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Okay, the Founders are shapeshifting aliens who are normally liquid in form but can mimic any shape, reassemble themselves if broken apart, and seem to be able to shrug off attacks made with projectile weapons and the like (they also regularly violate physics and I think they can survive and even travel in space without protection). It seems their only real 'weakness' is that they need to return to a liquid form every once in a while.

However, after being discriminated against by 'solids' they started the Dominion and use the genetically modified soldiers the Jem'Hadar and the Vorta to expand their empire.

Okay, budget and special effects issues aside, why didn't the Founders just fight their wars themselves instead of messing around with genetically modified 'solids'? I have no idea how many Founders were floating around in that Great Link (which looked like just a huge ocean of shapeshifter goo) but there had to have been billions if not trillions of them... or more (I mean, if you were to remove all the water from the oceans on Earth and replace them with people piled on top of eachother then thats what the Great Link supposedly was... the biggest pile of naked aliens in the galaxy).


So, unless the Founders are all sterile or something then I see no reason for them to rely on 'solid' troops. Have a bunch of young Founders get drafted into the military, give them some armor to protect against energy weapons, a container to sleep in when they get tired, and some guns and you've got footsoldiers. Not only footsoldiers, but every damm one of them could shapeshift, going to battle against an army of shapeshifter would be the worst f---ing in the world. Heck, have the dominion use projectile weapons (that rip up those annoying 'solids' while being more or less harmless to Founders themselves) and you have the potential for a truly psychotic and ruthless army (one perfectly willing to shoot through eachother since they know they aren't harmed by bullets, and if someone claims to be 'one of theirs' but refuses to shapeshift then they test them with a shot to the head).


So, are there any practical or logical reasons why the Founders would want to stay at home floating in a big ocean of goo and using supersoldiers instead of going out to fight in battle personally?

Rossum wrote:Okay, budget and special effects issues aside, why didn't the Founders just fight their wars themselves instead of messing around with genetically modified 'solids'? I have no idea how many Founders were floating around in that Great Link (which looked like just a huge ocean of shapeshifter goo) but there had to have been billions if not trillions of them... or more (I mean, if you were to remove all the water from the oceans on Earth and replace them with people piled on top of eachother then thats what the Great Link supposedly was... the biggest pile of naked aliens in the galaxy).

Franky, we have no way to gauge their true numbers. We have no real evidence either way as to how much of that 'ocean' was actually made up of Founders and how much was some other liquid, and we also don't know if what we saw was anything bigger than a small lake. For all we know they only number in the thousands.

Rossum wrote:So, unless the Founders are all sterile or something then I see no reason for them to rely on 'solid' troops.

They aren't sterile. Exhibit A: Odo. Him and a number of other siblings were sent off when very young. The crew even finds one of these in an episode, but it dies.

Rossum wrote:Have a bunch of young Founders get drafted into the military, give them some armor to protect against energy weapons, a container to sleep in when they get tired, and some guns and you've got footsoldiers. Not only footsoldiers, but every damm one of them could shapeshift, going to battle against an army of shapeshifter would be the worst f---ing in the world. Heck, have the dominion use projectile weapons (that rip up those annoying 'solids' while being more or less harmless to Founders themselves) and you have the potential for a truly psychotic and ruthless army (one perfectly willing to shoot through eachother since they know they aren't harmed by bullets, and if someone claims to be 'one of theirs' but refuses to shapeshift then they test them with a shot to the head).

So, are there any practical or logical reasons why the Founders would want to stay at home floating in a big ocean of goo and using supersoldiers instead of going out to fight in battle personally?

Aside from questionable numbers, they are not only paranoid and xenophobic towards solids (though if you believe their history there is some rational for that view), but they are also extremely arrogant and consider themselves superior to soilds. While they obviously programmed the Jem'Hadar and the Vorta to see them as gods, they have fallen into the trap of starting to believe their own hype. Hence why would they dare sully themselves and risk their lives when they can mass produce obedient clones to do it for them. And despite their arrogance, that capability is more than enough of a logical reason for them not to do it. Morale no, logical yes.

While the Founders do show some amazing abilities, they are better using them as we saw on screen; as infiltrators, saboteurs, and espionage agents.

I think the likely explanation is fairly obvious: simple self-interest. They don't want to go into combat and risk getting shot if they can get somebody else to do it for them instead.

The simplest explanation is the same reason why the Emperor doesn't personally oversee all his operations in Star Wars despite his great power.
They're the overlords, they're above the common drones in their empire. They're also paranoid and xenophobic, and essentially the entire Dominion exists solely so they can feel safe in their isolated home.

The Founders viewed their lives as irreplaceable and precious. IIRC they pulled the plug on one of their own operations when they thought it would place Odo in danger but can't recall that episode exactly. In another episode where a jem Hedar fighter crash lands on a Federation planet the Jem Hedar stop at nothing in trying to recover a founder among the wreckage. When they find out the founder died they freely give the Federation the fighter- a huge intelligence boon for the Federation - so they value the life of a single founder more than the potential damage caused by handing over one of their ships to an enemy power.

To put themselves at risk makes no sense. They bred soldiers for that, they shaped races to do things for them like interact with solids (Vorta). The founders would much rather spend their lives in the Great Link than do anything else.

I do wonder if it ever crossed their minds to create a servant race with some of their own useful properties though. They'd be pretty useful.

I have this funny idea now that maybe Armis from TNG Skin of Evil might just have been some failed experiment of theirs.

I'd think it'd go against all their beliefs to create a servant race that was in any way similar to them, they hold on to the ideal that their kind are superior to solids above all else. Even the Vorta who hold the most public power in the Dominion are little more than serfs to them.

As for Armus, I've always thought he was possibly a changeling who went completely insane due to lonliness after being stuck on that planet for who knows how long.

Armus couldn't be a changeling as it was incredible resilient. It was not only highly resistant (possible immune) to phaser fire, but was feeding off of the phaser energy. They also used a Photorp to destroy the shuttle, but didn't feel it would hurt Armus.

Armus also had the whole energy field / psychokinesis powers that blocked sensor scans, communications, transporters, etc.; and could be used to control / drag humans or kill them.

The Founders have never shown any of these abilities.

In the first DS9 mirror universe they just shoot evil-Odo with a phaser/disruptor, and he's instagib'd. That's why. They're good in close combat, but that's really about it. Jem'hadar, on the other hand, are utterly expendable.

Remember, their entire sense of social worth comes from 'no changeling has ever harmed another' - they would be very averse to sending their own kind into battle.

Gramzamber wrote:The simplest explanation is the same reason why the Emperor doesn't personally oversee all his operations in Star Wars despite his great power.
They're the overlords, they're above the common drones in their empire. They're also paranoid and xenophobic, and essentially the entire Dominion exists solely so they can feel safe in their isolated home.

Exactly; that's the on-screen reason.

In the Trek EU, it's fleshed out a little more. It's a combination of this and the Founders being unable to reproduce, hence a desire to protect their numbers.

How did they become sterile?

Jeremy wrote:How did they become sterile?

While it's not canon, the DS9 Relaunch novella "The Dominion: Olympus Descending" delves more into the Founders' origins:

...their race begun with a semi mythical being called the Progenitor which created the universe and everything in it according to their beliefs. This entity was noted to have taken a population of "solids" and imbued them with its own malleable characteristics which led to the creation of the Great Link. After which, the creature departed known space leaving the Changeling incapable of reproducing though with lengthy life spans.

This seems like a pretty dumb question, really, for a few reasons.

Firstly, as mentioned, the founders considered themselves superior to solids and even to be gods. It would be inconsistent with their percieved role to throw themselves into the meatgrinder when the entire point of the Dominion was to safeguard the founders from the solids.

Secondly, there was no need. They had legions of expendable Jem'Hadar to do their fighting for them. Lacking in quality as they may have been, there were enough of them to do the ground combat job.

Thirdly, they actually did use themselves to fight their enemies, just in a more useful role. The Martok founder, the one that bombed a conference on earth, the one that hijacked the Defiant, they were all placing themselves at great risk for the Dominion, but just in a role where they achieved much, much, more.

Founder footsoldiers would be ideoloically inconsistent, unnecessary, an inefficient.

Rossum wrote:So, are there any practical or logical reasons why the Founders would want to stay at home floating in a big ocean of goo and using supersoldiers instead of going out to fight in battle personally?

The comments above on Founder's opinion on the value of life notwithstanding; if you have this fantastic ability that lends itself to espionage and covert operations, why engage in direct battle? Why not just have massive espionage networks and ruthless decapitation strikes, as the Salarians of Mass Effect do?

Dave wrote:

Rossum wrote:Why not just have massive espionage networks and ruthless decapitation strikes, as the Salarians of Mass Effect do?

Exactly, which was the Founders' strategy for weakening the Alpha Quadrant. They tricked the Tal Shiar and Obsidian Order into attacking their homeworld and then decimated them and tricked the Klingons into invading Cardassia, which as a bonus reopened hostilities between the Empire and the UFP.