Salvation War Criticism Thread

[PeZook]

Help me, people!

I mean, it's one sided. It's patently obvious humans are going to win. The demons are complete fools who always stay one step behind us. There's a lot of infodumping. It smells of Clancy, despite professing its hate for him. I know the ending after the first two chapters.

But I'm on chapter seventy and can't stop.

Help! What's wrong with me?

[thejester]

I was wondering the same thing, but replace Armageddon with Ghost in the Shell

"Ah, Major! I feel the need to explain wanky complex sociological phenomenon to you despite knowing full well that you are already familiar with them. So, Laughing Man Complex..."

cut to gratuitous boob shot of Major

[Rye]

It's a masterful nerd-satire on how to write a conflictless novel from something as seemingly easy to turn into hellish peril as the Doom series of games.

[Darth Raptor]

You enjoy the hilarious insights into Stuart Slade?

[Themightytom]

Reading Armageddon is like watching the made for TV movies they air on sci fi (Which typically star Dean cain or That Guy From Stargate).

You don't watch for quality, you watch because nothing else is on.

Likewise the Fanfics section is R-e-a-l-ly dragging right now...

[Junghalli]

Help me, people!

I mean, it's one sided. It's patently obvious humans are going to win. The demons are complete fools who always stay one step behind us. There's a lot of infodumping. It smells of Clancy, despite professing its hate for him. I know the ending after the first two chapters.

But I'm on chapter seventy and can't stop.

Help! What's wrong with me?

Maybe because the concepts are awesome even though the execution kinda sucks?

That's the reason I read it.

Just remember it's really a mockumentary-style thingie so it doesn't need tension or an actually intimidating villain or any of that stuff.

[Ford Prefect]

Likewise the Fanfics section is R-e-a-l-ly dragging right now...

that may be because i have not posted there in some time

maybe

lol

pretentious dialogue

hey do not go that far

pretentious is quoting milton like they do in gits innocence

stark must have loved that lol

[Darth Nostril]

stark most of loved that lol

Spelling and grammar are not your friends are they?

[RedImperator]

the armageddon dialog actually strikes me as being realistic

of course tropers should know that REALISM IS UNREALISTIC and so on and so forth because technical people would NEVER talk details no sir

The technical jargon is fine. It's the rest that caused me to mutter, "People don't talk like this" and give up on the story (that and it's really dragging; serialization and incredibly long stories where the plot moves in tiny increments with each update don't work particularly well for me). I mean, it wouldn't be fair for me to slag it, since what we're seeing is a first draft, and it's perfectly legitimate for a first draft to be a total pile of shit, but it's to the point that I'm not investing any more time in it until it gets at least good, solid edit.

[tim31]

Are you going to get a copy of the published work Red? It's apparently 'not far off', although you'd know exactly what that means better than most

[RedImperator]

Are you going to get a copy of the published work Red? It's apparently 'not far off', although you'd know exactly what that means better than most

I'll wait on the reviews. There were big chunks that draaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaged even correcting for the incremental updates (that whole subplot about the demon running around England gathering a cult sticks out; I ended up scrolling right past those sections without reading--tellingly, I had no trouble understanding anything that came after).

[Shroom Man 777]

the armageddon dialog actually strikes me as being realistic

of course tropers should know that REALISM IS UNREALISTIC and so on and so forth because technical people would NEVER talk details no sir

The technical jargon is fine. It's the rest that caused me to mutter, "People don't talk like this"

I pointed that out too! LOL personal anecdotes

[Stark]

no read it

this needs to be like that show where the respected guy rips shit out of all his friend's work because it's inferior

then he can answer questions like 'is armageddon complete horseshit because Stuart can't write to save his own dick or because he's writing it directly for a forum fully of no-standards sycophants' and he can segue into a discussion of how environment shapes art

[General Zod]

no read it

this needs to be like that show where the respected guy rips shit out of all his friend's work because it's inferior

then he can answer questions like 'is armageddon complete horseshit because Stuart can't write to save his own dick or because he's writing it directly for a forum fully of no-standards sycophants' and he can segue into a discussion of how environment shapes art

i think the real burning question is has anyone actually bought his book who didn't hear about it on an internet forum first

[Darth Yan]

I read it because it's awesome. Yes it drags, but the action sequences are good, the characters are likable, and the concept and execution are cool.

The whole humans are tough is sort of the point. They only gained the tech to beat demons in the last lifetime, and besides, the Demon's didn't keep track of humans. The point is how both humans and demons react to their societies changing.

Ps In patheocide the humans actually are having a lot of difficulty. In one chapter Spoiler

Yahweh kills more humans then all the demons put together did

Mainly because the angels are capable of adapting and changing their game plans.

[RedImperator]

I read it because it's awesome. Yes it drags, but the action sequences are good, the characters are likable, and the concept and execution are cool.

I actually do find the concept interesting. And the battles are decent. I'm not sure which characters you're referring to; other than the real-world ones and a handful of the big-shot supernaturals, I can't even tell them apart beyond "military guy", "demon", "ancient dead guy", "modern dead guy", "angel with a drug habit", et cetera.

As for the execution, I thought the demons were considerably better executed than the angels. I'm not really talking about first draft stuff here, either. Finding out that heaven has actually been paying attention to Earth and knows about humanity's technological advances just totally blew out my suspension of disbelief, in two directions. First, it was already a stretch to believe the demons were totally ignorant of modern technology (so school shootings are caused by demon possession...but nobody in Hell thought to wonder where the magical boomsticks came from?), but finding out that Hell's archenemy can and was keeping tabs on Earth the whole time just brought the whole thing to a crash stop. Second, I was frankly disappointed by Heaven and its motivations. Yahweh being a screaming brat I was fine with (it matches his Old Testament characterization pretty well), but Michael, the real main antagonist, the aeons-old cosmic alien with deep insight into the workings of Heaven, Earth, and Hell, is basically nothing more than Meyer Lansky with wings. I was hoping for more than that.

The whole humans are tough is sort of the point. They only gained the tech to beat demons in the last lifetime, and besides, the Demon's didn't keep track of humans. The point is how both humans and demons react to their societies changing.

I'm pretty sure that point could be made in fewer than 300,000 words.

Ps In patheocide the humans actually are having a lot of difficulty. In one chapter Spoiler

Yahweh kills more humans then all the demons put together did

Mainly because the angels are capable of adapting and changing their game plans.

Yeah, but do you or anyone else seriously believe, even for a second, that the humans are going to lose? Yeah, Yahweh can and possibly will kill lots of people before then, but so what? They pop up in Hell ten minutes later, call the life insurance company, buy a condo on the Styx, and get on with their afterlife. You can make a story where one side has an overwhelming advantage over the other and still invest it with tension, but you also really desperately need likable main characters in danger to pull that off. I don't think Pantheocide has them, and they're not in any real danger anyway.

Happy, Stark?

[RedImperator]

and he can segue into a discussion of how environment shapes art

Segue time!

After having written and posted a first draft for an audience (to be fair, I had no idea until more than halfway through that I ever intended to do anything but post it on the Internet), I can tell you that there's a good reason most writers will tell you not to let people read your first draft. I found two big problems as I was working: first, I was stuck with plot decisions I'd made weeks before when I had no real idea where the story was going. I couldn't go back and revise, so that left me with either trying to contort the plot to fit everything that had come before and everything I wanted to do later, or make massive retcons. I did the former and wound up with a huge mess to untangle when I went to edit. Second, when I was editing, I found myself making editing decisions not based on "Does this make the story better?" but, "Hey, didn't X really like that part?" or, "Man, Y's going to be really pissed if I kill that character". It got to the point that for my second round of test readers, I deliberately sought out people who'd never read it before.

That's not to say there aren't advantages. The real-time feedback was great and definitely made the story better, and I honestly don't know if I would have finished if I didn't have an audience waiting for the next chapter. I'll freely admit I was high on the praise and would write chapters with "Man, I can't wait until people tell me how awesome this is" clattering around my brain (anyone who posts serials on the Internet who claims he doesn't feel that way is a liar). It's a great feeling but it's also dangerous, because it can easily lead you to pandering, or leave you feeling like your stuff is a lot better than it actually is. Conversely, I know a lot of writers who've posted on the Internet and gotten slagged by some asshole and quit--and a few who melted down even when faced with relatively mild criticism.

That's another reason not to post first drafts. A lot of writers are thin-skinned and probably all of them have serious doubts about their abilities even at the best of times (Lord knows I do). Criticism always hits harder than praise, and a first draft is by its nature going to be ripe for criticism.

This probably wasn't exactly what you were looking for, but my first story was something that was almost tailor-made for the SDN audience, so I can't tell you how much the environment would have affected me if I were, say, writing a romance or a sword and sorcery fantasy or something.

[Ford Prefect]

I'll freely admit I was high on the praise and would write chapters with "Man, I can't wait until people tell me how awesome this is" clattering around my brain (anyone who posts serials on the Internet who claims he doesn't feel that way is a liar)

Seriously. Most of the appeal of posting fanfiction on Spacebattles is how easy it is to get praise, and some of the things said in response to my writing are positively ludicrous (and there some members there who will constructively critique your work). I think it is preferable to have a few responses of serious critique like 'this is juvenile rubbish' as oppossed to a dozen posts of 'goddamn you are a sexy man ford prefect' but there's no comparison which feels nicer. Maybe if I was more serious about writing and actually really wanted to become a published writer I ... probably wouldn't post my shit on SDN anyway.

[Stark]

This probably wasn't exactly what you were looking for, but my first story was something that was almost tailor-made for the SDN audience, so I can't tell you how much the environment would have affected me if I were, say, writing a romance or a sword and sorcery fantasy or something.

It's what I was looking for... just with less finger-pointing 'focusing on fellating your board 'friends' does not help your story' than I hoped. Do you know when you realised your fic wasn't just a board thing anymore, and decided to put all the extra work in to polish it?

[Darth Yan]

the ancient dead guys were cool largely because it was interesting watching them adjust to the modern world. The demon possession was a stretch, but believable, and the heaven keeping tabs wasn't too hard to swallow (Heaven and Hell hate each other, and Yahweh is an arrogant douche.) Michael, is in my opinion, a great villian. Evil, yet charming at the same time

[RedImperator]

This probably wasn't exactly what you were looking for, but my first story was something that was almost tailor-made for the SDN audience, so I can't tell you how much the environment would have affected me if I were, say, writing a romance or a sword and sorcery fantasy or something.

It's what I was looking for... just with less finger-pointing 'focusing on fellating your board 'friends' does not help your story' than I hoped. Do you know when you realised your fic wasn't just a board thing anymore, and decided to put all the extra work in to polish it?

I actually don't. As late as when I posted chapter 4, I was telling people I didn't think it was good enough for commercial sales (sometimes I still don't; that's the self-doubt I was talking about in the last post). There definitely wasn't any kind of "eureka" moment; I toyed with the idea for a while, and then at some point I wasn't toying with it any more, I was planning it instead.

[RedImperator]

the ancient dead guys were cool largely because it was interesting watching them adjust to the modern world.

Yeah, except we've already got a story about an epic war between humans and the entire Judeo-Christian pantheon. This is why the story is dragging to begin with--you have all these tangents which might be conceptually interesting but are incidental to the main plot. "Ye-Olde-What's-His-Face Learns About Guns and Television" is a short story, novella, or full-length novel on its own.

The demon possession was a stretch, but believable, and the heaven keeping tabs wasn't too hard to swallow (Heaven and Hell hate each other, and Yahweh is an arrogant douche.)

I was willing to accept the possession without trouble, and I was even capable of swallowing my disbelief when it turned out demons possessed mass-murderers but somehow Hell never learned about guns. But when it turned out Heaven was watching Earth the whole time, that put a torpedo through it. In the last hundred-fifty years nobody in Hell thought to take a look upstairs while Heaven was keeping track the whole time? Not even to keep tabs on what Yahweh might be doing? Come on.

Michael, is in my opinion, a great villian. Evil, yet charming at the same time

So was Tony Soprano. That wasn't my point. My point was that Michael is an ancient and powerful being, who in this story can play God himself like a fiddle, and what's his role? What are his motivations? Answer: he's a two-bit gangster.

[Ford Prefect]

Honestly, the idea of Michael being a drug dealer, of all things, strikes me as being purely to 'discredit' Heaven as a really serious threat. The angels are all junkies? Are you fucking kidding me?

[Junghalli]

I found early on that, like Destructionator, I ended up rooting for the Demons and Angels instead of the humans. Like when Uriel attacks someplace part of me is actually cheering him on and going "go man, kill everybody, make them bleed!" The whole thing is just so predictable, it's just so obvious the humans are going to win, that I want to see them get bloodied. And I mean really bloodied, not just Belial killing some few tens of thousands of random people with a sky volcano, but, like, an actual strategically significant defeat for us. I'd just love to have something happen to suggest that maybe, just maybe, the good guys' total victory isn't completely inevitable. As it is, it's just so obvious the bad guys stand no chance that I can't work up much enthusiasm for cheering on at what is obviously a slaughter in which the outcome is never actually in doubt.

Personally I find it interesting to compare Armageddon to A Dystopic Return of Magic, as it's got a similar premise (evil mythical beings return to Earth to find humans are now not as helpless as they expected thanks to technology), but actually manages to pull it off right. The villains are genuinely scary and even though you have a sense of inevitable human victory the villains are still capable of doing real damage and inflicting horrible suffering on humanity so you actually have an emotional investment in how the battles turn out, and you have characters that you really care about and you feel really bad about them when they die in shitty ways, and they actually do die in shitty ways (pretty much no character you actually care about dies in Armageddon - except in the sense they die and just respawn in Hell like a video game character). When the Fey in that story attack some place I have real emotional investment in wanting them to lose and not wanting them to be able to inflict their horrible tortures on the helpless inhabitants. When someplace in Armageddon gets attacked by Demons or Angels my response is "meh, Bronze Age throwbacks attacking someplace, may be allowed to do token damage and kill a few people (who will probably just respawn like video game characters so no big deal), sure to get their asses kicked up between their shoulders, more at 5:30." Now, I'm not saying the situation in Armageddon has to be as grimdark as the one in that story*, but an actual sense that we really are under threat would be nice.

* Although if you think about it the basic premise of Armageddon is pretty goddamn grimdark. You don't really feel it in the story (one of the many examples of what I'm talking about), but if you think about it, it means almost everybody who ever died got to look forward to being tortured in Hell, in most cases probably after a life on Earth that was fairly lousy already. Sure, they eventually will all be rescued when Hell is liberated ... after anywhere from years to millenia of constant horrible torture (maybe even millions of years if pre-human hominids went to Hell, which is implied at one point). Holy moley is that a downer to contemplate.

Speaking of which, part of it may be the author of A Dystopic Return of Magic is way better at making the horrible tortures inflicted on the villains' victims sound actually scary. Reading Armageddon the torments of Hell seem to be about as easy to recover from as a hangover. People get their extremities melted off in boiling oil and then afterward they seem to be just fine, with no indications of being the PTSD-riddled haunted men who scream in their sleep that you'd think would actually come out of an experience like that. If Stuart was only as good at making Hell seem awful as RTCFI is at making being captured by the Fey seem awful, changing nothing else, Armageddon would have gotten much more emotional investment from me.

Of course I forgot it's supposed to be a character-focused mockumentary so all these complaints are missing the point. This excuse reasoning would carry more weight with me if I actually had a sense that characters I cared about were in real danger. You get a little of that in the beginning of Armageddon but once Hell ceases to be a place where your ass will bleed it pretty much disappears completely. Like I said, when it comes to characters I actually care about it I can't remember a single one that actually died (as in, died died, not died and got to respawn big deal), and while a handful of them had horrible things happen to them in Hell the author is bad at impressing on us the horror they've actually gone through so it turns out sort of meh, big deal.

Honestly, the idea of Michael being a drug dealer, of all things, strikes me as being purely to 'discredit' Heaven as a really serious threat. The angels are all junkies? Are you fucking kidding me?

Like much of Armageddon/Pantheocide the idea that the Angels in Heaven are turning to drugs, alcohol, and other deadening sensual indulgence to escape the fact that Heaven is actually a repressive shithole is (IMO) really interesting in concept. The problem is the execution is not very good. That's pretty much the problem with the whole story. Virtually everything in Armageddon and Pantheocide would sound awesome in a synopsis, the problem is in the translation from idea to fully fleshed out story.

[RogueIce]

As I recall, the story came from some RAR about God proving he existed. The story came from there, after everyone was all SCIENCE in that thread.

And let's face it: this is a fanfic that was generated on SDNet by a SDNet thread. Anyone who thought there would be a different outcome than 'humanity and SCIENCE (key word) beat those silly fundies angels and demons' hasn't been here long enough.

I haven't actually read it myself, though. Mostly because I already knew how it was going to go, just based on that initial thread, ie: SCIENCE trumps silly religious mystical powers.