Canada pays 9 billion for 65 x F-35

[MKSheppard]

No link, but saw it in the Post a bit back. Canada is paying nine billion for 65 x F-35 JSF.

This comes out to about $138 million per plane -- while F-22A would have cost the same; though I'm sure a bunch of the overall contract is for spares and support.

Stupid Congress passing no export law on F-22A: I want to see CF-22s.

[[R_H]]

Canada to spend $9B on F-35 fighter jets

The Canadian government said Friday it plans to spend $9 billion to purchase a new generation of fighter jets, the F-35 Lightning II Joint Strike Fighter.

Defence Minister Peter MacKay told a news conference in Ottawa that the jets would be purchased from Lockheed Martin, with the first one expected for delivery by 2016

The contract, one of the biggest military equipment purchases in Canadian history, is worth $9 billion, but the full cost could rise to as much $18 billion once the government signs a maintenance contract.

MacKay said the government would make further announcements on additional costs at a later date.

The new jets would replace an aging fleet of CF-18s that recently underwent a $2.6-billion upgrade.

"This aircraft is the best that we can provide our men and women in uniform, and this government is committed to giving them the very best," MacKay said at a news conference.
Sole-source contract questioned

But the government is fending off criticism that it is making one of the biggest military purchases in Canadian history without a single competing bid.

The Liberals say the massive purchase of 65 jets should have been subjected to competitive bids.

Liberal Leader Michael Ignatieff is calling on the House of Commons defence committee to reconvene as soon as possible to examine what he calls the Tory government's "secretive, unaccountable decision to proceed with this contract."

The Liberals want the committee to question other potential bidders and procurement experts to determine whether a sole-sourced contract gives maximum value to the government and taxpayers.

"I think Canadians are amazed that the largest procurement deal in the history of the country is a single-sourced — so, it's not a competitive — deal," Ignatieff told reporters.

"We don't know whether we're getting value for money. And they're releasing it on a Friday … in the middle of July, when they think no Canadian is watching and when Parliament is not sitting."

A previous Liberal government signed a memorandum of understanding with Lockheed Martin to develop the Joint Strike Fighter but that did not commit Canada to buy the aircraft.

"I am questioning the hypocrisy which seems to soar higher than this aircraft in now criticizing purchasing the very plane that the previous government signalled very early on that they were going to do," MacKay said.
Jets 'absolutely necessary': analyst

Military analyst Mercedes Stephenson told CBC News that the purchase is "absolutely necessary."

She added: "We have to have fighter jets. Canada is a massive country, and when you think purely about response times, there is nothing else that can get across the country as fast as a fighter jet.

"Also, when you are dealing with the Arctic, there is very little that has the kind of survivability of a fighter jet in the air under those kinds of harsh conditions."

She added that the purchase is also important for Canada to meet obligations to its international allies.

"Everybody else is updating their fighter jets, and there simply hasn't been a technology developed that can replace it at this point," Stephenson said.

But the NDP argues even if Canada needs fighter jets, it's not clear it needs these particular ones.

"The issue for the Canadian defence department is, is the F-35 what we want?" said NDP MP Malcolm Allen.

Allen said the jet was built to suit the needs of U.S. forces.

"We are basically buying these for Canadian duties," he said. "New Democrats are fully supportive of the men and women in the armed forces ... but we have to decide what it is they are going to do, and we have not done that."

Allen said that a proper analysis of Canada's defence needs has not been done in 15 years

[MKSheppard]

The contract, one of the biggest military equipment purchases in Canadian history, is worth $9 billion, but the full cost could rise to as much $18 billion once the government signs a maintenance contract.

!!!!!!!

You've just paid F-22A prices for a plane markedly inferior in every other way except it's data fusion capabilities.

[aerius]

This is the Canadian government we're talking about, we once purchased a bunch of surplus subs which were falling to pieces and spent god knows how many billions trying to fix the damn things. I don't know if they ever managed to actually sail them or if they're still stuck in a drydock somewhere.

[[R_H]]

This is the Canadian government we're talking about, we once purchased a bunch of surplus subs which were falling to pieces and spent god knows how many billions trying to fix the damn things. I don't know if they ever managed to actually sail them or if they're still stuck in a drydock somewhere.

Don't forget the helicopter deal that Chretien backed out of. It cost something like 500 million to back out of the contract.

What's slightly ridiculous is that Canada just spent close to 3 billion upgrading the CF-18 fleet.

[Sea Skimmer]

!!!!!!!

You've just paid F-22A prices for a plane markedly inferior in every other way except it's data fusion capabilities.

I doubt it, that contract may be for a decade plus of maintenance work and two thirds of the cost of a combat plane are in maintenance and operations. The F-35 is pretty much certain to be cheaper to fly because it only has one engine, and little or no need for taping access panels. The F-35 is superior for really but high end air to air, and an F-35 should have longer range. Its certainly a more capable bomber, and one able to carry 5,000lb class bombs and heavy cruise missiles which seems to have been totally ruled out because of the weaker then expected F-22 wing. The initial 138 million isn’t that bad if its including all the ground support equipment, and almost certainly a great many different kinds of weapons launchers.

[Stark]

I was going to ask how much replacements and maintenance would add to this, but I guess that's answered now.

Since infinite money can't buy an F-22, its a pretty dumb comparison. Everyone from AU to Japan wants F-22s, but if they start selling them it seems nobody will buy the F-35.

[Hawkwings]

I hear a lot of complaining about this being a non-competitive deal, but really, what other options would Canada have for a similarly-capable aircraft?

[tim31]

That's just it; since the F-22 isn't on the table, it's either F-35, Eurofighter, or Sukhoi.... The Aus DOD made noise about having to consider Sukhoi since the F-22 wasn't going to be made available, but it was just noise. In the end, the RAAF brass probably wants to retain inter-force compatibility with a minimum of fuss.

[UnderAGreySky]

The Rafale, the Gripen NG and the Typhoon tranche 3. The Gripen would be the single-engined low-cost alternative (but with no L/O); the other two obviously twin-engined, slightly larger and with more stealthiness.

[Sea Skimmer]

Rafale will never sell, its system are too outdated and inferior to what planes like the F-16 Block 60 and F-15SG are flying with right now. Typhoon is crippled by the same thing, and a lot of its planned upgrades are simply not happening or not in remotely timely manners though it at least has some hope in the long term since a number of nations are stuck with it. Gripen NG is cheaper then most top end fighters, but still pretty expensive and small and lightly armed. The F-35 is kind of winning through lack of credible alternatives from the western world. If someone wants a truly cheap kind of modern fighter they can get second hand F-16s from a number of countries, the US has hoards to offer now.

Sukhoi would do better if not for the fact that the western avionics packages they offer are all from France, and thus not that great. Who knows, once the F-15 and F-16 lines shutdown the US might allow someone to team up with the Russians....

[[R_H]]

The Rafale, the Gripen NG and the Typhoon tranche 3. The Gripen would be the single-engined low-cost alternative (but with no L/O); the other two obviously twin-engined, slightly larger and with more stealthiness.

I thought the only the countries that participated in the development of the Typhoon could buy it?

What about the Super Hornet or the Silent Eagle?

[Marcus Aurelius]

Rafale will never sell, its system are too outdated and inferior to what planes like the F-16 Block 60 and F-15SG are flying with right now.

Well, Thales is introducing an AESA version of the RBE2 radar, so I wouldn't count the Rafale out yet as far as export goes, especially concerning the traditional Middle East clients of the French. Currently it looks like Rafale will have a functioning AESA radar before the Typhoon.

[Darth Tanner]

I thought the only the countries that participated in the development of the Typhoon could buy it?

No, we are selling some to those kind people in Saudi Arabia. BBC

[Eleas]

Rafale will never sell, its system are too outdated and inferior to what planes like the F-16 Block 60 and F-15SG are flying with right now. Typhoon is crippled by the same thing, and a lot of its planned upgrades are simply not happening or not in remotely timely manners though it at least has some hope in the long term since a number of nations are stuck with it. Gripen NG is cheaper then most top end fighters, but still pretty expensive and small and lightly armed.

IIRC, the Gripen's forté lies in being still pretty advanced and capable, particularly when you're not counting on being able to control your airstrips. Buying it may be expensive; keeping it in the air is (or so I hear) relatively low-cost.

Still, which specific fighter would be ideal for their purposes probably depends more on their existing military organization. The capability of the JAS to refuel without an airstrip can be vital, but it you never need to use it, it's not going to do much good.

Similarly, the F-22 is a bloody good fighter, but if your intended use is rapid response against a variety of threats and incidents, very few if any of those are going to be enemy aircraft, I suspect the high costs of keeping an F-22 fleet flying would be quite noticeable. In that case, a country like Canada might want to stick with a less bleeding-edge design.

[weemadando]

Australia has you beat.

We're paying 3.2 billion for our first batch of just 14 of the suckers (eventually going to 72 for about 12 billion). And that's not to mention our input costs to date as part of the development consortium.

[aerius]

Don't forget the helicopter deal that Chretien backed out of. It cost something like 500 million to back out of the contract.

Yeah, that too. Then we waited 10 years and bought the damn things anyway at a higher price.

[Sea Skimmer]

Well, Thales is introducing an AESA version of the RBE2 radar, so I wouldn't count the Rafale out yet as far as export goes, especially concerning the traditional Middle East clients of the French. Currently it looks like Rafale will have a functioning AESA radar before the Typhoon.

Those being? Very few ‘traditional’ French customers exist anymore, especially not anyone with the billions of dollars required to even think about buying fighters like that. The French sold Mirages really well in the Mid East because of certain events in 1967 causing third world air forces to absurdly overrate the Mirage III interceptor design and decide anything that followed must be really good. These were still all and all cheep planes with few advanced systems, a generation of air power that’s pretty well dead. But by the time you hit the computer driven Mirage 2000 in the 1980s sales were way down, and indeed one of the larger sales, to Taiwan, only occurred because of a huge bribery scandal.

Now looking at the major powers in the Mid East, Egypt has to buy most of its weapons with US aid and is heavily committed to the F-16, Saudi Arabia bought Typhoon and is now talking about more F-15s, Iraq has no money and aiming at the F-16 for minimal cost, Iran is off the table, the UAE funded the entire F-16 block 60 project, Turkey is locally producing F-35s. Of the minor powers Oman is strongly favoring Typhoon and would only being buying roughly 20 aircraft. Kuwait has hinted at interest a while ago, but likewise for only a small number of planes.

In fact about the most credible place Rafael might be exported is Libya, and even that is vague. Rafael doesn’t deliver on anything but French pride.

The fact is Typhoon and Rafael where transitional planes and political squabbling for the first ten years ensured that both would be so deadlier they completely missed out on the transitional gap between US fighter designs. That has crippled them both and nothings going to change it. That Typhoon is actually four different aircraft on four different assembly lines, while Rafael is produced painfully slowly sure didn’t help the situation.

As for AESA, no one is going to be that excited at the idea of taking delivery of a brand new radar from a company which only recently gained the ability to make the required hardware. It takes a long time to develop the capabilities of radars like that and gain the new capabilities you want, and the US just has an overwhelming advantage on this subject having been fielding AESA on operational planes since the mid 1990s. 2012 in service date means more like 2015 before it works really well, this is far into the F-35 production run. F-35 is making up lost ground too, at least in terms of flying all the test missions so it is at least less likely now that any more major delays will occur. F-35 flyaway cost is now projected at 89 million, vs. about 80 million for a Rafael. I sure know which one I'd rather have.

[Themightytom]

Just out of curiosity, how many F-35s do we have? its kind of a funny thought (for me) that Canada might have better fighters parked on our border, that we designed...

[Aaron]

None (other then test aircraft), it's not operational yet.

[Sea Skimmer]

Its not operational but numbers are increasing, around nine of the planes are actually flying the test and development program right now but some 56 planes are funded through FY2010 and a total of 99 planes through FY2011. Production has been held back though by certain parts shortages stemming mainly from higher tolerances to reduce weight. It will take a while to finish improving all the component plants to do this. Entry into service is currently planned in FY2015 and full rate production in FY2016. The FY09/10/11 budgets alone allocate over 30 billion dollars to the F-35 program!

[Aaron]

This is the Canadian government we're talking about, we once purchased a bunch of surplus subs which were falling to pieces and spent god knows how many billions trying to fix the damn things. I don't know if they ever managed to actually sail them or if they're still stuck in a drydock somewhere.

Don't forget the helicopter deal that Chretien backed out of. It cost something like 500 million to back out of the contract.

What's slightly ridiculous is that Canada just spent close to 3 billion upgrading the CF-18 fleet.

Not really, those CF-18's were first generation aircraft and from what I understand if we left them as is then we wouldn't have any capability to operate with the Yanks.

Anyways, it may turn out that those CF-18's will end up operating longer then expected. If the PC's don't manage to hang onto power past 2016 you can pretty much guarantee that the Liberals will commission an inquiry into this, if they don't outright kill the purchase.

[MKSheppard]

The FY09/10/11 budgets alone allocate over 30 billion dollars to the F-35 program!

Is that to be spread out over several years after the three budget years; eg out to 2015-2020? Because the more I read about it the more the F-35 is a bridge too far.

[Sea Skimmer]

Is that to be spread out over several years after the three budget years; eg out to 2015-2020? Because the more I read about it the more the F-35 is a bridge too far.

No that's what was being spent in those three years alone, but what do you expect out of a program to build three different planes with the same name at the same time? Mind you the figures would have been lower, but Gates ordered a lot more money shifted to early F-35 production, raising FY2010 spending from 6.8 to 10 billion for example. Basically they doubled production funding, and somewhat increased R&D funding.

Logic was this would help R&D and the overall health of the program by providing a lot more planes to tinker with, so taking one out of service to install some new widget doesn't delay anything ect... it would also allow a jump start on pilot training, but so far the parts shortages have prevented this from happening as intended. This should however provide firm basis for increasing F-35 production rates, and right now this is a major idea being studied to control total program costs. Producing the same number of planes faster will make them cheaper, but we can only do if it more cash is found to throw out up front. Budget realities may or may not allow this to occur but its nice to have the choice on the table.

If you divide all the budgets by three to reflect the fact that commonality of airframes has vanished then it doesn't work out to be all that bad. Shitty that all three are stuck with the same basic shape, but nothings going to change that now.

[Medic]

The Canadian announcement is not an actual order for aircraft.

Kim Testa, spokeswoman for Lockheed Martin Aeronautics Co. in Fort Worth, said the company can now begin negotiations on a formal contract to build the jets. Testa said it is expected that Canada will place the order to begin production in 2014.

The F-35 is being developed by Lockheed in Fort Worth, and final assembly of production aircraft for the U.S. and most foreign countries will be in Fort Worth.

The cost to Canada to purchase the 65 planes alone is expected to be about $8.5 billion, but the full cost could rise to as much $17 billion once the government signs a maintenance contract.

Read more: http://www.star-telegram.com/2010/07/16 ... z0u7bbI2rz

Call it $17b then.

edit: wrong slash on the quote box

The F-35 fly-away cost saga is by no means finished until it's finished -- look how many F-16's were ultimately sold, and this from a fair-weather no radar aircraft at it's inception -- but it's increasingly losing the value proposition it was sold as.