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So I'm watching the episode where Troi loses her empathic ability and goes completely batshit. When she discovers that her abilities are gone, she starts mouthing off to everyone (including the fucking captain), becomes extremely defensive and volatile, gets frustrated in the middle of an officer meeting and storms out, then ends up declaring that she must resign her commission. It's like losing her empathic sense gives her an excuse to start acting like a 6 year old... and she's the damn ship psychologist. While some of this is understandable, going insane and being a complete bitch around commanding officers isn't.

Anyone else watch this episode lately?

I haven't seen it lately, but I know which one your talking about.

It shows that despite all of her moralizing and high minded pop psychology/sociology parroting (or perhaps preaching is a better word, this is TNG after all ), and otherwise acting like she's little miss sweet and innocent, that she's really nothing more than an uptight, stuck-up, spoiled little bitch who sees herself as superior to the rest of the crew.

Riker even accurately calls her on it in that episode. It really illustrates how the idea of having her in the role as a political officer fits well in universe. Her personality mirrors the ideological purity of the Federation that we see in TNG, unfortunately its just a facade, as is later hinted at in DS9.

Superman wrote:Anyone else watch this episode lately?

Not recently, but I know the one you're talking about. In terms of Troi's incompetence I think this little exchange from "Disaster" is far worse:

RO
That weakened the containment
field surrounding the antimatter
pods. The field strength is down
to forty percent and it's still
falling.

O'BRIEN
(ominously)
If it falls to fifteen percent...
the field will collapse and
there'll be a containment breach.

Beat.

TROI
Which means... ?

RO
The ship will explode.

Not to mention the amount of hand-holding she needed from O'Brien through the entire episode.

As they pointed out in that episode, she wasn't 'Qualified for Command', she just held the rank...and for some reason that meant she was in charge???

Still I don't have a fucking clue how Temujin got from 'Troi is a snarky bitch' to 'see why it means she is a political officer'...but I also don't really care.

Chris OFarrell wrote:As they pointed out in that episode, she wasn't 'Qualified for Command', she just held the rank...and for some reason that meant she was in charge???

Her not being competent to command the ship because she hasn't been trained for it is one thing, and is understandable.

Not understanding that loss of AM containment means the ship will blow is pretty basic stuff, even for a medical officer.

Temujin wrote: Riker even accurately calls her on it in that episode. It really illustrates how the idea of having her in the role as a political officer fits well in universe. Her personality mirrors the ideological purity of the Federation that we see in TNG, unfortunately its just a facade, as is later hinted at in DS9.

Funnily enough, in Diane Duane's 'Dark Mirror' (Mirror Universe TNG) she is the Political Officer.

Let me play devil's advocate for a minute (without ever having seen the episode even! ).

Isn't removing Troi's powers equivalent to making a regular person blind? It is one of her basic senses, one that she relies upon to read and interact with others, it is quite a major change for her, and a pretty good reason to go batshit, not to mention becoming an antisocial bitch much as if, suddenyl, she had become unable to properly interact with other people.

But again, just wondering.

People, it's quite simple:

Without her telepathy, Troi is bloody useless. She has no skills except that one (and romancing Riker) - she is not even a qualified psychologist! Her knowledge of actual psychology seems to be exactly zero - not surprising, since she can compenstate with reading peoples minds (not that that should be enough, but whatever).

So, once she lost that talent - she was useless.

Juubi Karakuchi wrote:

Temujin wrote: Riker even accurately calls her on it in that episode. It really illustrates how the idea of having her in the role as a political officer fits well in universe. Her personality mirrors the ideological purity of the Federation that we see in TNG, unfortunately its just a facade, as is later hinted at in DS9.

Funnily enough, in Diane Duane's 'Dark Mirror' (Mirror Universe TNG) she is the Political Officer.

It's also been discussed on this board on more than one occasion; hell, I believe Mike discussed it on his site before the board. While in-universe they may not call her such, the way she talks and acts could easily give someone the impression that that is what she is, just with a more correct title.

While it was quite a rather large and abrupt leap, my point was that her personality in this regard clearly matches the idea of the Federation as a Utopia with her as one of its mouthpieces, even though underneath the facade (similar to the one she obviously puts up) the truth is somewhat different. My apologies, I could have originally made that clearer; such is the problem with posting first thing after waking up.

In a way you have to thank Jellico for forcing Troi out of her rut.
From after the simple act of making her wear a proper uniform while on duty it seemed to be when she actually decided to get training to actually qualify for a command position and not just be the ship's psychiatrist (I mean while being on the bridge, I'm sure such a role is important but not at the command level).
No she wasn't even that, just the ship's empath.

Chris OFarrell wrote:As they pointed out in that episode, she wasn't 'Qualified for Command', she just held the rank...and for some reason that meant she was in charge???

Still I don't have a fucking clue how Temujin got from 'Troi is a snarky bitch' to 'see why it means she is a political officer'...but I also don't really care.

I have no idea why she did not just relinquish command to O’Brian in that episode. If a military doctor who holds the rank of captain was stranded in a combat scenario with two infantry privates I don’t think anyone would be surprised if he chose not to take command.

spaceviking wrote:I have no idea why she did not just relinquish command to O’Brian in that episode. If a military doctor who holds the rank of captain was stranded in a combat scenario with two infantry privates I don’t think anyone would be surprised if he chose not to take command.

He wouldn't have a choice in the matter. The correct approach would be to follow the advice of whoever knows what they're doing (usually the senior NCO).

The problem Troi had was twofold:

1) She was faced with two people (O'Brien and Ro) who knew far more than she did about how the ship worked and how to react to things going pear-shaped, and

2) She was fucking stupid, as the antimatter question shows. I very much doubt that any captain, medical or otherwise, would have a problem figuring out which end of a gun is more dangerous, which is the closest comparison I can think of.

It's ironic because a properly trained xenopsychologist would probably have been more effective than magic powers girl.

Superman wrote:So I'm watching the episode where Troi loses her empathic ability and goes completely batshit. When she discovers that her abilities are gone, she starts mouthing off to everyone (including the fucking captain), becomes extremely defensive and volatile, gets frustrated in the middle of an officer meeting and storms out, then ends up declaring that she must resign her commission. It's like losing her empathic sense gives her an excuse to start acting like a 6 year old... and she's the damn ship psychologist. While some of this is understandable, going insane and being a complete bitch around commanding officers isn't.

Anyone else watch this episode lately?

You know, I've no love for Troi, she's pretty useless, cut the lass some slack. She may have been without telepathy until she hit puberty, but from that point, she's pretty much had this ubersense that lets her know how almost everyone feels. Whyever would suddenly having that cut off not lead to her being depressed, angry, and unable to comprehend people's reactions to her? It'd be like the entire crew suddenly started walking around with paper bags with pictures of their faces on them. Her perception of other people's suddenly been crippled.

Add to that that she's very much pinned her professional role and probably self-esteem to knowing what other people are feeling, and hey presto. Of course she'd be a bitch, and probably feel self-loathing as well, once she discovered how useless she was.

A popular (layman's) definition of psyopathy involves loss of empathy. She has it as a literal sense that can be removed; and all she does is become an obnoxious bitch. I see no reason to think she'd not adapt, if left that way, over time and become more likeable (though probably still suffer extreme loss of self esteem, which hey, apparently this episode shows)

Gramzamber wrote:In a way you have to thank Jellico for forcing Troi out of her rut.
From after the simple act of making her wear a proper uniform while on duty it seemed to be when she actually decided to get training to actually qualify for a command position and not just be the ship's psychiatrist (I mean while being on the bridge, I'm sure such a role is important but not at the command level).
No she wasn't even that, just the ship's empath.

This motivated me to rewatch Chain of Command.

So, since that wasn't her proper uniform, what has she been wearing the entire time? Civilian clothes?

Jeremy wrote:
So, since that wasn't her proper uniform, what has she been wearing the entire time? Civilian clothes?

I think it was some type of casual uniform, since she wore it on every episode. A casual uniform tailored to show off her tits.

The show would have been much more enjoyable if the Duras sisters wore the pajamas while Troi wore the leather battle cleavage armor.


As far as breast appreciation goes.

Duras sisters bad teeth implies bad breath. Have you ever tried to plumb your way to a climax with halitosis rhythmically blasting your senses? I didn't think so.

tim31 wrote:Duras sisters bad teeth implies bad breath. Have you ever tried to plumb your way to a climax with halitosis rhythmically blasting your senses? I didn't think so.

While the younger one certainly didn't look bad as far as Klingon females go*, I never could understand the overwhelming appeal in some circles other than the immature response to seeing 'boobies'.

*K'Ehleyr being the exception being she was half human, and thus not fugly.

Wait a second... Did I just read that Troi fulfills the role of political officer?

Temujin wrote:It really illustrates how the idea of having her in the role as a political officer fits well in universe.

Yeah... I did.

Don't we think that we are taking the whole 'Federation is Communist' thing a little too far?

tim31 wrote:Duras sisters bad teeth implies bad breath. Have you ever tried to plumb your way to a climax with halitosis rhythmically blasting your senses? I didn't think so.

I think he was talking about having Troi in a klingon costume sans the klingong make up and prosthetics. Though I personally do not find leather corset’s attractive on anyone.

Havok wrote:Wait a second... Did I just read that Troi fulfills the role of political officer?

Temujin wrote:It really illustrates how the idea of having her in the role as a political officer fits well in universe.

Yeah... I did.

Don't we think that we are taking the whole 'Federation is Communist' thing a little too far?

While the idea of a political officer is associated with communism, they could easily exist under any ideologically driven authoritarian government.

However, I wouldn't call the TNG Feds communist, more of a technocracy if anything. And while Troi isn't truly serving as a political officer, the way she talks and acts, especially some of her more egregious examples of rah rah the Federation is wonderful crap does make it seem that disseminating propaganda is part of her job description.

Temujin wrote:

Havok wrote:Wait a second... Did I just read that Troi fulfills the role of political officer?

Temujin wrote:It really illustrates how the idea of having her in the role as a political officer fits well in universe.

Yeah... I did.

Don't we think that we are taking the whole 'Federation is Communist' thing a little too far?

While the idea of a political officer is associated with communism, they could easily exist under any ideologically driven authoritarian government.

Indeed, the term actually originated in the French Revolution.

However, I wouldn't call the TNG Feds communist, more of a technocracy if anything. And while Troi isn't truly serving as a political officer, the way she talks and acts, especially some of her more egregious examples of rah rah the Federation is wonderful crap does make it seem that disseminating propaganda is part of her job description.

It's more the fact that her position in the ship does not obviously lend itself to any particular role you would find on a ship. She doesn't drive it, fire the weapons, run the engines or the computers or anything of that sort; her role is to simply counsel the captain and crew and to make sure everything is running smoothly.

EDIT: Incidentally, the Chinese military have political commisars too:

Wiki wrote:The position of political commissar (Chinese: 政治委员, 政委) also exists in the People's Liberation Army of China. Usually, the political commissar is a uniformed military officer, although this position has been used to give civilian party officials some experience with the military. The political commissar was head of a party cell within the military; however, military membership in the party has been restricted to the lower ranks since the 1980s. Today the political commissar is largely responsible for administrative tasks such as public relations and counseling, and sometimes serves as second-in-command.

Bolded for emphasis.

The US Navy appears to also have clinical and counseling psychologists and they appear to sometimes deployed on aircraft carriers.


Additionally, given that we saw more than one starship commander crack during the run of TOS, I can easily see Starfleet deciding there needs to be someone keeping a close eye on the captain. Hell, if he hadn't had Spock and McCoy with him, Kirk himself might have been burned out by the end of his five-year mission.

I would actually expect clinical and counseling psychologists to be part of the medical staff on any ship, especially a star ship light years from home and encountering all sorts of bizarre shit on a regular basis. I always figured they were there in TOS, just a subset of McCoy's staff.

Uraniun235 wrote:Additionally, given that we saw more than one starship commander crack during the run of TOS, I can easily see Starfleet deciding there needs to be someone keeping a close eye on the captain. Hell, if he hadn't had Spock and McCoy with him, Kirk himself might have been burned out by the end of his five-year mission.

That is a pretty good reason why they might elevate such a position to be part of the bridge crew.