Meet the Unemployable Man

[Stravo]

News

The linked article has some very interesting statistical information regarding trend in employment and one of the biggest, surprise surprise, if you don't have an education you're even more screwed than ever. The job market is trending away from undereducated people even in staple industries like construction towards people with some level of higher education.

Also currently 1 in 5 men are unemployed in this country and the part that I saw coming a mile away is that many of the jobs lost for these men will not be replaced. Businesses are realizing how they can get the same amount of work done with fewer people and now they know they can get by without all those people they laid off. In other words industries were inefficient and now they are - sans a few million workers.

Additionally is the intertesting observation by some that they did not believe the American economy can continue to support the influx of new workers it gets every year. There just aren't enough jobs out there for the people in the job market. That tends to happen, in my opinion, when you send jobs overseas and get rid of factories. Where are all these people going to work? On Wall Street selling derivatives? No, there is going to be a giant (too late) wakeup call for the average American soon when they realized just how fucked they are thanks to deregulation and racing towards the bottom in terms of wages and other things to help businesses "grow"

Seeds planted during the Reagan revolution are yielding bitter fruit indeed.

[Themightytom]

Isn't this the purpose of investing in manpower intensive green energy infrastructure development?

Also we have a bit of relief because the Idiot Greatest generation is quite elderly and needs medical care. Last time I checked elder medical services was a 50% growth industry, same with supportive services for the mentally ill and the cognitively impaired.

[Stravo]

Isn't this the purpose of investing in manpower intensive green energy infrastructure development?

Also we have a bit of relief because the Idiot Greatest generation is quite elderly and needs medical care. Last time I checked elder medical services was a 50% growth industry, same with supportive services for the mentally ill and the cognitively impaired.

You need higher education with some of these medical jobs, an education that some men, especially minority men cannot afford. The same with green jobs. You can't give a black or hispanic kid with a GED a job in these industries and the ones you can give them aren't going to cover all the ones that are out there. The graduation rate in NYC Public schools alone is @50% so that's a lot of kids out there every year that are undereducated and fucked in the new economy.

And with the chokehold that industry has on this country's political establishment I wouldn't hold my breath on the explosion of green jobs just yet.

[Alphawolf55]

Isn't this the purpose of investing in manpower intensive green energy infrastructure development?

Also we have a bit of relief because the Idiot Greatest generation is quite elderly and needs medical care. Last time I checked elder medical services was a 50% growth industry, same with supportive services for the mentally ill and the cognitively impaired.

Makes me consider taking my brother's advice and being a Social Worker for the disabled.

But yeah I've been saying forever that this idea that there are enough jobs for everyone is bullshit and it needs to be openly acknowledged that not everyone can have a job in today's world.

[Darth Wong]

You need higher education with some of these medical jobs, an education that some men, especially minority men cannot afford.

Millions of asian and indian men would probably disagree with you since their parents would gladly move Heaven and Earth to put them through med school. However, I know what you mean: in America, "minority" usually means "black or Mexican".

The same with green jobs. You can't give a black or hispanic kid with a GED a job in these industries and the ones you can give them aren't going to cover all the ones that are out there. The graduation rate in NYC Public schools alone is @50% so that's a lot of kids out there every year that are undereducated and fucked in the new economy.

Whoa, 50% flunk rates? That's breathtaking. No wonder there are so many damned meth dealers.

And with the chokehold that industry has on this country's political establishment I wouldn't hold my breath on the explosion of green jobs just yet.

Honestly, I see a bleak future for a lot of people in this young generation, and to be honest, I don't have the energy to try and change that. Let others tilt at windmills and try to change the world; I just want to try and ensure that my own kids won't end up in the losers category.

[Alphawolf55]

Meh, I'm one of these "Young generation" people. I don't know if I'm tilting at windmills but my goal isn't to make sure that everyone has a job or even a well paying one but just to make sure everyone has the basic needs of food, shelter and healthcare.

[Liberty]

Also we have a bit of relief because the Idiot Greatest generation is quite elderly and needs medical care. Last time I checked elder medical services was a 50% growth industry, same with supportive services for the mentally ill and the cognitively impaired.

You need higher education with some of these medical jobs, an education that some men, especially minority men cannot afford.

Surlethe's grandparents have round the clock help that comes to their condo. Every time they go over there, there's a woman washing the dishes, or helping one of them into or out of a chair. They're both around 90 and in very frail health. I wouldn't imagine that this sort of job would require a lot of education, probably just some training program after they're hired. I may be wrong.

Are we possibly going to be seeing more people going back to school as adults?

Also, I'm going for my Ph.D., and by the time I'm done I will have been in school for 10+ years. I have to point out, though, that education is not the only answer. A Ph.D. in history is not going to be kind to me in this job market. Instead, it's education in practical fields, especially medical fields, that is crucial. I have an acquaintance who just graduated with her B.A. in English. Totally useless. Her parents offered to pay for her master's degree if she gets it in something useful, so she's now going for a master's degree in library science (i.e., to be a librarian). That kind of illustrates what I mean.

[Themightytom]

You need higher education with some of these medical jobs, an education that some men, especially minority men cannot afford.

"Some" but the vast majority are entry level care personnel, PCA courses run about $500, a six week LNA course through the red cross will run you about $1400 including buying scrubs shoes gait belt (leash) blood pressure cuff etc. You can shave that to 1200 in a pinch and there are a lot of agencies that either pay for the courses or Charitable foundations, nonprofits or granters that will pay if you bother to fill out a form.

You don't actually even NEED any education to be a home care provider and again a lot of the staffing agencies that organize that also do LNAs.

The same with green jobs. You can't give a black or hispanic kid with a GED a job in these industries and the ones you can give them aren't going to cover all the ones that are out there. The graduation rate in NYC Public schools alone is @50% so that's a lot of kids out there every year that are undereducated and fucked in the new economy.

Um a black kid with a GED can screw a solar panel to a roof, I've seen it. Those kids can also machine tech or assemble solar panels or wind turbine parts too. They can also drive the trucks full of parts from factory to dealer or from outlet to customer, same as a moving company. These are areas where minorities already find work anyway.

And with the chokehold that industry has on this country's political establishment I wouldn't hold my breath on the explosion of green jobs just yet.

I agree with this at the moment, especially in New England where we have a dim beady little sun, ever changing winds and a LOT of granite between us and any geothermal options, but the more green energy is marketed to the public the greater the demand will be, and as the infrastructure improves and prices go down the more likely it is to permeate into the mainstream.

I have a friend who abandoned his IT to start a green company like the day after Obama got elected thinking it would be the next dot com, and... er... he now picks up food every week from us and works at Lowes running his business on the side. That was seriously a stupid move on his part, but he does a good chunk of consultation work assessing homes for energy efficiency and conveniently being in a position to make a commission on the products he recommends. That kind of incremental redistribution can't be bad for the economy, rather than forking over to utility providers exclusively. The problem becomes a lot of the energy saving products CAN be made manufactured overseas so its only a matter of time before intrepid American green company owners start trying to accomplish the ideal combination of less work + more profit that leads to long term job loss.

[Themightytom]

I wouldn't imagine that this sort of job would require a lot of education, probably just some training program after they're hired. I may be wrong.

You're not, all you really need for those types off work is to have a criminal record free of violent crimes.

Are we possibly going to be seeing more people going back to school as adults?

I've had waves of clients coming asking for help getting into hair academies lately, I have a suspicion that "education" is becoming a for profit, and very muddy environment.

Incidentally I direct applicants to do industry research, and then... teach them how to do it (Contact people doing the jobs you want and interview them, look up industry growth estimates on Department of labor sites etc...) More often than not they were talked into their enthusiasm by an admissions "counselor" and don't have the passion for whatever field they are looking at, and can't justify investing the time and money. Same with helicopter schools.

Also, I'm going for my Ph.D., and by the time I'm done I will have been in school for 10+ years. I have to point out, though, that education is not the only answer. A Ph.D. in history is not going to be kind to me in this job market. Instead, it's education in practical fields, especially medical fields, that is crucial. I have an acquaintance who just graduated with her B.A. in English. Totally useless. Her parents offered to pay for her master's degree if she gets it in something useful, so she's now going for a master's degree in library science (i.e., to be a librarian). That kind of illustrates what I mean.

I see ads for librarians all the time and they are always looking for an MA in library sciences, and I can't for the life of me figure out What The Hell They learn in such a program that is so exclusive?

PhD in history = faculty job, and as history is usually a prereq for an accredited school that won't be so bad. For profit schools like hesser try to rope people in with vocational degree or certification programs, and make them stay for a bachelors. That's something to consider too, nontraditional students have beens steadily growing and the support infrastructure for them, while not as extensive or elaborate as traditional resident students could still be a growth industry.

[General Zod]

I see ads for librarians all the time and they are always looking for an MA in library sciences, and I can't for the life of me figure out What The Hell They learn in such a program that is so exclusive?

I see this all the time whenever I entertain the notion of looking for a different job. Openings for positions that should require just a bit of on the job training to acclimate yourself to the environment and barely pay above a livable wage are demanding degrees before they'll even consider looking at you. I'd have to poke around again for specific examples, but all you have to do is browse through Craigslist postings for any major city. It's absurd.

[Broomstick]

Many of the in-demand jobs in healthcare are for things like home health aids, or housekeepers, which the "greatest generation" will need more and more, creating steady demand, and while those jobs don't require much education they also pay shit for wages and typically have no benefits until you get at least a Licensed Practical Nurse degree. And, oh yeah, not too many white-bread frail 80 year old ladies are going to want an undereducated minority male twice their size and three times their weight taking care of them. The little old ladies will be in fear of rape and abuse and you can't attribute all of that to simple racial prejudice. A hefty dose is size differential and men being more prone to violence as well as lingering bigotry. So while there are definite opportunities there for women the job market for men in that line of work is not so good.

Go back to school? Great idea! Who is going to pay for that?

As for grunt labor like screwing solar panels to a roof - hate to break it to you, but contractors looking for labor like that want people smart enough not to fall off the roof, trash gutters, or shoot themselves in the foot with a nailgun. A lot of displaced college-educated sorts (such as myself - I do speak from experience here) are taking those jobs because 1) they are desperate, and 2) they have a work ethic that a high school drop out drifting through life usually doesn't have

[Alphawolf55]

Librarians can actually make pretty good money. But yeah even my friend who wants to be a librarian can't answer why the degree is so needed.

[Drooling Iguana]

Am I the only one who sees something fundamentally wrong with a society where the absence of available labour is considered a critical resource to be conserved?

[Alyrium Denryle]

PhD in history = faculty job, and as history is usually a prereq for an accredited school that won't be so bad. For profit schools like hesser try to rope people in with vocational degree or certification programs, and make them stay for a bachelors. That's something to consider too, nontraditional students have beens steadily growing and the support infrastructure for them, while not as extensive or elaborate as traditional resident students could still be a growth industry.

No. The academic environment is insane these days. Even in the sciences. Competition is so high that you can look for 2 years post PhD for a faculty position. Even then, getting grant funding is a bitch. If I apply for an NSF grant these days, depending on year my chance of being funded is 5-12%. If I dont get a certain (large) amount of money I dont get tenure. Hell, even if I do the Provost of the university may decide to flex muscle. Because state schools are being defunded due to budget cuts (first thing to go is always education), the universities are kept afloat on the overhead (they get 50% of your grant) from research grants brought in by the sciences.

[Simon_Jester]

Am I the only one who sees something fundamentally wrong with a society where the absence of available labour is considered a critical resource to be conserved?

Huh? I'm not sure I see what you're saying.

I see this all the time whenever I entertain the notion of looking for a different job. Openings for positions that should require just a bit of on the job training to acclimate yourself to the environment and barely pay above a livable wage are demanding degrees before they'll even consider looking at you. I'd have to poke around again for specific examples, but all you have to do is browse through Craigslist postings for any major city. It's absurd.

They might be using it just to screen out unreliable applicants. If you want thorough, meticulous people who will spend several hours a day tidying up books... you need a way to select for such people. If you can't do it at the job interview, forcing them to jump through educational hoops to prove their commitment might be a tempting option.

[General Zod]

They might be using it just to screen out unreliable applicants. If you want thorough, meticulous people who will spend several hours a day tidying up books... you need a way to select for such people. If you can't do it at the job interview, forcing them to jump through educational hoops to prove their commitment might be a tempting option.

A degree that costs several thousand dollars and at least four years to earn shouldn't be a barrier to entry for a job that barely pays enough to make the rent.

[Alphawolf55]

40-60,000 with benefits included is considered barely enough to make the rent?

[Simon_Jester]

Re: Zod
You're right, it shouldn't. I don't think it's a good idea; I just think they're doing it that way.

[AMT]

40-60,000 with benefits included is considered barely enough to make the rent?

Seeing as how there are many jobs that pay closer to 20-30 k a year that require you to have a degree, and based on the post he was quoting, I would assume he was speaking of those types of jobs.

20,000 or 30,000 isn't that much if one has to take care of family expenses, rent, insurance, gas, bills, and kids, especially if compounded with student loans.

[General Zod]

40-60,000 with benefits included is considered barely enough to make the rent?

Seeing as how there are many jobs that pay closer to 20-30 k a year that require you to have a degree, and based on the post he was quoting, I would assume he was speaking of those types of jobs.

20,000 or 30,000 isn't that much if one has to take care of family expenses, rent, insurance, gas, bills, and kids, especially if compounded with student loans.

Exactly. Especially in places like NYC where the costs of rent are obscene.

[Alphawolf55]

40-60,000 with benefits included is considered barely enough to make the rent?

Seeing as how there are many jobs that pay closer to 20-30 k a year that require you to have a degree, and based on the post he was quoting, I would assume he was speaking of those types of jobs.

20,000 or 30,000 isn't that much if one has to take care of family expenses, rent, insurance, gas, bills, and kids, especially if compounded with student loans.

Exactly. Especially in places like NYC where the costs of rent are obscene.

Honestly, that's mostly Manhattan. You can get reasonably priced placed in Brooklyn and Queens.

[Darth Wong]

40-60,000 with benefits included is considered barely enough to make the rent?

Seeing as how there are many jobs that pay closer to 20-30 k a year that require you to have a degree, and based on the post he was quoting, I would assume he was speaking of those types of jobs.

20,000 or 30,000 isn't that much if one has to take care of family expenses, rent, insurance, gas, bills, and kids, especially if compounded with student loans.

Exactly. Especially in places like NYC where the costs of rent are obscene.

Why the hell would someone try to live in NYC on a moderate income?

[Dalton]

Why the hell would someone try to live in NYC on a moderate income?

Convenience and commute, just to name a couple. Of course, you'll probably be either living in a closet or sharing a place with six of your closest friends if you don't want to live in the outer boroughs (keep in mind there is a BIG difference between living in Manhattan and living in Brooklyn/Queens/etc.).

[General Zod]

Why the hell would someone try to live in NYC on a moderate income?

Not really a hard choice to make if you were born there and can't afford to move anywhere else.

[Darth Wong]

Why the hell would someone try to live in NYC on a moderate income?

Not really a hard choice to make if you were born there and can't afford to move anywhere else.

If your rent is absurdly high, then you can't afford not to move somewhere else. And given the fact that so many people commute to NYC from outside the city, you can't say that you're forced to live there because of work.