Orthodox judaism vs. Satans automatic lightswitch

[frogcurry]

A slightly bonkers couple in England are claiming that having an automated light operated by a motion sensor in the hall outside their flat violates their religious rights..... .... because the light comes on automatically when they leave on the Sabbath. They're sueing to get an override installed so they can switch off the automated lights instead.

A couple have taken legal action after claiming motion sensors installed at their holiday flat in Dorset breached their rights as Orthodox Jews. Gordon and Dena Coleman said they cannot leave or enter their Bournemouth flat on the Sabbath because the hallway sensors automatically switch on lights. The couple's religious code bans lights and other electrical equipment being switched on during Jewish holidays. They have now issued a county court writ claiming religious discrimination. They also claim breach of their rights under the Equality Act 2006 and Human Rights Act 1998 and the case is due to be heard at Bournemouth County Court next month.

The light sensors were installed at Embassy Court in Gervis Road to save money and energy but the couple, who live in Hertfordshire, felt they breached their religious rules. Dr Coleman and her husband offered to pay for an override switch as a compromise but Embassy Court Management Company rejected this and the couple took legal advice. They have said they will drop the legal action if an override switch is installed and their legal costs and compensation are paid.

The firm said almost all residents supported the installation of the sensors and taking legal action was the Colemans' "prerogative". Other residents in the block of 35 flats, who could end up having to pay legal costs, are upset. Neighbours meeting One of them, who did not wish to be named but attended a management meeting last week with the couple, said: "For some time there has been discussions around here about the lights being on all day, which is crazy.

"Light sensors mean the lights only come on when you require them to be on, which is common sense.

"This couple are observant Jews. They have a religious problem with this.

"It has gone further than it should have done, I think they have jumped the gun.

"They did come to a meeting and put their point of view forward.

"The general view was that despite any differences the matter should be resolved as quickly as we can.

"It just seems to have been blown out of all proportion."

In a letter to the other residents, the couple said they sought legal help because the sensor lights meant they would never again have full use of their flat. They also said that their solicitors told them they had a strong claim.

Linky:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/dorset/8103581.stm

You gotta love this sort of idiot.. no wait you don't. What grinds my teeth here is that this will cost the other residents for the court costs, the solicitors etc even if they beat these fools. And if they lose, its a slippery slope with something like this.

Surely if the light is coming on it would class as the actions of another person, not them? If this is how they interpret their religious beliefs then they'll be in trouble if they ever get hooked up to a life support machine. And I can't believe for a second that any sensible Jewish person - no matter how religious - doesn't switch the electric lights on at all on the Sabbath. Otherwise there'd be a lot of dead orthodox jewish people in the morgue every winter due to accidents in the dark hours.

Normally I'm pretty much pro-religion on the basis that I see it as people freedom to believe what they like, but this sort of thing is just ridiculous

[Isolder74]

This is way pushing the concept of breaking the Sabbath, and how would you fix it? Imagine the programming nightmare as various religions think of different days of the week as their Sabbath.

[Broomstick]

Let me clarify a few things for you.

You gotta love this sort of idiot.. no wait you don't.

First point - not all Jews, not even all Orthodox Jews, are this sort of batshit crazy.

Surely if the light is coming on it would class as the actions of another person, not them?

That is, indeed, the argument used by many Jews to have automated systems of this sort, and an argument that they are not a violation of the sabbath. Equally clearly from this article there are Jews who disagree.

If this is how they interpret their religious beliefs then they'll be in trouble if they ever get hooked up to a life support machine.

In this you are incorrect. In order to save a human life almost any Jewish prohibition can be waived. For example, despite a prohibition on consuming pork, life-saving heart values from a pig is entirely permitted. Likewise, despite a prohibition on consuming blood, blood transfusions to save a life are permitted. And so on. So life support equipment operating on the sabbath is entirely OK.

And I can't believe for a second that any sensible Jewish person - no matter how religious - doesn't switch the electric lights on at all on the Sabbath. Otherwise there'd be a lot of dead orthodox jewish people in the morgue every winter due to accidents in the dark hours.

You fail to understand the prohibition is NOT the lights being on, it's the change from off to on or back again. Orthodox Jews turn on certain lights in the house before the sabbath and leave them on during the entire sabbath. So no problem with tripping over the dog in the dark.

A non-Jew is certainly permitted to turn the lights on and off on the sabbath, as Jewish prohibitions do not apply to them. A sabbath goy is a non-Jew who comes over to visit Jews on the sabbath and does useful things like, perhaps, shoveling the snow off a walk or turning something on, or turning it off (lighting and turning off stoves being very common), which are not done by Jews on the sabbath but which non-Jews are not prohibited from doing. Relaying phone messages is a common one these days - as an example, if you need to get ahold of an Orthodox Jew on the sabbath you can call a non-Jew neighbor, give them a message that they can then deliver in person, even receive a reply, which avoids violating the sabbath rules. Now, the Jew making a response can't tell the non-Jew to relay the message back on the sabbath, but the non-Jew is certainly free to deliver that information immediately instead of waiting.

But the stupidity of this couple is really astonishing because there is a very easy way to get around their problem. All they have to do it trigger the sensor before the sabbath and do what it takes to keep it triggered until sabbath is over. If it's a matter of block the light from a sensor to turn the light on then simply block the sensor - put something over the damn thing so it goes on and stays on. If it needs motion, get a battery-operated toy or pinwheel or something moves - a music metronome, perhaps - turn in it on, and set it in front of the sensor before sabbath starts. Again it triggers the sensor, the light goes on and stays on. End of problem. Well, OK, slightly more energy used on the sabbath at that one apartment, but it would seem a reasonable compromise.

People are fucking idiots sometimes.

[Alyeska]

More to the point, this is outside of their apartment in common area that is used by anyone. This single couple should not be able to dictate standards for everyone else.

[Andrew_Fireborn]

But the stupidity of this couple is really astonishing because there is a very easy way to get around their problem. All they have to do it trigger the sensor before the sabbath and do what it takes to keep it triggered until sabbath is over. If it's a matter of block the light from a sensor to turn the light on then simply block the sensor - put something over the damn thing so it goes on and stays on. If it needs motion, get a battery-operated toy or pinwheel or something moves - a music metronome, perhaps - turn in it on, and set it in front of the sensor before sabbath starts. Again it triggers the sensor, the light goes on and stays on. End of problem. Well, OK, slightly more energy used on the sabbath at that one apartment, but it would seem a reasonable compromise.

People are fucking idiots sometimes.

It would be even slightly easier than that, if we could get a less insane orthodox rabbi to tell them that this doesn't count as work, or counts as a non-jew doing it...

[Serafina]

I would say they would be justified if it was IN their own apartment (rented or not), but, as Alyeska already pointed out, it's not.
I would still think it's stupid, but it's their own business. But it affects others, so you have to draw a line there.
Otherwise, you could demand all sorts of stupid shit.

[Darth Wong]

Streetlights automatically switch on when it gets dark, even on the Sabbath Day. After this lawsuit is concluded, maybe they can sue the city about that too. After all, they might want to walk on the street early in the morning or late in the evening.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Under Orthodox Jewish law the sensors pose a problem because the physical motion of the couple causes them to activate, thus they are doing work, which is breaking the Sabbath, and thus why they can't leave their apartment on the Sabbath. Essentially to Orthodox Jewry, sabbath-breaking involves doing any kind of work on the Sabbath. If someone else was activating the lights, it wouldn't be an issue, nor would darkness activating the lights be an issue. The specific issue is that the lights only activate when they or someone else walks through the area.

Though they could, strictly speaking, wait until someone else enters the corridor, activating the lights, and then walk out themselves. But under this strictest of interpretations of Jewish law, they are indeed banned from walking down that corridor.

[Darth Wong]

How do these fuckers expect to live in normal society if they're so strict? Shouldn't they go isolate themselves, like the Amish?

[General Zod]

You gotta love this sort of idiot.. no wait you don't. What grinds my teeth here is that this will cost the other residents for the court costs, the solicitors etc even if they beat these fools. And if they lose, its a slippery slope with something like this.

Doesn't Britain have a loser pays law?

[Isolder74]

I know a few Orthodox Jews and I showed them this article and they said they are crazy.

[Broomstick]

How do these fuckers expect to live in normal society if they're so strict? Shouldn't they go isolate themselves, like the Amish?

In the US, Jews with this strict an interpretation of Jewish law typically do isolate themselves in separate communities. However, most Orthodox Jews aren't this strict. Seriously, by the standard Marina gave opening the door to go outside would constitute work and be forbidden. Most really aren't this crazy-strict.

[FSTargetDrone]

How do these fuckers expect to live in normal society if they're so strict? Shouldn't they go isolate themselves, like the Amish?

Heh, even the Amish have no problems interacting with the rest of society.

Anyway, back to the issue of doing work. If this couple or people with similarly-restrictive views are so strict about not "doing work," shouldn't they lie motionless and fast during the period in question? Merely moving around and interacting with the items in the apartment is doing some kind of work. I could interpret bathing and eating as doing work if I wanted to take it far enough. Getting dressed is far more work-intensive than stepping out of a door into a hallway. What's the fundamental difference between putting on clothing and activating a light?

My guess is that there is some allowance for relieving oneself during this period.

[Soldier of Entropy]

How do these fuckers expect to live in normal society if they're so strict? Shouldn't they go isolate themselves, like the Amish?

In the US, Jews with this strict an interpretation of Jewish law typically do isolate themselves in separate communities. However, most Orthodox Jews aren't this strict. Seriously, by the standard Marina gave opening the door to go outside would constitute work and be forbidden. Most really aren't this crazy-strict.

Anyway, back to the issue of doing work. If they are so strict about not "doing work," shouldn't they lie motionless and fast during the period in question? Merely moving around and interacting with the items in the apartment is doing some kind of work. I could interpret bathing and eating as doing work if I wanted to take it far enough. Getting dressed is far more work-intensive than stepping out of a door into a hallway. What's the fundamental difference between putting on clothing and activating a light?

My guess is that there is some allowance for relieving oneself during this period.

Actually, no. As I recall, most of the crazy 'this is work' stuff the orthodox hold comes from some obscure passage in the Torah pertaining to what activities were and were not permitted to be done on the Sabbath pertaining to the building of the Tabernacle. One of these was that it was forbidden to start a fire, and, by most Orthodox tradition, making a spark constitutes starting a fire (absurd, I know), and so turning on a light (among other electricity-related things is forbidden. On a similar note, to demonstrate how thoroughly absurd that interpretation is, many Orthodox Jews walk miles to synagogue on the Sabbath, rather than drive, because starting the ignition creates a spark (and also because driving is considered analogous to riding a horse, also forbidden on the Sabbath).

[Samuel]

How do these fuckers expect to live in normal society if they're so strict? Shouldn't they go isolate themselves, like the Amish?

Heh, even the Amish have no problems interacting with the rest of society.

Anyway, back to the issue of doing work. If this couple or people with similarly-restrictive views are so strict about not "doing work," shouldn't they lie motionless and fast during the period in question? Merely moving around and interacting with the items in the apartment is doing some kind of work. I could interpret bathing and eating as doing work if I wanted to take it far enough. Getting dressed is far more work-intensive than stepping out of a door into a hallway. What's the fundamental difference between putting on clothing and activating a light?

My guess is that there is some allowance for relieving oneself during this period.

They don't use the physics definition of work- more like the paid labor definition.

[Coyote]

And technically, hiring a Shabbos Goy is prohibited. So is walking more than 3 miles on Shabbat (somehoe they decided that after 3 miles, it's not a simple stroll for relaxation, it is a journey, and therefore prohibited).

The couple here seems to present the extreme end; I'm surprised they're not in an isolated community of like-minded types. I havge a feeling they're just trying to be nitpicky and wave their flag to say "hey, look, everyone... we're different! We're special!"

Most real Orthodox Jews worth their kashering salt would realize that an automatic light in a dark apartment stairwell is a safety feature (potentially saving a life) it's actions are automatically pre-determined (not turned on for Shabbat) and by automatically turning off, helps save resources/the environment (another mitzvah).

Oh, and the light switch isn't "satanic". We don't really have a "Satan" except as a sort of personification of human shortfalls and willingness to allow temptation to rule our lives. It was Christianity that turned the concept into an actual character, an "evil sub-god" entity.

[Coyote]

I could interpret bathing and eating as doing work if I wanted to take it far enough. Getting dressed is far more work-intensive than stepping out of a door into a hallway. What's the fundamental difference between putting on clothing and activating a light?

My guess is that there is some allowance for relieving oneself during this period.

Like Samuel said, this is more the 'paid labor' version of work, but many Conservative and Orthodox Jews actually do not shower on Shabbat, and I've been to houses where the toilet-paper was pre-torn for use. Obviously, the light in the bathroom is one of the lights left on for the 24 hours of Shabbat. There are special low-intensity cooking plates made specifically for this market that allows food to be kept constanrtly warmed, safely, for extended hours of use.

The idea is not to interact with fire/spark, etc. Basically, for one day a week, you are not allowed to be master of your environment, but simply live within it, as a part of it. If a fire/electronic device is already going, you should leave it going; or if a fire/device is not already on, you must leave it off. Obviously, for emergencies, this is suspended.

I don't come anywhere near this level of exactness, myself. I use electronics like crazy on Shabbat (wrist slap). I do follow the dietary stuff, but that's a different ball o' wax.

[sketerpot]

Why this obsession with sparks? I realize that light switches can cause small sparks when they open or close, but there are plenty of ways to avoid that sparking. For example, are solid state relay switches okay? They don't produce a spark. Or you could have the switch in a small vacuum-sealed chamber, so there's no air to ionize; these cost somewhere in the neighborhood of $20 apiece.

This is all totally arbitrary, isn't it?

[Coyote]

The modern equivilent to starting a fire is "sparking" a light; causing a light to go on. It doesn't necessarily have to involve an actual spark.

If the literal meaning of "don't light any fires on Shabbat" were followed, it'd be ludicrously easy to sail through Shabbat these days without noticing. Few people need an actual wood-cracklin', coal-shovelin' fire to make it through the day. So light switches, car ignitions, etc are used as modern interpretations of the old fire sparking.

[Soldier of Entropy]

The modern equivilent to starting a fire is "sparking" a light; causing a light to go on. It doesn't necessarily have to involve an actual spark.

If the literal meaning of "don't light any fires on Shabbat" were followed, it'd be ludicrously easy to sail through Shabbat these days without noticing. Few people need an actual wood-cracklin', coal-shovelin' fire to make it through the day. So light switches, car ignitions, etc are used as modern interpretations of the old fire sparking.

But the reasoning behind the prohibition on starting a fire was that it took considerable work to build the fire, light the spark, maintain the fire, put the fire out safely, etc. In contrast, turning on a light switch is easy. Similarly, to ride a horse, one had to saddle the horse, feed it, get it ready, etc., making it easier to walk. However, driving a car is much easier than walking.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

How do these fuckers expect to live in normal society if they're so strict? Shouldn't they go isolate themselves, like the Amish?

In the US, Jews with this strict an interpretation of Jewish law typically do isolate themselves in separate communities. However, most Orthodox Jews aren't this strict. Seriously, by the standard Marina gave opening the door to go outside would constitute work and be forbidden. Most really aren't this crazy-strict.

These Jews actually rip off sections of toilet paper in advance of the Sabbath, as pulling sections off of the toilet paper roll would constitute doing work on the Sabbath. Apparently opening the door to your house on the Sabbath is acceptable to them, but ONLY if you are leaving your house to go attend religious services. They also eat cold food on the Sabbath that is prepared the day before.

[FSTargetDrone]

They don't use the physics definition of work- more like the paid labor definition.

Yeah, sorry, I wasn't going for the former.

But now reading that toilet paper is pre-torn and bathing is actually avoided by some, I guess it isn't too far off to say that some believers avoid doing much of anything at all that isn't involved with worship in some way (traveling, etc.)

[Coyote]

But the reasoning behind the prohibition on starting a fire was that it took considerable work to build the fire, light the spark, maintain the fire, put the fire out safely, etc. In contrast, turning on a light switch is easy. Similarly, to ride a horse, one had to saddle the horse, feed it, get it ready, etc., making it easier to walk. However, driving a car is much easier than walking.

Not... entirely, no. It's not so much the work with building a fire, but simply the lighting of a fire in itself. It is man forcing change on the environment in what could be described as a godlike act. See, God made Man in his image, and on the 7th day, God reseted-- so man, in his image, should too. No more creating/changing/exerting control/etc.

Technically, there's a lot of inconsistencies (how is flicking a lighter "work" but opening a door isn't?). I guess opening a door doesn't really exert much of a real change on the environment; remember these standards were adopted when living in warm Mediterannean climates, unlike in the Arctic, where leaving a door opened or closed can have a substantial impact.

There's a lot of old traditions that stood the test of time. Without much variation in seasons, it was easier to track the year through observing the phases of the moon. So in Judaism, there's still adherence to the Lunar calendar, although it is altered to keep it in time with the general seasons (unlike in Islam, which adheres to lunar cycles rigidly, so Ramadan, New Years, etc, migrate through the years).

Also, bear in mind that this strict adherence is only on Shabbat, not all the time. I joked with the Orthodox that they were part of the "Amish Reserves" because they only were "weekend Luddites". During normal days of the week they drive cars, use air conditioning, fly in planes, etc.

[Soldier of Entropy]

But now reading that toilet paper is pre-torn and bathing is actually avoided by some, I guess it isn't too far off to say that some believers avoid doing much of anything at all that isn't involved with worship in some way (traveling, etc.)

Some do-there is a whole thing with putting a rope around a community so that those who are keeping Shabbat can travel within it... I don't recall what it's called or the particulars. On the other hand, there is the somewhat well-known trivia fact that having sex on Shabbat is considered a 'double mitzvah' (though only within marriage)-one for having sex within marriage (or something like that) and another for enjoying Shabbat. If it's unprotected sex, it's a triple, for attempting procreation.

Not... entirely, no. It's not so much the work with building a fire, but simply the lighting of a fire in itself. It is man forcing change on the environment in what could be described as a godlike act. See, God made Man in his image, and on the 7th day, God reseted-- so man, in his image, should too. No more creating/changing/exerting control/etc.

Hunh. That explanation was never given to me during my Jewish education-though I was raised Conservative, not Orthodox. However, that still doesn't explain the 'driving' aspect-how is driving exerting change on the environment?

Also, logically, if no change can be exerted on the environment, wouldn't that mean that people should live outside on Shabbat? Air conditioning and heating systems should be banned on Shabbat for anyone who keeps it to the standard of not exerting change on the environment, unless of course that would threaten their life. Such would be the case for many older people, of course, but I see no reason why a 20-year old Orthodox Jew in a temperate climate in November needs the heat to be on to live. He could easily put on a sweater.

Technically, there's a lot of inconsistencies (how is flicking a lighter "work" but opening a door isn't?). I guess opening a door doesn't really exert much of a real change on the environment; remember these standards were adopted when living in warm Mediterannean climates, unlike in the Arctic, where leaving a door opened or closed can have a substantial impact.

Yes, there are.

There's a lot of old traditions that stood the test of time. Without much variation in seasons, it was easier to track the year through observing the phases of the moon. So in Judaism, there's still adherence to the Lunar calendar, although it is altered to keep it in time with the general seasons (unlike in Islam, which adheres to lunar cycles rigidly, so Ramadan, New Years, etc, migrate through the years).

Proof that even the Orthodox can adapt. So why not here?

Also, bear in mind that this strict adherence is only on Shabbat, not all the time. I joked with the Orthodox that they were part of the "Amish Reserves" because they only were "weekend Luddites". During normal days of the week they drive cars, use air conditioning, fly in planes, etc.

So some don't use air conditioning? Surprising. Still, do they forgo heat in the winter on Shabbat?

[FSTargetDrone]

Keep in mind that the Amish do not necessarily forbid members to use technology. As with any group, there are variations. Here are some excerpts from a long essay on the Amish:

...In the United States and Canada there are several groups known as Amish, often each sect differing over the adoption of the surrounding culture's technology (rather than theology). The most conservative Amish group is known as the Old Order Amish. Newer Amish groups are called the Beachy and New Order Amish. While to the outsider it may seem that divisions are based on theology, they would be mistaken. Old Order Amish differ most from the Beachy and New Order Amish in that they don't use electricity, telephones and tractors--mostly issues of technology. A small theological difference is the way bible study is treated. The Old Order Amish believe that intensive bible study leads to critical interpretation of the bible (such as the Hasidic Jews study). This goes against their belief of a literal interpretation of the bible. Another reason has to do with the value of memorizing quotations from the bible. Religion, however, is not the primary difference between the Old and New Order Amish. The New Order Amish have a quicker rate of social change and acceptance of modernization than do the Old Order Amish. New Order Amish often use electricity to power farm equipment and even household appliances. It is not unknown for them to also have telephones in the house, which are banned in the Old Order. The Old Order do not allow telephones or 110 volt electricity as it quite literally ties the Amish to the outside world, eventually, they believe, leading to television and other "worldliness." Gas-powered tractors are often used by the New Order Amish instead of draft horses. Beachy Amish are similar to the New Order, except that they may own cars. (The Old and New Order Amish do not object to riding in cars but to the ownership of them. This is due to the negative increase in freedom and individualism it gives the Amish men). Differences between the Amish vary from state to state and between church districts. The Amish do not, like Catholics, have a central figure or consistent laws governing their actions. Instead, decisions are made in the individual church districts (usually 20-40 families or 50-150 members per church district) according to unwritten doctrine.

Also:

Amish, however, do not completely restrict change or social interaction with the outside world. They also have to compromise with the outside world to survive. Most of these compromises are limited to farming and have economic roots such as competing with non-Amish farms that are necessary to insuring Amish survival. One example that peaks the curiosity of visitors in Lancaster Co. is when they see Amish driving in cars or trucks. While the Amish can not own cars and trucks, there are no restrictions on driving in them or hiring outsiders to drive Amish produce or products to market. In fact it can be necessary for economic purposes. To the "English," what the Amish allow or prohibit can seem bewildering. The regulation about electricity is a good example. It's not just YES or NO. The issue, in terms of 110 volt electricity, is that 110 volt electricity connects the Amish to the secular world, whereas 12 volts does not. Generating your own 110 volt power is also different than depending on it from the outside world. While 110 volt electricity from power lines may be banned, it has become necessary as farming has become more mechanized and competitive to use 12 volt batteries. The use of 12 volt electricity can be used to power numerous farm and shop implements without connecting the farm or shop to the outside world through wires. In some churches, electrical generators have come into use. Amish dairy farmers during the 1960's started using generators to power bulk tanks in order to refrigerate their milk at the request of milk companies, otherwise Amish farmers faced termination by milk companies (Kraybill 1990, p.73). Again, the use of electrical generators were a necessary comprimise.

Note that the "English" referenced here are what the Amish call those people who are not of their groups, at least in North America. To them, I would be "English" (despite the fact that I am of Mexican and Czech descent!).