Other States Following Arizona's lead

[Stravo]

News

Whether you agree with Arizona's laws or you don't there is one thing that is becoming painfully clear. The Republicans have themselves an issue that clearly shows a lack of leadership from Washington. People are concerned about illegal immigration - partly based on fears dredged up about terrorism and partly because of cirminal acitivity spikes going on in the border states which tends to happen when drug cartels run the show in some areas south of the border.

Washington needs to start reacting or you bet there will be snow ball effect and you'll have a few more states following suit before mid term elections. I have seen a whole lot of negative backlash to the Arizona measure in other states like NY and California but does anyone have any poll numbers for the border states? I'm willing to bet if the Republicans are running with this one that they have some pretty good solid numbers backing this move.

Illegal Immigration is a serious issue, been on my mind for some time. I don't think walls need to be built or we need to mine the borders but this blind eye we've been turning to our borders is a very real concern and Washington has done nothing for quite some time and it's not just Obamma, this is a Bush legacy issue as well.

[Tsyroc]

I haven't seen any solid poll numbers but I thought that I saw just a slight edge for more people being in favor of the Arizona law nationwide. It was something like 51% supported it and 49% against.

Since I live in Arizona I've been reading a lot more articles and the accompanying comments about this law than I normally would. I've been rather surprised that there seem to be more people supporting what Arizona is doing than I thought there would be. AOL (which tends towards being conservative) has a lot of people supporting this law, while on CNN there were more people against it. Surprisingly, the subject has been coming up on sports web sites too because of boycotts and calls to boycott sports teams etc... Even on those I was surprised by the number of people who have been supportive of the law. Along those lines I'm not sure if the Phoenix Suns helped themselves much with the "Los Suns" jerseys. I think the jerseys were a decent gesture but they should have said that they did it in support of their Hispanic fans and not as a protest for the law. It would have hedged their bets better and not pissed off people who are adamantly for this law. It'll probably end up not mattering much one way or another since sweeping the Spurs has already made most people forget about the Los Suns jerseys.

It'll be interesting to see what happens after the initial furor (knee jerk spazziness IMO) dies down and people actually read the law and notice that all Arizona is doing is making it legal and a requirement that it's local law enforcement officials enforce a law that follows the same standards that federal law already sets. Previously, state and local officials were not permitted to do anything related to immigration status as far as I know. Of course from what I've heard that didn't stop Joe Arpaio in Maricopa County but luckily I don't live there.

Assuming that this law ever goes into effect it will be interesting to see 1) How it impacts illegal immigration, and 2) Whether it really can be implemented in such a way that it'll be tough to show that it is being abused along racial lines.

[Kanastrous]

I've been thinking that I'd prefer to see this handled by the individual border states. It's de facto a state problem and as long as their measures are in line with Federal regs I don't see much advantage to the policy being formed in Washington.

[Crossroads Inc.]

Speaking as another Arizona Native, I can state I see a LOT of support for the bill even by fairly Liberal friends here. The problem is A great deal of the people seem to be supporting the "Idea" of the bill, without realizing just how F*cked it makes their state in the eyes of the rest of the nation.

I talk to a lot of people who say they support the "Principle" of the bill. That illegal immigrants are ILLEGAL, that SOMETHING should be done after all! They obviously aren't racist, they like Latinos! But they shouldn't come here illegally... So they largely support the bill... Of course a bunch of them, after quite a bit of Discussion and going over just what they hell is actually IN the bill tend to get his "OHhhh," look on their face after they realize that this bill will:
A: not do ANYTHING to stop illegal immigrants, and
B: make Arizona look like a bunch of backward racist hicks to the rest of America.

By the by its funny the whole situation with the "Los Suns" business, they did that and half the state suddenly turned on them, there were close of "Boycott the Suns!" and "I Hope they loose!" Keep in mind at the time the Suns had started a 7game series with their Arch-Nemesis the Texas "Spurs"

Yesterday The Suns finished a 4game sweep of the Spurs and now everyone seems to have changed their tune,

[Kanastrous]

I think in order to make Arizonans look like 'backward racist hicks' one would have to deliberately misunderstand the content of the bill. I've read it through three times now and am having trouble finding anything objectionable, unless the reader is starting from the premise that anyone who wants in should be allowed in, no questions asked, and that the US does not have a right to enforce its border and immigration laws.

If identical language were on a ballot measure here in California, I would be inclined to vote in favor of it.

[Tsyroc]

Most of the "Arizonans are racists" stuff was strongest at the beginning when the law was first signed. Some people have backed off of that some while others haven't. There are certainly plenty of racists of all kinds in Arizona but I think we get an overly bad rap because of the Martin Luther King Day thing back in the 1990s.

Crossroads is correct that the law really doesn't do anything to help the problem except maybe as a scare tactic. I'd read some rumors that even though the law isn't in effect yet that there are already fewer illegals in Arizona and that California is getting more as people try to avoid Arizona.

I read an interview with Governor Jan Brewer about this law and one thing she brought up was the cost of all the illegals that are currently in Arizona jails and prisons, and how the federal government has refused or ignored requests for reimbursement for the cost of keeping those prisoners. Which then makes the current law stupid in the sense that now Arizona's law enforcement officials will be presumably arresting more illegals. What are they going to do with them? Do they get deported? Get turned over to the feds, or end up in Arizona's penal system?

Other than kicking the Federal government in the ass the only thing beneficial I can see from this law is that since Arizona is first it might work simply by driving illegals into the states which don't have a similar law. Even then I can't see that being anything more than a temporary fix at best.

[CaptainChewbacca]

I think they get deported. Its mostly a disincentive for illegals to come to Arizona, because if they're there to earn money and the law makes earning money much more difficult or impossible, they won't come there.

[Kanastrous]

Of course we *really* ought to be viciously prosecuting employers who hire illegal labor. That would dry up to lure of employment, but quick.

[Stravo]

Of course we *really* ought to be viciously prosecuting employers who hire illegal labor. That would dry up to lure of employment, but quick.

]

Can't agree with you more there. They are the ones truly responsible for the biggest economic incentive for the illegals to come here. When you hear that tired argument "Mexicans are doing the jobs most Americans don't want to do." that's just horseshit. Most Americans don't do those jobs because having a substantially cheaper labor force out there has priced them out of the market for those jobs. The presence of the illegal work force is a self fullfilling prophecy for working class Americans who won't work those jobs. If the illegal work force was not there a real working wage with some sort of benefits would be avaialble for jobs like landscapers, dishwashers, janitors, etc. But why should the employer offer that if they can get it for much cheaper?

[Kanastrous]

Yeah, that 'Americans won't this or that' business is maddening. If Americans get hungry enough, absent other options I bet most will take whatever job is necessary to avoid starvation, just like most anybody else.

I know that *I'd* prefer a low-paying job to going hungry (in fact it's a choice that I have made, in the past). It's tough to believe that most other people are really that different.

[Gil Hamilton]

I think that people in other states don't understand how the Arizona law came about or the context that it happened. Pennsylvania doesn't have groups of ranchers about to vigilante justice illegals who pop over the border to rob them. That's the big difference, the bill was short sighted and poorly phrased, but it was the product of the fact that the Arizona legislature was desperate to do something to demonstrate to people along the border that their government was attempting to deal with the situation. Combine this with genuine asshats and you get this bill.

The folks in PA are just trying to be hard, that's all. It's all political theatre.

[Molyneux]

I think in order to make Arizonans look like 'backward racist hicks' one would have to deliberately misunderstand the content of the bill. I've read it through three times now and am having trouble finding anything objectionable, unless the reader is starting from the premise that anyone who wants in should be allowed in, no questions asked, and that the US does not have a right to enforce its border and immigration laws.

If identical language were on a ballot measure here in California, I would be inclined to vote in favor of it.

Isn't this the same law that allows the police to arrest anyone they want who "looks suspicious" and doesn't have proof of citizenship on them?

[The Yosemite Bear]

Should we remind them of the law enforcement provisions of the 14th amendment and that they are signing up for life imprisionment?

[Tsyroc]

Isn't this the same law that allows the police to arrest anyone they want who "looks suspicious" and doesn't have proof of citizenship on them?

That's one of the ways the people who are up in arms about the law see it but it's written with the intent that if the police stop you for something legitimate they can inquire as to your immigration status. They aren't supposed to be stopping people solely to check for immigration status. The border patrol does do that, among other things, but most of the time sets up stops where they make everyone come through.

The Arizona law is no different than the federal law except it provides a legal reason for the local police to enforce federal law. People talk about the constitutionality of the law based on the idea that the law is targeting a specific race. What might be more effective is to challenge the law based on whether states can enforce their borders or if that is solely the purview of the federal government.

[Tsyroc]

Yeah, that 'Americans won't this or that' business is maddening. If Americans get hungry enough, absent other options I bet most will take whatever job is necessary to avoid starvation, just like most anybody else.

I know that *I'd* prefer a low-paying job to going hungry (in fact it's a choice that I have made, in the past). It's tough to believe that most other people are really that different.

On one of these threads someone mentioned an illegal they knew who was complaining about some employer being cheap because he only paid them $15 an hour cash instead of the $25 that someone else paid him.

Assuming that pay range is remotely correct I'm curious as to how much the difference in cost in paying those amounts to someone under the table and what the equivalent would be for an above board legal employee with all the taxes etc... that employers have to pay?

I would think that if they really wanted to it wouldn't take much work to figure out which businesses around here routinely hire undocumented aliens and bust them for it. The amount of work done divided by the of employees on the payroll = suspicious activity if it doesn't add up???

[Kanastrous]

My understanding - and I'm open to correction - is that the Federal law already requires that legally resident aliens furnish their identification upon request by authorities, anyway. So now state and local police have the authority to request the same documents that one is supposed to have handy, anyway. For anyone in compliance with the law, that doesn't sound particularly onerous. For people not in compliance with the law - well, then it's really a debate over whether or not one approves of the law.

[General Zod]

My understanding - and I'm open to correction - is that the Federal law already requires that legally resident aliens furnish their identification upon request by authorities, anyway. So now state and local police have the authority to request the same documents that one is supposed to have handy, anyway. For anyone in compliance with the law, that doesn't sound particularly onerous. For people not in compliance with the law - well, then it's really a debate over whether or not one approves of the law.

Until you run across instances like this anyway. http://coloradoindependent.com/52039/th ... ertificate

[Kanastrous]

On one of these threads someone mentioned an illegal they knew who was complaining about some employer being cheap because he only paid them $15 an hour cash instead of the $25 that someone else paid him.

Maybe I'm out of touch but for unskilled- to moderately-skilled work $15-$25/hr sounds like acceptable money.

Unless the guy complaining was a skilled craftsman or some kind of professional, anyway.

[Tsyroc]

Until you run across instances like this anyway. http://coloradoindependent.com/52039/th ... ertificate

Most of us are going to be screwed in that case (which sucks).

I'd really have to dig to get my birth certificate out and social security cards specifically say not to cary them on you. Plus, since those have no form of connecting the name to the face etc... I've never quite understood how a social security card is supposed to help you prove your identity.

If I was in that guy's situation I think it would almost be faster for them to run my finger prints. I've been finger printed for the USN and for my current job. That's got to be on some database somewhere.

I can't really see cops wanting to enforce the law to this extent. They are pretty busy as it is. Just another reason why the law isn't a particularly good one.

[Kanastrous]

My understanding - and I'm open to correction - is that the Federal law already requires that legally resident aliens furnish their identification upon request by authorities, anyway. So now state and local police have the authority to request the same documents that one is supposed to have handy, anyway. For anyone in compliance with the law, that doesn't sound particularly onerous. For people not in compliance with the law - well, then it's really a debate over whether or not one approves of the law.

Until you run across instances like this anyway. http://coloradoindependent.com/52039/th ... ertificate

You know, that really does suck. And I am sorry to say that if citizens end up obliged to carry an extra card or two in their wallets as part of making this effort work, I believe that it's a proportionate price to pay.

Although I would still much rather go after employers instead.

[Tsyroc]

Maybe I'm out of touch but for unskilled- to moderately-skilled work $15-$25/hr sounds like acceptable money.

Unless the guy complaining was a skilled craftsman or some kind of professional, anyway.

It's in the upper range of what Pharmacy Technicians make at the hospital I work at so it seems pretty good to me too.

[General Zod]

You know, that really does suck. And I am sorry to say that if citizens end up obliged to carry an extra card or two in their wallets as part of making this effort work, I believe that it's a proportionate price to pay.

Although I would still much rather go after employers instead.

Aside from the hilarious identity theft risk involved of carrying around your social security card and your birth certificate with you? It's a lose-lose situation really.

[Lord of the Abyss]

Of course we *really* ought to be viciously prosecuting employers who hire illegal labor. That would dry up to lure of employment, but quick.

Can't agree with you more there.

But they won't, which is a major reason why laws like this get called racist, not to mention classist. When the laws always seem designed to stomp on the poorer, darker skinned side of the equation it's hard for me to buy the claim that racism and classism aren't motives.

[Molyneux]

My understanding - and I'm open to correction - is that the Federal law already requires that legally resident aliens furnish their identification upon request by authorities, anyway. So now state and local police have the authority to request the same documents that one is supposed to have handy, anyway. For anyone in compliance with the law, that doesn't sound particularly onerous. For people not in compliance with the law - well, then it's really a debate over whether or not one approves of the law.

Until you run across instances like this anyway. http://coloradoindependent.com/52039/th ... ertificate

You know, that really does suck. And I am sorry to say that if citizens end up obliged to carry an extra card or two in their wallets as part of making this effort work, I believe that it's a proportionate price to pay.

Although I would still much rather go after employers instead.

He had his fucking driver's license. How much more ID do you need?
And I love how you stress the "intent" of the law, when its effects are the only important thing. If the effect of the law is that the police can stop anyone, any time, for whatever reason they feel like and imprison them if they don't have their proof of citizenship on hand, then that is a bad law, even if the "intent" of the law was to dispense hugs and puppies to everyone.

[General Zod]

Of course we *really* ought to be viciously prosecuting employers who hire illegal labor. That would dry up to lure of employment, but quick.

Can't agree with you more there.

But they won't, which is a major reason why laws like this get called racist, not to mention classist. When the laws always seem designed to stomp on the poorer, darker skinned side of the equation it's hard for me to buy the claim that racism and classism aren't motives.

It's dog-whistle racism. We all know there's only one group of illegal immigrants that anyone's really worried about.