US presses Israel to limit settlement-building

[Vastatosaurus Rex]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8569406.stm

US presses Israel over East Jerusalem settlement row

The US has said it is awaiting a "formal" response from Israel amid a row over its decision to build 1,600 new homes in occupied East Jerusalem.

Israel angered the US by announcing the move during a visit by Vice-President Joe Biden aimed at backing peace talks.

US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton last week asked Israel to show it was committed to Middle East peace efforts.

But PM Benjamin Netanyahu rejected any limits on Jewish building in Jerusalem and has yet to respond to US concerns.

Speaking to Israel's parliament, the Knesset, Mr Netanyahu said he wanted peace negotiations, and hoped the Palestinians would not present "new preconditions" for talks.

"No government in the past 40 years has limited construction in neighbourhoods of Jerusalem," he said.

"Building these Jewish neighbourhoods in Jerusalem does not hurt the Arabs of East Jerusalem or come at their expense."

Palestinian leaders say indirect peace talks with Israel that US mediators had worked to set up are now "doubtful".

US state department spokesman Philip Crowley said the plans for US Middle East envoy George Mitchell, who was due to fly to the region this week, were in flux.

He did not go into detail about the "specific concerns" Mrs Clinton had raised in a long phone call to Mr Netanyahu on Friday.

But he stressed that Israel was "a strategic ally of the US and will continue to be so".

Earlier on Monday, Israel's ambassador to the US, Michael Oren, was quoted by Israeli media as saying ties between the two countries were at their lowest point for 35 years, since 1975.

He reportedly told a conference call with Israeli consuls general in the US at the weekend that "the crisis was very serious and we are facing a very difficult period in relations".

US-Israeli relations were strained in 1975 by a demand from then US Secretary of State Henry Kissinger that Israel's Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin partially withdraw its troops from the Sinai Peninsula, where they had been since the 1967 Six-Day War.

Talks 'endangered'

The EU, as part of the Middle East Quartet, has already condemned Israel's decision to build new homes in East Jerusalem.

Speaking to Arab League members in Cairo on Monday, EU foreign policy head Baroness Ashton said the move had "endangered and undermined the tentative agreement to begin proximity talks".

She added: "The EU position on settlements is clear. Settlements are illegal, constitute an obstacle to peace and threaten to make a two state-solution impossible."

On Sunday, a top aide to US President Barack Obama said Israel's announcement of plans to build new homes in East Jerusalem during Mr Biden's visit was "destructive" to peace efforts and an "insult" to the US.

Just hours before the announcement, Mr Biden had emphasised how close relations were, saying there was "no space" between Israel and the US.

Under the Israeli plans, the new homes will be built in Ramat Shlomo in East Jerusalem.

The Palestinians are threatening to boycott newly agreed, indirect talks unless the Ramat Shlomo project is cancelled.

Close to 500,000 Jews live in more than 100 settlements built since Israel's 1967 occupation of the West Bank and East Jerusalem.

The settlements are considered illegal under international law, although Israel disputes this.

I wonder what the US is going to do if Israel continues with these settlements? I fear that the pressure we're placing on them may not be enough to get them to stop. Honestly, I think we may have to threaten military force or something similarly serious against these guys. They won't listen to reason.

[Vaporous]

I wonder what the US is going to do if Israel continues with these settlements?

Absolutely nothing.

Seriously, what leverage do we possess over the Israelis that we'd actually be willing or able to use? Are we going to cut off military aid? Obama would be crucified. In the press, I mean.

[Vastatosaurus Rex]

Absolutely nothing.

Seriously, what leverage do we possess over the Israelis that we'd actually be willing or able to use?

We have a vastly superior military, and regardless of what some pacifists might say, we should take advantage of that. The Israelis will not listen to rational arguments about how they shouldn't settle in Palestinian land or treat Palestinians like dirt. They only respect force, so we need to show them force. We need to get some balls and say to them, "If you don't stop being assholes, we'll fucking bomb you back to the Bronze Age!" That should scare them into submission.

[Darth Wong]

Don't be ridiculous. You can't bomb ethnicities which have not been designated as evil by American TV. Even white apartheid South Africa never faced the threat of military attack from the West.

The US could hypothetically stop sending them billions of dollars in aid every year, but that will never happen either, for four reasons:

1) The hard-line fundamentalist "Amen Chorus" in America will crucify any politician who tries to stop it, because Israel is necessary for the Rapture.

2) The hard-line Zionist Jewish lobby in America will crucify any politician who tries to stop it, because that's all they care about. Other issues fall by the wayside.

3) The "Mindless Middle" in America will be easily swayed to vote against any politician who tries to stop it, because it's the status quo, and the Mindless Middle is always inclined to support the status quo.

4) Israeli military aid is a dual-purpose program: it also serves to funnel taxpayer dollars to US military equipment suppliers. The government uses taxpayer money to pay the suppliers who profit handsomely, the equipment gets sent to Israel, and everyone is happy except for the taxpayers and the Palestinians. Any attempt to stop this process would bring about the usual resistance from regional corporate interests.

[hongi]

Close to 500,000 Jews live in more than 100 settlements built since Israel's 1967 occupation of the West Bank and East Jerusalem.

The settlements are considered illegal under international law, although Israel disputes this.

Why does Israel claim that the entirety of Jerusalem is their eternal capital? Because they annexed it? Because God gave it to them?

[The Kernel]

We have a vastly superior military, and regardless of what some pacifists might say, we should take advantage of that. The Israelis will not listen to rational arguments about how they shouldn't settle in Palestinian land or treat Palestinians like dirt. They only respect force, so we need to show them force. We need to get some balls and say to them, "If you don't stop being assholes, we'll fucking bomb you back to the Bronze Age!" That should scare them into submission.

And if everyone on the Earth just got along we wouldn't need guns or a military.

Seriously, are you really that naive? The political reality of the situation is that the US has very little direct leverage over Israel that is politically tenable for us to use, even if we were willing to go to bat for the Palestinians (which we aren't).

We couldn't even get sanctions past congress and you expect them to justify a military action against Israel? About the best we can do is issue strongly worded memos and sit back and watch.

[ShadowDragon8685]

Absolutely nothing.

Seriously, what leverage do we possess over the Israelis that we'd actually be willing or able to use?

We have a vastly superior military, and regardless of what some pacifists might say, we should take advantage of that. The Israelis will not listen to rational arguments about how they shouldn't settle in Palestinian land or treat Palestinians like dirt. They only respect force, so we need to show them force. We need to get some balls and say to them, "If you don't stop being assholes, we'll fucking bomb you back to the Bronze Age!" That should scare them into submission.

That wouldn't be a good idea.
The ME isn't going to like us even if we did bomb Isreal into the bronze age. On the other hand, it would really make the rest of our allies nervous as fuck as we'd apparently be psychopathic, treacherous morons not above using overt military force if our erstwhile allies fail to kowtow to us.

Not to mention the fact that actually attacking Israel would mean they'd feel no qualms about loosing the Mossad on us, and frankly those are some scary-ass motherfuckers. It's scary enough what they can do to the rest of the Middle East, when you'd think they'd look obviously out-of-place, imagine what they'd do here in retaliation.

On the other hand, Shep would be thrilled since it would certainly mean a nuclear discharge. After all, we gave them nukes in the first place; if we don't nuke them completely into a glass crater, you bet your ass they'd hoist us on our own petard.


tl;dr: that's fucking retarded!

[Guardsman Bass]

Close to 500,000 Jews live in more than 100 settlements built since Israel's 1967 occupation of the West Bank and East Jerusalem.

The settlements are considered illegal under international law, although Israel disputes this.

Why does Israel claim that the entirety of Jerusalem is their eternal capital? Because they annexed it? Because God gave it to them?

It plays a big role in the religious (and possibly not religious - one of the resident Israelis could probably explain it better) side of Jewish Zionism, and the neighborhoods with all the holy sites in Jerusalem (the "Old City", for example) are located in East Jerusalem (particularly the Western Wall, which is near the Al-Aqsa Mosque on the Temple Mount).

[Uraniun235]

I wonder what the US is going to do if Israel continues with these settlements? I fear that the pressure we're placing on them may not be enough to get them to stop. Honestly, I think we may have to threaten military force or something similarly serious against these guys. They won't listen to reason.

We don't have to threaten military force, we just have to stop giving them money. I remember being told George H.W. Bush accomplished this, despite Congress pitching a huge tantrum over it. We could also threaten to try to pass a resolution through the U.N., seeing as how we're usually one of the only nations to ever veto resolutions against the Israelis.


But we won't.

[eyl]

It plays a big role in the religious (and possibly not religious - one of the resident Israelis could probably explain it better) side of Jewish Zionism, and the neighborhoods with all the holy sites in Jerusalem (the "Old City", for example) are located in East Jerusalem (particularly the Western Wall, which is near the Al-Aqsa Mosque on the Temple Mount).

Short answer - religious significance because it contains Judaism's primary holy sites.

Slightly longer answer - due to the religious significance over the millennia, Jerusalem is important symbolically to secular Zionists as well (though a fair amount of the latter would be willing to divide the city or at least come to some sort of shared compromise over its Eastern part).

As a complicating factor, even for some Israelis who support the two-state solution East Jerusalem is one of the areas where it's more acceptable to build, because it had a sizable Jewish presence until 1948 (the most recent brouhah is about the restoration of the Hurva ("ruin") synagouge, which was destroyed by the Jordanians and marked the end of the siege of East Jerusalem's Jewish population until 1967). In addition, pretty much all the proposals for a two-state solution which have been advanced (including those drafted in accordance with Palestinians) have portions of the Jewish neighborhoods of East Jerusalem being annexed to Israel in exchange for other land (the other major place where this happens is Gush Etzion, which also had a Jewish presence until 1948) - many of the neighborhoods where building occurs fall into that category.

Nevertheless, a lot of the building shouldn't occur, and it most certainly shouldn't occur now.

[PeZook]

Not to mention the fact that actually attacking Israel would mean they'd feel no qualms about loosing the Mossad on us, and frankly those are some scary-ass motherfuckers. It's scary enough what they can do to the rest of the Middle East, when you'd think they'd look obviously out-of-place, imagine what they'd do here in retaliation.

And what terrible things did they do, exactly, to the rest of the Middle East that makes them such scary-ass motherfuckers?

There are many good reasons: political, humanitarian and diplomatic why the US won't attack Israel, but OMG THEY WILL HAVE THE MOSSAD KILL US ALL really isn't one of them

[Ritterin Sophia]

Absolutely nothing.

Seriously, what leverage do we possess over the Israelis that we'd actually be willing or able to use?

We have a vastly superior military, and regardless of what some pacifists might say, we should take advantage of that. The Israelis will not listen to rational arguments about how they shouldn't settle in Palestinian land or treat Palestinians like dirt. They only respect force, so we need to show them force. We need to get some balls and say to them, "If you don't stop being assholes, we'll fucking bomb you back to the Bronze Age!" That should scare them into submission.

As much as I would love to see Israel piss their pants when we withdraw all our support or even leverage that support against them (I would love to see an American President say, "Hey Palestine, we realize the Israelis don't want to play ball in the peace talks. How about you stop trying to take all of the land of Israel-Palestine and we throw our support behind you?") it's not going to happen. The first thing that's going to happen to a president that does so is they're going to be slandered as a Nazi, then they're going to be condemned for alienating our 'allies' and the 'last bastion of the free world in the middle east' in favor of the brown peoplemuslims.

On the other hand, it would really make the rest of our allies nervous as fuck as we'd apparently be psychopathic, treacherous morons not above using overt military force if our erstwhile allies fail to kowtow to us.

Ummm... no. MostVirtually all of our allies think Israel is a cock that no one should give a shit about. They've betrayed us by selling off sensitive SAM system technologies to China during the Cold War, they buzzed not only the French peacekeeper headquarters multiple times after the Summer War but also a German destroyer sent to support them. They attacked a US ship. They continually strain all of the western worlds credibility by purposefully antagonizing the Muslims over and over again about a patch of dirt no one except insane zealots give a flying fuck about. The only reason anyone cares about Israel is because America makes such a big deal out of it and the only way it's going to stop is if Israel and it's surrounding nations are turned into a multikilometer artificial sea.

Not to mention the fact that actually attacking Israel would mean they'd feel no qualms about loosing the Mossad on us, and frankly those are some scary-ass motherfuckers. It's scary enough what they can do to the rest of the Middle East, when you'd think they'd look obviously out-of-place, imagine what they'd do here in retaliation.

Imagine what the country with the largest nuclear, biological, and chemical weapons stockpiles would do in retaliation to that.

[ShadowDragon8685]

It's hard to do something in retaliation when someone else is enacting the "mutually" part of "Mutually assured destruction" - IE, in response to an overt attack on Isreal, Isreal woul decide it's game over and decide to do anything and everything within their power to retaliate - such as smuggling some of those nukes we gave them into New York or Washington.

Forget Al Queda with their "looking into" a dirty bomb shit, these people have actual nukes that we gave them.

[bobalot]

America will never do anything to Israel, because America is Israel's bitch. That's why they don't really give a shit if they humiliate/insult any American administration, because like a little bitch the American government won't do anything about it.

They will probably announce more settlements soon, just to give the United States and Obama the middle finger while holding out the other hand for a handout.

[PeZook]

It's hard to do something in retaliation when someone else is enacting the "mutually" part of "Mutually assured destruction" - IE, in response to an overt attack on Isreal, Isreal woul decide it's game over and decide to do anything and everything within their power to retaliate - such as smuggling some of those nukes we gave them into New York or Washington.

Yes, because all military options start with nukes and go up from there.

By nuking an American city, Israel raises the stakes up into WMD territorry, throws away international sympathy and closes all their political options - like surrender, which allows Israel to survive as a nation, if under American occupation. That's what Schatten meant: whatever you say about Israel, their government is not insane. They want to survive.

[Ritterin Sophia]

It's hard to do something in retaliation when someone else is enacting the "mutually" part of "Mutually assured destruction" - IE, in response to an overt attack on Isreal, Isreal woul decide it's game over and decide to do anything and everything within their power to retaliate - such as smuggling some of those nukes we gave them into New York or Washington.

You're a fucking idiot. MAD is not tit for tat, it's if one of us fires at all we're firing enough to wipe the other out. ISRAEL DOES NOT HAVE THE CAPACITY TO DO THIS.

Forget Al Queda with their "looking into" a dirty bomb shit, these people have actual nukes that we gave them.

First of all good luck in that endeavor, two congratulations on destroying New York. Yeah, it's a disastrous loss of life and a mournful event, but our reaction will not be a measured one. In the event of such an attack on American citizens by Israel seven million Israelis are going to die in return. You would also have galvanized every NATO nation to support ally with Israel's Muslim neighbors against it and totally destroying all sympathy in America towards Israelis except for the most devout religioconservative zealots who will be seen as traitors by all others.

[ShadowDragon8685]

It's hard to do something in retaliation when someone else is enacting the "mutually" part of "Mutually assured destruction" - IE, in response to an overt attack on Isreal, Isreal woul decide it's game over and decide to do anything and everything within their power to retaliate - such as smuggling some of those nukes we gave them into New York or Washington.

You're a fucking idiot. MAD is not tit for tat, it's if one of us fires at all we're firing enough to wipe the other out. ISRAEL DOES NOT HAVE THE CAPACITY TO DO THIS.

Do you want to play that game with the lives of millions of Americans hanging in the balance? It's not a matter of "winning", because even after the reckoning comes, it will be undeniable that we provoked them by attempting to, quote, "bomb them back into the bronze age."

Forget Al Queda with their "looking into" a dirty bomb shit, these people have actual nukes that we gave them.

First of all good luck in that endeavor, two congratulations on destroying New York. Yeah, it's a disastrous loss of life and a mournful event, but our reaction will not be a measured one. In the event of such an attack on American citizens by Israel seven million Israelis are going to die in return. You would also have galvanized every NATO nation to support ally with Israel's Muslim neighbors against it and totally destroying all sympathy in America towards Israelis except for the most devout religioconservative zealots who will be seen as traitors by all others.

More like a feeling of "a pox upon both their houses." NATO wouldn't do jack shit since it only requires NATO member nations to defend their fellows from an unprovoked attack (like 9/11,) not from getting the heavy end of the hammer dropped on them in retaliation to an unprovoked attack that they launched.

NATO was obliged to follow us into Shitcanistan, they were not obliged to follow us into Asscrack.

[Ritterin Sophia]

Do you want to play that game with the lives of millions of Americans hanging in the balance? It's not a matter of "winning", because even after the reckoning comes, it will be undeniable that we provoked them by attempting to, quote, "bomb them back into the bronze age."

It won't be seen that way to the rest of the world. Israel will be seen as purposefully antagonizing and exacerbating any hope of peace in the Middle East, AS THEY ALREADY FUCKING ARE. Most nations, understandably, don't like Israel and in such a scenario they will by default be operating without any sympathy from any nations that matter. America conversely would be seen as trying their best to solve a problem they helped start, especially if they can get the likes of the Palestinians to agree to an Israel-Palestine nation in exchange for their support in taking over Israel.

More like a feeling of "a pox upon both their houses." NATO wouldn't do jack shit since it only requires NATO member nations to defend their fellows from an unprovoked attack (like 9/11,) not from getting the heavy end of the hammer dropped on them in retaliation to an unprovoked attack that they launched.

NATO was obliged to follow us into Shitcanistan, they were not obliged to follow us into Asscrack.

No one said obliged you fucking strawmanning idiot, I said Galvanized. Israel is already the social pariah of the Free WorldTM

[hongi]

Short answer - religious significance because it contains Judaism's primary holy sites.

Slightly longer answer - due to the religious significance over the millennia, Jerusalem is important symbolically to secular Zionists as well (though a fair amount of the latter would be willing to divide the city or at least come to some sort of shared compromise over its Eastern part).

Okay, that I understand...but how do they justify keeping it, when it wasn't part of Israel until the annexation? Surely they can't rely on just religious reasons, since the other side also has religious reasons e.g. Jerusalem will be the future capital of the Islamic Caliphate allahu akbar!

You know much more about this than me, but does Israel allow Arab settlements to be built in West Jerusalem too?

[Ritterin Sophia]

Sorry that should read as.

NATO was obliged to follow us into Shitcanistan, they were not obliged to follow us into Asscrack.

No one said obliged you fucking strawmanning idiot, I said 'galvanized', you think the people of the UK, France, Germany are going to sit idly by when Israel is committing terrorist acts using nuclear devices in civilian centers? Israel is already the social pariah of the Free WorldTM

But I messed up.

[ShadowDragon8685]

Frankly, nobody likes the U.S. either, when they start bombing people unprovoked.

As I said, it would be a feeling of "a pox 'pon both their houses." Bombing Isreal into the bronze age would nessessarily require bombing the shit out of their military and security forces and their infrastructure, which would be immediately followed by waves of violence against Isreal capitalizing on their weakness. Facing the utter destruction of their state by a supposed ally, you'd have backed them into a corner.

Frankly, at that point, nobody would give a toss if they nuked New York, since the U.S. will have proven itself an utterly unstable psychopath of a country perfectly willing to bomb and invade anybody, even their best friends, if they don't tow the line. If anything, France, Germany, the UK, etcetera, would all start refocusing their MAD strategies on the US instead of Russia.

[hunter5]

I wonder what the US is going to do if Israel continues with these settlements? I fear that the pressure we're placing on them may not be enough to get them to stop. Honestly, I think we may have to threaten military force or something similarly serious against these guys. They won't listen to reason.

We don't have to threaten military force, we just have to stop giving them money. I remember being told George H.W. Bush accomplished this, despite Congress pitching a huge tantrum over it. We could also threaten to try to pass a resolution through the U.N., seeing as how we're usually one of the only nations to ever veto resolutions against the Israelis.


But we won't.

No one is scared by UN resolutions as 9 times out of ten the UN doesn't bother to enforce them.

[Tiriol]

I wonder what the US is going to do if Israel continues with these settlements? I fear that the pressure we're placing on them may not be enough to get them to stop. Honestly, I think we may have to threaten military force or something similarly serious against these guys. They won't listen to reason.

We don't have to threaten military force, we just have to stop giving them money. I remember being told George H.W. Bush accomplished this, despite Congress pitching a huge tantrum over it. We could also threaten to try to pass a resolution through the U.N., seeing as how we're usually one of the only nations to ever veto resolutions against the Israelis.


But we won't.

No one is scared by UN resolutions as 9 times out of ten the UN doesn't bother to enforce them.

This is more a fault of the UN's constituents, meaning the various countries who make up the UN: unless they are willing to give troops and material, the UN has nothing.

[Vendetta]

Short answer - religious significance because it contains Judaism's primary holy sites.

Slightly longer answer - due to the religious significance over the millennia, Jerusalem is important symbolically to secular Zionists as well (though a fair amount of the latter would be willing to divide the city or at least come to some sort of shared compromise over its Eastern part).

Okay, that I understand...but how do they justify keeping it, when it wasn't part of Israel until the annexation? Surely they can't rely on just religious reasons, since the other side also has religious reasons e.g. Jerusalem will be the future capital of the Islamic Caliphate allahu akbar!

You know much more about this than me, but does Israel allow Arab settlements to be built in West Jerusalem too?

They don't justify keeping it. They do what the fuck they please because they know that no consequences will arise.

[Tanasinn]

For as long as Muslims in general and Arabs in particular are associated with violence on Americans, people here will support Israel solely because they're cutting their numbers down. Attempts to slap Israel's hand will go nowhere, which I suppose makes Israel the only U.S. ally that more cretinous Americans aren't anxious to assert their dominance over.