot of stuff we don't know here, like whether and when Vulcan females go through menopause and if Pon Farr stops when they get too old. Let's assume they lose fertility at 125, which gives them a fertile span equivalent to humans.

That gives them 16 Pon Farr per lifespan. Assuming each Pon Farr results in one pregnancy that's 16 children per lifespan. Let's also assume most Vulcans off Vulcan are older individuals with, oh, an average of 5 remaining Pon Farrs.

Generation 1: 10,000
Generation 2: 50,000
Generation 3: 800,000
Generation 4: 12.8 million
Generation 5: 204.8 million

I calculate they might get up to a population of maybe around half a million by TNG era by natural increase. Recovery of population to 204.8 million will happen by around 2800.

ERROR!

That's five children per couple in your first generation. Only females get pregnant, after all. Assuming 10k Vulcans left and a 50/50 gender split that's only 5,000 couples at most, which, with 5 pon farr for each couple (let's say it's an average, as some will be much older and others, such as NuSpock, much much younger) then only 25,000 children will be produced for the first post-disaster generation. Please refigure using that number for greater accuracy.

Each generation's production of children should be figured as ((total number of individuals)/2)*n, where n is the number of children produced on average per Vulcan lifetime.

Also, Tom - why the hell would the mortality rate be 25%? That's extraordinarily high. What is your rationale for that? Or am I misinterpreting your typo?

Ilya Muromets wrote:

Patrick Degan wrote:Pon-farr is only the one time when the mating drive outweighs all other drives, not the only time Vulcans can ever mate. Can we please have an end to this stupid brainbug now?

I asked because the aforementioned brain bug entered canon itself. VOY and ENT mentioned increased production of hormones, serotonin, and endorphins. VOY mentioned that the brain's regulatory system seemed to shut down. ENT had microbes triggering pre-mature Pon Farr. All made it seem like the whole thing was some biological mechanism along the lines of a mating season.

Granted, those're from the later, shittier seasons of the show and NuTrek is a reboot. But there's the possibility that it may be addressed in later sequels and it's also possible that the "Pon Farr = biological mating season brainbug" may carry over if the writers draw their sources not only from TOS but also later incarnations of oldTrek.

None of that means that Vulcans can mate only during pon-farr, though. And since other canon cleary contradicts any such notion, it's a safe bet that the brainbug is just that.

Themightytom wrote:So... I tried to calculate and there were hilarious flaws....first off, this assumes that the population has septuplets every 18 nyears...so I'll work on that I also calculated a 25% mortality rate as well as...looking at it as I post....changed the average family to eight and left the growth rate the same whoops.

Why would there be a 25% mortality rate? The new Vulcan colony won't have access to the latest Federation medical tech? The Vulcans will suddenly forget about the practise of medicine? They won't adequately feed themselves or completely fail to combat any and all manner of diseases? Are they going to settle on a highly radioactive planet? Just what is the basis for this assumption?

Ilya Muromets wrote:

Patrick Degan wrote:Pon-farr is only the one time when the mating drive outweighs all other drives, not the only time Vulcans can ever mate. Can we please have an end to this stupid brainbug now?

Havok wrote:I'm sure logic would dictate that the remaining Vulcans need to start making babies. Did you really have to ask this question?

I asked because the aforementioned brain bug entered canon itself. VOY and ENT mentioned increased production of hormones, serotonin, and endorphins. VOY mentioned that the brain's regulatory system seemed to shut down. ENT had microbes triggering pre-mature Pon Farr. All made it seem like the whole thing was some biological mechanism along the lines of a mating season.

Granted, those're from the later, shittier seasons of the show and NuTrek is a reboot. But there's the possibility that it may be addressed in later sequels and it's also possible that the "Pon Farr = biological mating season brainbug" may carry over if the writers draw their sources not only from TOS but also later incarnations of oldTrek.

None of that means the their reproductive organs stop working for the other 6 years and 11 months. It is just as Degan said... and then you quoted, it is just a time when they HAVE to mate. It is uncontrollable hornyness and the only thing that can stop it is some Vulcan dick or vagina. It is that simple. It does not mean that Vulcans can't have sex whenever they feel like either for pleasure or to reproduce. You are just still buying into the brain bug. And in case you are missing what exactly the brain bug is, it is thinking that the only time Vulcans can mate is during Pon Farr. Your examples from ENT and VOY are not the brain bug, but just more information on Pon Farr and it's mechanics.

Well, okay, fair enough. That was the just impression I got from their description of the mechanics. My mistake, then.