Encouraging acts like this - is it immoral?

[Flight Recorder]

I've recently stumbled on this video. It is supposedly an ad for pest control... but what it essentially does, is encourage people to starve animals to death on these traps.

Would you consider this immoral?

I've no problems with killing pests, but I do have a problem with unnecessary cruelty like that. I mean, there is no purpose or reason to starve an animal to death on a trap - unless one had malicious intent. I can't really see how this "Catchmaster" company thought it would be a good idea to advertise such a disgusting product like that. Not to mention that it is especially creepy, I am to assume whoever made that video has some mental problems. Calm music and a soundtrack of laughing children in the background as it tells you to "Catch 'em Starve 'em" wouldn't really convince anyone to buy them (or would it?). But according to the description, it was used an example that the 'traps' work.

Your thoughts?

[Alyrium Denryle]

Yes. Yes it is. Hell, half the things listed on the "you can catch" list are not even pest species. There was a fucking dead skink there. Do you know how long it would take a skink to starve to death on one of those traps? Weeks. They can go for over a week without water for fuck's sake.

Oh, and I suppose carrion flies are not pest pest species...

[spaceviking]

I have a feeling this "commercial" was not actually made by the catch-master company

[Lagmonster]

I can't catch the video at work, but I can imagine.

Never leave an animal in a trap. Ever. Release it outdoors if it isn't seriously injured or kill it quickly if it is. With small animals, there are a number of ways to mercifully kill a wounded creature, depending on the tools at hand. With larger ones, you should call your city's animal control and they will handle it.

I realize that most city folk are squeamish about blood, but starving an animal to death is NOT a cleaner method. Get over your fear of gore and do the right thing.

[Zixinus]

My grandfather had a better solution than such things: they're called cats.

Seriously, when there were too many mice and rats and whatever around the village hospital, he just got more cats and didn't feed them much. Cue dead mouses dropped at grandmother's feet.
Plus, you can pet cats.

[Lagmonster]

My grandfather had a better solution than such things: they're called cats.

Seriously, when there were too many mice and rats and whatever around the village hospital, he just got more cats and didn't feed them much. Cue dead mouses dropped at grandmother's feet.
Plus, you can pet cats.

Like it or not, humans are more effective hunters than cats. We can kill more things, faster, less traumatically, and even if we aren't personally around to do it. And you can pet humans, or if they're cute enough, you can fuck them.

[Solauren]

Like it or not, humans are more effective hunters than cats. We can kill more things, faster, less traumatically, and even if we aren't personally around to do it. And you can pet humans, or if they're cute enough, you can fuck them.

Um, that's not hunting. That's TRAPPING. We're more effective killers then cats. Don't confuse the end result with the method.

Besides, cats are more cost effective. How much does it cost to birth, rear, and train a human to be an effective trapper/hunter/killer, vs the same number of cat that could be produced and trained during the same time period/cost?

[Zixinus]

Like it or not, humans are more effective hunters than cats. We can kill more things, faster, less traumatically, and even if we aren't personally around to do it. And you can pet humans, or if they're cute enough, you can fuck them.

Yeah, you can. However, humans need to eat more and unlike cats, have to be clothed or paid. Meanwhile, cats will do it for pretty much free (or at least, in exchange for the time and stuff required to get them housebroken and tame).

Humans can be very efficient killers of rodents if they put their minds to it, but this can mean using traps like above or poisons (sometimes on a large scale!) or many, many traps that are dangerous to non-rodents as well. Not all the methods are least-traumatic.

Cats have a tendency to play with their game, true. However, they don't let it starve for weeks either and they don't do anything that they wouldn't do in nature. Nor do they pollute the environment by poisons or traps.

[Flight Recorder]

Don't cats only "play" with their prey either to teach their kittens hunting skills, or because they are overfed and bored?

[Lagmonster]

Like it or not, humans are more effective hunters than cats. We can kill more things, faster, less traumatically, and even if we aren't personally around to do it. And you can pet humans, or if they're cute enough, you can fuck them.

Um, that's not hunting. That's TRAPPING. We're more effective killers then cats. Don't confuse the end result with the method.

It makes no difference; you could do either hunting, trapping, killing, or pest control better than a cat, because you are intelligent and can use technology.

Besides, cats are more cost effective. How much does it cost to birth, rear, and train a human to be an effective trapper/hunter/killer, vs the same number of cat that could be produced and trained during the same time period/cost?

We don't have babies for the same reasons that we take cats as pets, and when that kid grows up he's going to have the potential to eliminate several dozen cats' worth of mice. And this is leaving aside the fact that a human can be told to scour a house clean of pests whereas a cat can have no such extreme goal. Remember: This thread is talking about pest control, that is, the wholesale removal of a specific animal species from a specific location, and humans have that licked.

[Alyrium Denryle]

With cats, there is also significant damage to non-target species.

[Akhlut]

With cats, there is also significant damage to non-target species.

And significant danger to the cat itself, unless it is entirely indoors.

Anyway, a standard rat/mouse trap is especially effective, and one can even get T-rex/jaw traps instead, which are also incredibly effective, and safer for humans to use. They're also environmentally friendly, unlike poisons or cats.

[Alyrium Denryle]

With cats, there is also significant damage to non-target species.

And significant danger to the cat itself, unless it is entirely indoors.

Anyway, a standard rat/mouse trap is especially effective, and one can even get T-rex/jaw traps instead, which are also incredibly effective, and safer for humans to use. They're also environmentally friendly, unlike poisons or cats.

Of course there is also the good old standby of letting a bunch of rat snakes loose in your house with a basking light and a water bowl, but that is just me. But yeah, T rex traps would work. And of course, any rat trap should be put somewhere a small child wont get at it.

[eyexist]

The pest control company I work for favors glue boards over snap traps since it reduces the chance of getting sued due to a customer injuring their hands/feet, to catch multiple rodents on one trap, and to monitor for other pest activity (ants, spiders, roaches, etc). We usually use them indoors only. For the outdoors we use tin cats: steel boxes with one-way doors on either side. It catches them alive and in the event you catch a non-target species you can simply open the lid and set it free.

Besides, cats are more cost effective. How much does it cost to birth, rear, and train a human to be an effective trapper/hunter/killer, vs the same number of cat that could be produced and trained during the same time period/cost?

Well, it took six weeks for me to train and get certification to handle restricted use pesticides, rodenticides, and avicides in the state of Wisconsin. I'm not sure how many mice a cat can catch during a 30-day period, but setting aside the commercial properties I treat for vermin I hunt, trap and kill approximately 250 - 300 mice/rats a month. If we add in the commercial properties it is over 400.

[Flight Recorder]

The pest control company I work for favors glue boards over snap traps since it reduces the chance of getting sued due to a customer injuring their hands/feet, to catch multiple rodents on one trap, and to monitor for other pest activity (ants, spiders, roaches, etc). We usually use them indoors only. For the outdoors we use tin cats: steel boxes with one-way doors on either side. It catches them alive and in the event you catch a non-target species you can simply open the lid and set it free.

Lol, really? Suing over that? Would it not be their fault for stupidly putting their fingers in the trap? Unless they were barefoot, I don't really see the danger of hurting toes.

I hope your company doesn't encourage just to bin them alive, or just 'leave' them to expire like some other twats do. They should be banned, IMO. Too much cruel shit involving them burned into my mind for them to be justifiable.

[eyexist]

Lol, really? Suing over that? Would it not be their fault for stupidly putting their fingers in the trap? Unless they were barefoot, I don't really see the danger of hurting toes.

Well, that's the thing. Most people do walk around barefoot in their house. They could easily forget where I placed a trap and step on it. If a customer were to injure themselves on our products they will look for us to foot the bill.

I hope your company doesn't encourage just to bin them alive, or just 'leave' them to expire like some other twats do. They should be banned, IMO. Too much cruel shit involving them burned into my mind for them to be justifiable.

If I catch any vermin in my traps that happen to still be alive I usually give them a swift, merciful death. One of the first things they teach us is to implement a solution that will solve the pest problem efficiently without creating a dangerous environment for humans and domestic pets. Unfortunately that usually means a slow, agonizing death for vermin. Poison is formulated so the forager has enough time to taste it, confirm it's food, and bring it back to the nest long before it takes effect. The poison is then consumed by the others and in about two weeks they're all dead.

The chemicals that kill vermin instantly could cause chronic exposure in humans; killing you in weeks, if not days. If I had a choice to use slow acting poisons and traps which you would have less than 5% exposure to or a quick-acting poison which you would have 75% exposure I would use the former.

[Flight Recorder]

Well, that's the thing. Most people do walk around barefoot in their house. They could easily forget where I placed a trap and step on it. If a customer were to injure themselves on our products they will look for us to foot the bill.

Wouldn't it still be their fault though? I'd assume you guys would be covered for stuff like that?

If I catch any vermin in my traps that happen to still be alive I usually give them a swift, merciful death. One of the first things they teach us is to implement a solution that will solve the pest problem efficiently without creating a dangerous environment for humans and domestic pets. Unfortunately that usually means a slow, agonizing death for vermin. Poison is formulated so the forager has enough time to taste it, confirm it's food, and bring it back to the nest long before it takes effect. The poison is then consumed by the others and in about two weeks they're all dead.

The chemicals that kill vermin instantly could cause chronic exposure in humans; killing you in weeks, if not days. If I had a choice to use slow acting poisons and traps which you would have less than 5% exposure to or a quick-acting poison which you would have 75% exposure I would use the former.

Fair enough. Then it would be more acceptable if these kind of traps were only used by professionals, and they were checked on a regular basis. I do emphasise the latter, as chucking one of these things and coming back a week later to an animal that has starved to death is well... yeah... irresponsible/neglectful perhaps are the best words to use? Really no different to using a cage, and not checking up on it (I assume you DO check up on traps that keep animals alive, yeah?). Do you guys have an ethos that when trapping is concerned, that the manner in which it is to be killed should be as humane as possible?

What sits uneasy with me is that with these so called glue traps, they aren't checked often, if at all, giving the animal a very slow and painful death - when such a thing can be minimised and/or avoided. I do not think that's right if one has more humane alternatives available. And here's another question I'd like to ask you - with snap traps, don't you guys have specially designed 'stations' for them where only the animal can trigger them? That would certainly eliminate any accidental injury, and make it safe.

[eyexist]

Wouldn't it still be their fault though?

You would think so. For example a client wanted me to put out bait stations for her slab ants instead of me using a bait applicator. I advised her that dogs love the smell of ant bait and placing "bait pucks" near the baseboards will just give her dog incentive to eat it. She insisted, so I documented it and had her sign. Two weeks later she calls the office saying we poisoned her dog (the dog basically got indigestion from eating plastic. There's not enough ant poison in one station to kill a chihuahua, let alone a lab). Even though I had documentation my boss relented and paid the vet bill.

Fair enough. Then it would be more acceptable if these kind of traps were only used by professionals, and they were checked on a regular basis. I do emphasise the latter, as chucking one of these things and coming back a week later to an animal that has starved to death is well... yeah... irresponsible/neglectful perhaps are the best words to use? Really no different to using a cage, and not checking up on it (I assume you DO check up on traps that keep animals alive, yeah?). Do you guys have an ethos that when trapping is concerned, that the manner in which it is to be killed should be as humane as possible?

My traps get checked at least once a month, or sooner if a client calls about a mouse getting caught. Glue boards are one of the most useful tools in our arsenal due to the fact you can catch multiple mice and other pests as well. It's not restricted to one pest and you do not need to constantly reset/empty/clean the trap. Also leaving bait on a snap trap can draw in other pests, like flies and roaches. I hate to say it but the pest control industry is about as inhumane as one can get.

What sits uneasy with me is that with these so called glue traps, they aren't checked often, if at all, giving the animal a very slow and painful death - when such a thing can be minimised and/or avoided. I do not think that's right if one has more humane alternatives available. And here's another question I'd like to ask you - with snap traps, don't you guys have specially designed 'stations' for them where only the animal can trigger them? That would certainly eliminate any accidental injury, and make it safe.

You're not guaranteed to get an instant kill with a snap trap, either. What if it closes on it's midsection? The mouse cannot move, and if it doesn't suffocate it will eventually die of starvation. We don't carry them, but there are traps on the market which kill rodents instantly with an electric shock.

[Alyrium Denryle]

My traps get checked at least once a month, or sooner if a client calls about a mouse getting caught. Glue boards are one of the most useful tools in our arsenal due to the fact you can catch multiple mice and other pests as well. It's not restricted to one pest and you do not need to constantly reset/empty/clean the trap. Also leaving bait on a snap trap can draw in other pests, like flies and roaches. I hate to say it but the pest control industry is about as inhumane as one can get.

Once a month?

Frankly, when I trap animals (and yes, I have to sometimes) the traps get checked at least twice daily, and that is when the weather is not unseasonably hot. If you put a live mammal trap outside and only check it once a month there is no point in even saying that you release non-target species. You might as well kill them too.

Perhaps people just need to get over the existence of certain animals. I can understand rodents, disease carriers, and large beehives... but god damn.

[Seggybop]

Perhaps people just need to get over the existence of certain animals. I can understand rodents, disease carriers, and large beehives... but god damn.

qft. The suffering inflicted upon these 'vermin' for the sake of human convenience is abominable. It may be unavoidable in some circumstances to get rid of them, but if you lack the willingness to actually deal with the problem responsibly, you should just deal with them being there.

by the way, is releasing a rat snake indoors actually a viable plan? I considered doing that at one point, but I was worried about the snake getting lost or stuck somewhere and finding it months later as a dessicated ribbon ;_;

[eyexist]

My traps get checked at least once a month, or sooner if a client calls about a mouse getting caught. Glue boards are one of the most useful tools in our arsenal due to the fact you can catch multiple mice and other pests as well. It's not restricted to one pest and you do not need to constantly reset/empty/clean the trap. Also leaving bait on a snap trap can draw in other pests, like flies and roaches. I hate to say it but the pest control industry is about as inhumane as one can get.

Once a month?

Frankly, when I trap animals (and yes, I have to sometimes) the traps get checked at least twice daily, and that is when the weather is not unseasonably hot. If you put a live mammal trap outside and only check it once a month there is no point in even saying that you release non-target species. You might as well kill them too.

Perhaps people just need to get over the existence of certain animals. I can understand rodents, disease carriers, and large beehives... but god damn.

The only other rodent that is small enough to fit inside a tin cat entrance is a vole, which isn't a target species but is still considered a pest due to it's diet of young plants and grass roots.

[Alyrium Denryle]

My traps get checked at least once a month, or sooner if a client calls about a mouse getting caught. Glue boards are one of the most useful tools in our arsenal due to the fact you can catch multiple mice and other pests as well. It's not restricted to one pest and you do not need to constantly reset/empty/clean the trap. Also leaving bait on a snap trap can draw in other pests, like flies and roaches. I hate to say it but the pest control industry is about as inhumane as one can get.

Once a month?

Frankly, when I trap animals (and yes, I have to sometimes) the traps get checked at least twice daily, and that is when the weather is not unseasonably hot. If you put a live mammal trap outside and only check it once a month there is no point in even saying that you release non-target species. You might as well kill them too.

Perhaps people just need to get over the existence of certain animals. I can understand rodents, disease carriers, and large beehives... but god damn.

The only other rodent that is small enough to fit inside a tin cat entrance is a vole, which isn't a target species but is still considered a pest due to it's diet of young plants and grass roots.

Bear in mind, the traps I have always used are for somewhat larger mammals (largish rats were the max size) and aquatic stuff... but dare I ask, does anything other than rodents ever get in those traps?

[Lagmonster]

by the way, is releasing a rat snake indoors actually a viable plan? I considered doing that at one point, but I was worried about the snake getting lost or stuck somewhere and finding it months later as a dessicated ribbon ;_;

Speaking from an agricultural point of view, any farmer who asked to introduce a new predator species to his property as a form of pest control would be, besides in violation of several environmental and food safety laws, a loon.

[eyexist]

Bear in mind, the traps I have always used are for somewhat larger mammals (largish rats were the max size) and aquatic stuff... but dare I ask, does anything other than rodents ever get in those traps?

I've never caught anything other than field mice and voles in tin cats. The laws vary from state to state, but in the state of Wisconsin we may only use lethal products outdoors that will ONLY kill what the state deems a "pest." Rats, for example are most certainly pests. Anything big enough to catch and kill a rat is big enough to catch and kill chipmunks and squirrels, so I cannot use bait stations, rat traps or glue boards outside ( in fact, if I were ever found to have killed wildlife, whether directly or indirectly, I could be fined a dollar amount per animal, have my license revoked, and spend up to a year in prison).

There are instances where non-target species could become pests. Beneficial bees, like honeybees and bumblebees become a pest only if they are found to be a direct threat to the health and well-being of the property owners. An example would be if they were nesting in your walls ,spilling into your kitchen and you are deathly allergic.

[Seggybop]

by the way, is releasing a rat snake indoors actually a viable plan? I considered doing that at one point, but I was worried about the snake getting lost or stuck somewhere and finding it months later as a dessicated ribbon ;_;

Speaking from an agricultural point of view, any farmer who asked to introduce a new predator species to his property as a form of pest control would be, besides in violation of several environmental and food safety laws, a loon.

Indeed, but rat snakes are native to my area and presumably to Alyrium's as well, so that wouldn't be an issue, unless you consider "indoors" to be a foreign environment with a separate ecosystem.