I was going to post this yesterday, but I completely forgot about it. 10 years ago yesterday, the series finale of DS9 aired, bringi9ng the Dominion War and the saga of Sisko and his crew to its conclusion (excluding the novel relaunch two years later, of course). Regardless of DS9's flaws, it was a fun ride and the end of an era, both from Trek and the quality of its programming. It's hard to believe a decade has come and gone.
Re: DS9: What You Leave Behind -- 10 Years Later
Posted: 2009-06-03 02:46pm
by Alferd Packer
I have, on the whole, a positive view of DS9, especially seasons 4-7. Even though some of the episodes were real turds, there were other true gems. "The Visitor" still makes me blubber like a little bitch every time I see it, or at least, it did as of four years ago.
Re: DS9: What You Leave Behind -- 10 Years Later
Posted: 2009-06-03 02:52pm
by Themightytom
JME2 wrote:I was going to post this yesterday, but I completely forgot about it. 10 years ago yesterday, the series finale of DS9 aired, bringi9ng the Dominion War and the saga of Sisko and his crew to its conclusion (excluding the novel relaunch two years later, of course). Regardless of DS9's flaws, it was a fun ride and the end of an era, both from Trek and the quality of its programming. It's hard to believe a decade has come and gone.
I still feel like they were pitching for a movie that never came. The Sisko/Dukat scene was kind of anti climactic, I would have rather have seen a grim ending, like Sisko grimly acknowledging that space is dangerous and good men gave their lives while Martok and Ross get wasted in the ruins of Cardassia (I brought a BARREL of 2308 there IS no finer vintage). maybe even a happy, upbeat one with some fast forwards to Kira becoming a great leader, or Jake telling stories to his little half brother or something.
Re: DS9: What You Leave Behind -- 10 Years Later
Posted: 2009-06-03 02:53pm
by JME2
Themightytom wrote:
JME2 wrote:I was going to post this yesterday, but I completely forgot about it. 10 years ago yesterday, the series finale of DS9 aired, bringi9ng the Dominion War and the saga of Sisko and his crew to its conclusion (excluding the novel relaunch two years later, of course). Regardless of DS9's flaws, it was a fun ride and the end of an era, both from Trek and the quality of its programming. It's hard to believe a decade has come and gone.
I still feel like they were pitching for a movie that never came. The Sisko/Dukat scene was kind of anti climactic, I would have rather have seen a grim ending, like Sisko grimly acknowledging that space is dangerous and good men gave their lives while Martok and Ross get wasted in the ruins of Cardassia (I brought a BARREL of 2308 there IS no finer vintage). maybe even a happy, upbeat one with some fast forwards to Kira becoming a great leader, or Jake telling stories to his little half brother or something.
The Sisko/Dukat confrontation was not the best ending to the Bajoran elements of the series. It always bugged me that the whole premise of bringing Bajor into the Federation was realized in the relaunch novels rather than on-screen.
Re: DS9: What You Leave Behind -- 10 Years Later
Posted: 2009-06-03 02:54pm
by Glom
The final episode was a bit of a mess. It felt really rushed.
Re: DS9: What You Leave Behind -- 10 Years Later
Posted: 2009-06-03 02:58pm
by Bounty
Glom wrote:The final episode was a bit of a mess. It felt really rushed.
Rushed? The finale arc alone took up ten episodes building on four years' worth of plot.
Re: DS9: What You Leave Behind -- 10 Years Later
Posted: 2009-06-03 03:03pm
by JME2
Bounty wrote:
Glom wrote:The final episode was a bit of a mess. It felt really rushed.
Rushed? The finale arc alone took up ten episodes building on four years' worth of plot.
The final stages to the Dominion War and the payoff in the Final Chapter was pretty well done; the Bajor/Pah-Wraith subplot is really the only major weak link in the FC, at least in my opinion.
Re: DS9: What You Leave Behind -- 10 Years Later
Posted: 2009-06-03 03:10pm
by Bounty
the Bajor/Pah-Wraith subplot is really the only major weak link in the FC, at least in my opinion.
I don't think there was much that could be done with the Bajor subplot after Rapture. It's too big to be stuffed into a one-off episode, it pales next to the Dominion War, and it's too intricate to be part of an arc. I'm glad the peculiar status of Bajor was consistently acknowledged with plot points like the non-aggression pact, but as a separate arc, I'm not sure how it could have been made to work gracefully without either drowning in the war plot or cluttering up the overall plot.
Re: DS9: What You Leave Behind -- 10 Years Later
Posted: 2009-06-03 03:28pm
by Glom
Ages ago, I wrote an abridged script for 'What You Leave Behind'.
Are the relaunch novels worth it? I have read all up to and including Unity. What of the following novels?
Because I hear they have pulled some stupid stuff in the recent novels
Spoiler
Ezri suddenly on command track? And where the heck is Bashir? Weren't the two an item?
Note: all the above is based on hearsay.
Re: DS9: What You Leave Behind -- 10 Years Later
Posted: 2009-06-03 03:40pm
by Big Orange
I thought "Taking to the Wind" was a much better episode on recent reviewing and while I can tolerate "What You Leave Behind" it certainly wasn't "All Good Things". Terrifying to know that both episodes are now ten and fifthteen years ago respectively.
Re: DS9: What You Leave Behind -- 10 Years Later
Posted: 2009-06-03 04:20pm
by JME2
Big Orange wrote:I thought "Taking to the Wind" was a much better episode on recent reviewing and while I can tolerate "What You Leave Behind" it certainly wasn't "All Good Things". Terrifying to know that both episodes are now ten and fifthteen years ago respectively.
Yeah, it makes me feel old, too.
Re: DS9: What You Leave Behind -- 10 Years Later
Posted: 2009-06-03 05:11pm
by Anguirus
I thought this was a bit better than AGT actually. It was rushed, but it didn't have that truly massive "anti-time" plothole.
The stock footage and the woo-woo magic are really the worst things about it. Liked the parody though.
Re: DS9: What You Leave Behind -- 10 Years Later
Posted: 2009-06-03 06:07pm
by Skylon
DS9 was always hit-or-miss for me. But when it was a hit, it was usually a solid one. In retrospect I was probably harder on it because it was running parallel to Babylon 5, which was doing a similar premise, but better. It really didn't find itself until season 3, much like TNG. I remember hating the "war with the Klingons" as it seemed to take a shit on ST 6: TUC, but it was resolved well. The build up to the war with the Dominion was well crafted. One thing that surprised me was I liked the comedy episodes...not just "Trials and Tribulations" but "Little Green Men" and "Our Man Bashier" were fun knocks on the time-travel and holodeck episodes respectively.
That said, I really didn't like the last season. The Pa-Wraith/Founder conflict took too much of a big part. Sisko became John Sheridan from B5. The space battles became tired (as well as the constant..."OMFG! The Federation is losing!" aura). I honestly feel DS9 could have wrapped up in season 6 had it been allowed to just stick to story-arc episodes.
One thing I always liked about DS9 was I found the characters more compelling than TNG's crew (with the exception of Jake).
Re: DS9: What You Leave Behind -- 10 Years Later
Posted: 2009-06-03 06:28pm
by DaveJB
Skylon wrote:It really didn't find itself until season 3, much like TNG.
I think DS9 actually found its footing in the second season, but got let down by run of pretty bland episodes between the 3-part opening arc and the introduction of the Maquis later in that season. The overall format of the series was definitely in place that year though.
For me, What You Leave Behind was a pretty efficient and well-executed finale, but was guilty of mostly taking the most straightforward route to resolving all the major plotlines. Sisko's "death" was where the series distinguished itself from the other Trek finales, but due to Avery Brooks' objections to having Sisko just snuff it out at the end of the series, Sisko's becoming a Prophet and promising to return to Kasidy one day had the unfortunate effect of basically turning him into Jesus.
Re: DS9: What You Leave Behind -- 10 Years Later
Posted: 2009-06-03 06:34pm
by Thanas
To me the episode where DS9 first revealed its potential was Season 1, Episode 19: "Duet".
To this day it still is one of my favorite Trek episodes in general.
Re: DS9: What You Leave Behind -- 10 Years Later
Posted: 2009-06-03 06:39pm
by JME2
Thanas wrote:To me the episode where DS9 first revealed its potential was Season 1, Episode 19: "Duet".
To this day it still is one of my favorite Trek episodes in general.
Hell yes; it's still on my Top 10 favorite DS9 episodes list after all these years.
Re: DS9: What You Leave Behind -- 10 Years Later
Posted: 2009-06-03 11:31pm
by Steve
"Duet" in the Top 10 DS9 eps? Try Top 10 Trek eps period. Harris Yulin acted the fuck out of that role. To think that the only other role I really remember him for was the asshole judge from "Ghostbusters 2".
Re: DS9: What You Leave Behind -- 10 Years Later
Posted: 2009-06-04 12:57am
by JME2
Steve wrote:"To think that the only other role I really remember him for was the asshole judge from "Ghostbusters 2".
"Sounds like a pretty open-minded guy, huh?"
"Yeah, they call him 'The Hammer'".
Re: DS9: What You Leave Behind -- 10 Years Later
Posted: 2009-06-04 01:03am
by Steve
JME2 wrote:
Steve wrote:"To think that the only other role I really remember him for was the asshole judge from "Ghostbusters 2".
"Sounds like a pretty open-minded guy, huh?"
"Yeah, they call him 'The Hammer'".
Actually when checking Yulin's IMDB profile I found another role I personally remember him for. An old 4th season (or was it 3rd?) Law & Order episode where he was a physicist who's estranged wife was killed on accident by an out-of-work scientist that had his work stolen by Yulin's character (mail-bomb that is.).
IOW, another asshole.
But neither role was as good as Aamin Marritza. Yulin almost stole the show in "Duet".
Re: DS9: What You Leave Behind -- 10 Years Later
Posted: 2009-06-04 03:44am
by Covenant
This got me thinking--I know some people who haven't ever really watched DS9, for whatever reason. I always felt it was the best of the Trek series, not like that's any huge distinction, but definately a very good sci-fi program without pretentions of being more than a mostly-shallow serialized plot with some gray-area characters.
Can people think of some of the best episodes to watch that don't just deliver enjoyment, like "Trials and Tribbleations," but also approach something like honestly excellent weekly television? As mentioned, Duet is a good example of really good bang-for-your-buck from a Trek series. What other ones would people recommend? For me it's a lot of the Garak episodes, such as In The Pale Moonlight and the Improbable Causes/The Die Is Cast double-episode, which I think show the capacity for schlock sci-fi to get some actual drama going, but I can't off the top of my head come up with a good list.
Re: DS9: What You Leave Behind -- 10 Years Later
Posted: 2009-06-04 05:42am
by Gunhead
I've never really watched DS9 for two reasons. 1) It was aired in a godawful on / off fashion here 2) My opinion of Star Trek as a whole is less than flattering. But people who have watched it say it's the best Trek series there is and many times compare it to B5, which I did like. What I want to know would you recommend this series to a person who mostly thinks Star Trek blows, but likes a series similar to it?
-Gunhead
Re: DS9: What You Leave Behind -- 10 Years Later
Posted: 2009-06-04 07:51am
by Thanas
Gunhead wrote:I've never really watched DS9 for two reasons. 1) It was aired in a godawful on / off fashion here 2) My opinion of Star Trek as a whole is less than flattering. But people who have watched it say it's the best Trek series there is and many times compare it to B5, which I did like. What I want to know would you recommend this series to a person who mostly thinks Star Trek blows, but likes a series similar to it?
Yes, definitely.
Steve wrote:"Duet" in the Top 10 DS9 eps? Try Top 10 Trek eps period. Harris Yulin acted the fuck out of that role.
Agreed. But he is not alone - Nana Visitor delievered a great performance as well and Rene Auberjonois is sublime as always. What a joy to watch them take each other to greath heights.
Covenant wrote:This got me thinking--I know some people who haven't ever really watched DS9, for whatever reason. I always felt it was the best of the Trek series, not like that's any huge distinction, but definately a very good sci-fi program without pretentions of being more than a mostly-shallow serialized plot with some gray-area characters.
Definitely agreed.
Can people think of some of the best episodes to watch that don't just deliver enjoyment, like "Trials and Tribbleations," but also approach something like honestly excellent weekly television? As mentioned, Duet is a good example of really good bang-for-your-buck from a Trek series. What other ones would people recommend? For me it's a lot of the Garak episodes, such as In The Pale Moonlight and the Improbable Causes/The Die Is Cast double-episode, which I think show the capacity for schlock sci-fi to get some actual drama going, but I can't off the top of my head come up with a good list.
Here's what I have come up with:
List of good episodes
(You'll note that most of these either involve Cardassia/Bajor, with the main characters being Kira, Odo and Garak. The reasons for that is that in my opinion these three were played by the best actors of the lot and the cardassia/Bajor had the best storyline potential as well.)
Duet
Cardassians
The Collaborator
Second Skin
Life Support
Heart of Stone
Improbable cause/The Die is Cast
Hippocratic Oath
Indiscretion
Our Man Bashir
Crossfire
Return to Grace
Nor the Battle to the Strong
Things Past
The Ascent
For the Uniform
Ties of Blood and Water
Children of Time
Empok Nor
The six episode arc of S5/6:
Call to Arms
A Time to Stand
Rocks and Shoals
Sons and Daughters
Behind the Lines
Favor the Bold
Sacrifice of Angels
Waltz
Far Beyond the Stars
Wrongs Darker Than Death or Night
In the Pale Moonlight
His Way
Tears of the Prophets
Take Me Out to the Holosuite
It's Only a Paper Moon
Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges
The 9-episode end of S7:
Penumbra
'Til Death Do Us Part
Strange Bedfellows
The Changing Face of Evil
When It Rains...
Tacking Into the Wind
Extreme Measures
The Dogs of War
What You Leave Behind
From those, I'd take my list of excellent episodes:
Duet - for reasons already mentioned
Second Skin - a great episode that might have been better if they kept us guessing in the end
Our Man Bashir - one of the best bond parodies I have ever seen
Crossfire - Rene Auberjonois performance is both great and heartbreaking.
Things Past - Another great performance by Rene Auberjonois
For the Uniform - Sisko's descent into madness, revealing himself to be unlike any other Startrek captain
Ties of Blood and Water - a lovely performance by both Lawrence Pressman and Nana Visitor
Children of Time - a classic. I am somewhat of two minds about it. I almost didn't include it because it is not that great of a story and is only rated excellent due to the performances by the cast.
Waltz - Marc Alaimo once more steals the show
Far Beyond the Stars - Interesting look at the episodes and DS9 in general
Wrongs Darker Than Death or Night - Another grey story and wonderful performances by both Marc Alaimo and Nana Visitor
In the Pale Moonlight - Morally grey but lovely nonetheless
His Way - Excellent for the performances. Might not be your cup of tea.
It's Only a Paper Moon - depression and battlefield wounds.
Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges - Grey and lovely. Plus, Romulans.
I would have included both six and 9 episode story arcs in that, but while the end product is excellent, the various episodes are IMO not.
Re: DS9: What You Leave Behind -- 10 Years Later
Posted: 2009-06-04 01:35pm
by JME2
Thanas wrote:Second Skin - a great episode that might have been better if they kept us guessing in the end.
Wasn't the original ending to have Bashir's medical tests come up inconclusive as to whether or not Kira was Bajoran or Cardassian, with Kira choosing to be her own person?
Thanas wrote:For the Uniform - Sisko's descent into madness, revealing himself to be unlike any other Startrek captain.
While this is one of my favorite episodes of the series (and my favorite installment of the Eddington trilogy), it always bugged me that there was never any geo-political fallout/punishment from the Starfleet Admiralty over Sisko's deployment of bio-weapons, even if it was a Maquis colony.[/quote]
Re: DS9: What You Leave Behind -- 10 Years Later
Posted: 2009-06-04 02:36pm
by Darth Paxis
Thanas wrote:Are the relaunch novels worth it? I have read all up to and including Unity. What of the following novels?
Because I hear they have pulled some stupid stuff in the recent novels
Spoiler
Ezri suddenly on command track? And where the heck is Bashir? Weren't the two an item?
Note: all the above is based on hearsay.
Spoiler
Yes, Ezri is a captain, but only becuse the original captain and first officer die in a borg attack.
Our Man Bashir - one of the best bond parodies I have ever seen
I liked how it compared the James Bond era spying with the more darker elements present in 24th century spy outfits (Obsidian Order, Section 31).
I can't remember the name of it, but I liked the episode where Sisko compromises his morals to bring the Romulans into the war, and then says that he would do it again.
