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Ah, the first of the Next Gen and thank you for the start. Notable that Generations story is the montage. Without it, you don't know the history of the movie. That and the daughter of Sulu. Also Ent-B being the only ship in the Solar System, IN SOL'S SYSTEM?!

Ugh.

Never noticed the uniform in my two viewings of the movie. Says how much I paid attention to the damned thing . Really, now I do see it in your review. And the technobabble, I did notice, and still just blech. And why does Data go "I pissed in my pants!!!" because of emotions? Eh, I'll just say Picard's weepiness broke him. And the Dalek, Cylon, Londo bit? That would've made the movie better.

The Nexus bit? I had similar thoughts when I watched it. I couldn't get what the fuck why the writers didn't make a more compelling reason, something! Hell, your bit actually brings emphasis to the villain's motivations. No really, he's evil because his stupid as fuck weapon but he never ever ever thought of...I dunno...FLYING A SHIP into it? Like he nearly got into there in the first place?

And your Kirk bit is awesome. In both his asskicking, and death.

Swapping the Klingons out for villains from other universes was brilliant

Also, nice rant about the stupid Nexus time travel.

I'd like to know why was Peter Davison doing there!

Even the beginning of the movie, even though set in TOS movie era, felt just like a fucking Voy ep. When the Ent-B leaves spacedock, you expect to hear Horner/TWOK era music as the mighty ship leaves, only to get lame warmed over music like on a typical ep of Voy. And the technobabble at the beginning was bad not just because it was pointless technobabble, but because it just doesn't thematically belong in that era.

Nuts, I apparently missed linking his Coda to Generations. Well, here it is:



Well... That was...emotional..

Soran's methods of entering the Nexus on his second(?) try was something that even I, as a nine-year old, was confounded with. When a kid in third grade realizes that something is missing inside the story, then that has got to say something about the Dream Team's storybaking skills. It also manages to make him look like a complete asshole, because he would rather kill billions of sentient beings in an overly complex plot, rather than simply sacrifice a small shuttle, just to further his goals of entering paradise.

Another problem I always had was with the fact that to the Nexus time has no meaning, and they never even asked the question of what would happen to the Soran already in the nexus if Picard and Kirk were to leave, since if time has no meaning to the Nexus, causality shouldn't either.

That said, and maybe i've been reading too much of that Voyager rewrite fic, how would any of you guys rather see Generations?

Personally I would rather see the Duras sisters ousted and replaced by Sela, the BOP fight replaced with a slugging match vs a D'Deridex, something we never got to see, it would make the Enterprise D's destruction make more sense too.

Soran having different motives, and no Nexus BS, but something else that took him 80 years to plan, set up and put into motion that requires both Kirk and Picard's combined efforts to stop in a more believable way.

A better death for Kirk that gives him a more proper send off, a Death that is more meaningful and less arbitrary. One that serves as a proper passing of the torch from Kirk to Picard (which should have been the whole point of the movie both in universe and out), Kirk dying knowing that the federation is in good hands and to wish Picard well, giving a more heartfelt goodbye.

Looking past the start of Commander Data ultimately degenerating as a character, the Nexus being little else but a glorified holodeck, and Soran's convoluted plan, my biggest gripe with this movie is how little Captain Kirk was used and how brief his team up with Captain Picard was, with the build up with Soran's silly scheme being padding that ate up the screentime. While not as horrid as Insurrection and lifeless as Nemesis it still squandered its story potential and was decidedly average (though I'm a bit surprised by the very low final score). I've sat through this movie earlier this evening - it's pretty much a middle of the road story held together almost entirely by Patrick Stewart's performance, solid SFX that still holds up today and a pleasant music score.

They never should have had Kirk, Chekov or Scotty in this film. It ruined it.

TOS had its massive send off moment at the end of TUC. The TNG cast deserved better than Generations delivered to them.

What was most disappointing to me is how Kirks story ended.

First, we have him living a bog-standard happy farm live - because a captain who wanted nothing but a ship to command secretly wants to life a simple life! To me, that was just stupid preaching - and it totally did not fit Kirk. Which is why i always interpreted the Nexus as employing some form of brainwashing in order to make people happy - the easiest way to create paradise is to manipulate someones wishes.

And when he comes back, he doesn't go out in a blaze of Glory. He doesn't fight unbelievable odds, he is not commanding a spaceship trough the maws of hell, he is not battling an ancient superbeing.
No, instead his job is to beat up an old man - his job could have been one by any random thug.
Kirk was not needed for any of his unique skills. He was just needed to get another warm body. But that's not heroic, that's not epic - that's not how you depose of a character who is both.

alot of the problems of Generations seemed to me be due to the writers and crew trying too hard to make things look "cool" without thinking what actually makes them so "cool" in the first place.

Take the Ent-D vs. BOP fight of example, in the movie the Enterprise gets supriced by cheap trick and the true resorts to using a cheap trick of their own to beat a far inferior enemy, it just doesn't have the feel of accomplishment it suppose to have, but had Enterprise opened up with everything it had dispite the enemy being able to pass it's defeses at ease, sure the "hero" would have still gone down from it's "wounds" but it would felt more like a heroic "I'm taking you with me" moment then the "my deus ex machina is stronger then yours" moment that's in the movie.

Stofsk wrote:They never should have had Kirk, Chekov or Scotty in this film. It ruined it.

Personally I think they should've used them properly or not at all, instead they were just book ends to the Soran story that mostly opened a big can of worms (why the multi-planetary destruction and superweapons when Guinan, on a exploding ship, left a clone of herself in the Nexus? And where was the "echo" of Soran if he experienced the Nexus as well?).

Lord Revan wrote:alot of the problems of Generations seemed to me be due to the writers and crew trying too hard to make things look "cool" without thinking what actually makes them so "cool" in the first place.

Take the Ent-D vs. BOP fight of example, in the movie the Enterprise gets supriced by cheap trick and the true resorts to using a cheap trick of their own to beat a far inferior enemy, it just doesn't have the feel of accomplishment it suppose to have, but had Enterprise opened up with everything it had dispite the enemy being able to pass it's defeses at ease, sure the "hero" would have still gone down from it's "wounds" but it would felt more like a heroic "I'm taking you with me" moment then the "my deus ex machina is stronger then yours" moment that's in the movie.

Ron Moore offered some kind of limp excuse that "every phaser blast and photon torpedo" costs money or some such shit, but even within the constraints they should have been able to write a compelling confrontation. They were just shitty storytellers - what else do you expect from the guys who brought us TNG season 7?

Of course, their original death for Kirk - being shot in the back by Soran - was so terrible and so utterly panned by the test audience that Paramount gave them a few million dollars more and ordered them to fix it.

Stofsk wrote:They never should have had Kirk, Chekov or Scotty in this film. It ruined it.

TOS had its massive send off moment at the end of TUC. The TNG cast deserved better than Generations delivered to them.

I listened to the audio-commentary awhile back and RDM and Braga realized they fucked up somewhere when they saw the big meeting between Kirk and Picard had them in a kitchen cooking eggs.

What would have made Kirk's heroic sacrifice more sensible is if the crew assigned to the E-B were a well-oiled machine that immediately got its shit together and rescued the El Aurians from the first second, and if Kirk were the only TOS guest aboard. Thus, Kirk would see that this crew were a worthy successor to his own and would make the heroic sacrifice to give the promising crew a future in its entirety.

I have no idea how to fix Kirk's paradise, other than making it a swashbuckling, space opera-style shingding.

Wyrm wrote: I have no idea how to fix Kirk's paradise, other than making it a swashbuckling, space opera-style shingding.

Perhaps that and above all Captain Kirk HAVING HIS SON BACK, you know the son who was neglected while a boy and once Kirk finally patched things up with his son Marcus many years later, Marcus was then abrubtly murdered?!

Big Orange wrote:

Wyrm wrote: I have no idea how to fix Kirk's paradise, other than making it a swashbuckling, space opera-style shingding.

Perhaps that and above all Captain Kirk HAVING HIS SON BACK, you know the son who was neglected while a boy and once Kirk finally patched things up with his son Marcus many years later, Marcus was then abrubtly murdered?!

They'd have to do a recast (maybe have Kirk raising a Nexus fantasy, younger version of him) as the actor who played David had died by the time of Generations.

I biggest gripe with the Nexus fantasy is that of all the women Kirk's banged, the one he'd want to spend his life with in his uber-fantasy....is one we never met. Fuck that. Carol Marcus is the easy answer, but if you wanted to go for Kirk's dream life that was totally impossible I'd go with Edith Keeler from "City on the Edge of Forever".

I'd probably be impossible, as I doubt anyone would want to truck out an ancient Joan Collins, but then again, we barely see the chick in this film on screen, so maybe it wouldn't be.

Uraniun235 wrote: Ron Moore offered some kind of limp excuse that "every phaser blast and photon torpedo" costs money or some such shit, but even within the constraints they should have been able to write a compelling confrontation.

Extremely limp excuse. They were able to do a more compelling confrontation in Season 3 with not one but two alpha strikes from the Enterprise D.



Am I really supposed to believe that a movie budget can't do what a one time 3rd season TNG episode could do 5 years earlier? Both the death of Kirk the legend and the death of the Enterprise D was handled amazingly poorly.

I somehow never noticed the uniform thing Chuck mentioned, but now that he mentioned it, I fear I'll never be able to look at this movie again without noticing it. It's a new offense to a movie that really didn't need any more offenses added to it. There's not really a justifiable in-universe explanation. It's not as if the Enterprise would have a problem REPLICATING the new uniform style if their shipment of new uniforms was left wanting.

I also have to agree with Chuck on several other fronts.
-Civilians in the battle section. Ok, so I can see that MAYBE civilians might be there during peacetime operations (there's really no reason for this, but I'm giving them a pass here). But the ship had been on red alert ever since they entered the system...or actually maybe the moment they engaged warp towards that system. SOP should be to move the civies to the saucer during any alert condition, just incase.
-All those people on the bridge, and not one replacement for the helmsman besides Troi? I know this was a thematic choice to make her look useful and have something to do. But series TNG was always good about having the back-up helmsman be on the bridge and quietly take the station when someone needs to go do something. It was established throughout most of the series. Now they're nowhere to be found.
-The beaming back and forth from the planet issue. So Picard can easily beam down, Soran can easily beam down, yet no one can beam them back up. How were the Durass Sisters going to take Picard hostage if they would likely have the same trouble finding him as the Enterprise was having? Why would those two boobed bimbos even agree to this deal? It makes absolutely no fucking sense. Beam Geordi over, and the Enterprise could kick the shit out of the BOP without interference as no one is on board who matters anymore.

Chuck's final score was appropriate, and his line at the end was spot on. The stupidity actually helps to distract from the fact that the whole thing is just one big mess. Even if it wasn't glaringly stupid in places, it would still be a mess.

Compare this battle to what Babylon 5 offered up viewers earlier in 1994, the same year Generations was released, in the episode "Signs and Portents". Yeah, its shitty looking, especially sixteen years later, but damned if it isn't more exciting. With a shoe-string budget the episode had multiple fighters in dogfights, B5's never-before-seen defense grid shooting at crap, plus two new starship models for the episode (the Raider's carrier and the Shadow vessel).

A feature film with a far greater budget, and effects done by ILM couldn't come up with something closer to that?

Oh, and the protagonist didn't need to pull technobabble BS to win in said B5 episode. He drew his enemy into a murder-zone, caught in the middle of two fighter squadrons and the station's defense grid.

Skylon wrote:
A feature film with a far greater budget, and effects done by ILM couldn't come up with something closer to that?

Well, no, since B5 used CGI exclusively for space battles but Generations and the Star Trek shows continued to use mostly models. It was a very clear decision on the part of JMS and the rest of B5 creative team: they knew that CGI would become outdated much quicker, but it also allowed them to do stuff that they could have never done with miniature models considering the budget. That decision has stood the test of time; while the B5 first season SFX are badly outdated, the battle scenes still work dramatically, even if they look like late 1990s or early 2000s computer games.

Serafina wrote:He doesn't fight unbelievable odds, he is not commanding a spaceship trough the maws of hell, he is not battling an ancient superbeing.

I don't know about that... It's not every day you get to beat Alex DeLarge and Emperor Caligula all in one package

Ghost Rider wrote:And why does Data go "I pissed in my pants!!!" because of emotions? Eh, I'll just say Picard's weepiness broke him.

I always assumed that since Data apparently records everything that happens, eight years of memories with emotional impact would now be cropping up in his head. Of course, that implies a great deal of programming stupidity on Soong's part.

Marcus Aurelius wrote:

Skylon wrote:
A feature film with a far greater budget, and effects done by ILM couldn't come up with something closer to that?

Well, no, since B5 used CGI exclusively for space battles but Generations and the Star Trek shows continued to use mostly models. It was a very clear decision on the part of JMS and the rest of B5 creative team: they knew that CGI would become outdated much quicker, but it also allowed them to do stuff that they could have never done with miniature models considering the budget. That decision has stood the test of time; while the B5 first season SFX are badly outdated, the battle scenes still work dramatically, even if they look like late 1990s or early 2000s computer games.

The production crews of ST 2 and ST 6 did much better jobs creating dramatic battles than Generations on tight (for feature film) budgets. When you compare those films to Generations, which probably blew a ton of money on a pointless holodeck scene you got to wonder.

By closer to the early B5 battles, I meant dramatically. I wouldn't expect a fast paced, CGI dogfight-fest from a Star Trek film. Even with models Berman could have spent his money better. Or at least Moore and Braga could have written it to be a more compelling action scene.

That said it surprised me just how long Trek clung to models. The battle between the Defiant and Lakota in "Paradise Lost" was shot with models.

Skylon wrote: That said it surprised me just how long Trek clung to models. The battle between the Defiant and Lakota in "Paradise Lost" was shot with models.

I'm curious as to how they compared at the time with regard not just for cost, but also for time; I remember reading that on several occasions, Babylon 5's space effects were limited by the sheer rendering time necessary. If motion-control photography required less time but was more expensive due to the necessity of going in afterward and animating the phaser blasts and torpedoes, I could see Paramount preferring to spring for models. Alternately it could just be that they'd already amassed a lot of experience and inertia with models and it took a long time before they finally felt they could get superior results from CGI.


There's two things that boggle me about the Generations budget though:

- Paramount was apparently loathe to give them as much money as they'd initially wanted. Why? Alternately, where did all that $35M go? (How much did Shatner and Stewart take out of that figure?)

- I've heard it sometimes said that TMP was "disappointing" or even a "failure" because the final cost (which included the aborted Phase II) approached $35M. But according to Memory Alpha, TMP took home more than Generations. And Generations had to blow an extra ~$5M on reshooting the ending! Why isn't Generations branded a financial failure?

Skylon wrote:Compare this battle to what Babylon 5 offered up viewers earlier in 1994, the same year Generations was released, in the episode "Signs and Portents". Yeah, its shitty looking, especially sixteen years later, but damned if it isn't more exciting. With a shoe-string budget the episode had multiple fighters in dogfights, B5's never-before-seen defense grid shooting at crap, plus two new starship models for the episode (the Raider's carrier and the Shadow vessel).

A feature film with a far greater budget, and effects done by ILM couldn't come up with something closer to that?

Oh, and the protagonist didn't need to pull technobabble BS to win in said B5 episode. He drew his enemy into a murder-zone, caught in the middle of two fighter squadrons and the station's defense grid.

And this is why Babylon 5 wins for being my favorite Sci-Fi show of all time.

As to Uraniun235 for why Generations was never considered a financial failure. Because it made money. It was critically panned both by fans and actual film critics, but that didn't stop every Trekkie in the nation from going to see it opening day, when the Internet was still fresh and people didn't know any better. I mean Star Trek VI was a good film, and TNG was a good show, so there was a lot of high expectation for Generations opening week.

I guess the real question is, why is TMP considered a financial failure if Generations isn't?