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Yes, I made it first:

Did you mean to misspell the title?

I was trying to resist the Phoenix Wright joke... and then they had a court case.

Damnit, man.

Great review. Especially with the closing reference to Voyager.

Bob the Gunslinger wrote:Did you mean to misspell the title?

No, of course not, the real title for this episode is "Turnabout Intruder" and I can't edit it now.

And I've more misphrased the title than misspelled it.

Thanas wrote:Great review. Especially with the closing reference to Voyager.

I cracked up on that one too

And they REALLY ended TOS with that episode? Sometimes i really have to wonder what the writers were thinking...

It might have been the execs, not the writers who slotted the episode there as they did. Chuck mentioned episodes with later chronological dates.

And yes, the reference to Janeway at the end was golden.

And they REALLY ended TOS with that episode? Sometimes i really have to wonder what the writers were thinking...

At the time series weren't necessarily aired in-order. TOS' schedule was haphazard at best.

Bounty wrote:

And they REALLY ended TOS with that episode? Sometimes i really have to wonder what the writers were thinking...

At the time series weren't necessarily aired in-order. TOS' schedule was haphazard at best.

Ah, that makes sense.

Still, that episode seems extremely out of place for TOS. Granted, i never watched TOS and the rest of Trek consistently - only a few episodes here and there. Which actually means that about 2/3 of Chucks reviews are about episodes i never saw before - which is quite funny. Either way - wasn't TOS supposed to be modern and open-minded on such issues at that time? Then how the fuck could they write something like this?

And unlike last time, Fictionmania is no excuse here, due to a lack of Internet in those dark ages

Whoa! Roddenberry actually wanted Kirk and Spock to be lovers? Now I finally know the origin of that particular piece of slash fiction.

Serafina wrote: Still, that episode seems extremely out of place for TOS. Granted, i never watched TOS and the rest of Trek consistently - only a few episodes here and there. Which actually means that about 2/3 of Chucks reviews are about episodes i never saw before - which is quite funny. Either way - wasn't TOS supposed to be modern and open-minded on such issues at that time? Then how the fuck could they write something like this?

And unlike last time, Fictionmania is no excuse here, due to a lack of Internet in those dark ages

TOS was open-minded enough that their only recurring female characters were a glorified telephone operator and a nurse... Which in the 1960s was still quite progressive, especially considering that the Starfleet in TOS is very much a military organization.

However, I like to think that Chuck may have slightly misunderstood this episode. it's not difficult to find writings of strong and intelligent women from history which lament the fact that there are things they can not do or accomplish in society just because they are women. It is quite conceivable that such frustration might turn into self-hatred. "The indignity of being a woman" is not actually misogynistic comment but expression of frustration over the constraints and differential treatment a woman gets in a male dominated society. Instead of hating the oppression she has started to hate her sex.

The problem with this episode is that she is also batshit crazy, which while probably intended as the a comment on how the patriarchal society has driven her to madness, also makes her look weak in a way that is typical to the patriarchal view of female psyche. Shatner's overboard performance does not help either. I would classify this episode as well-intended but quite flawed in execution.

Oh, i get her being unhappy about her sex at first - that's not bad.
But her behaviour after she is in Kirks body IS bad. Because it really just says that she is crazy and that only crazy person would complain about such things.

What they should have done IMO is this:
Make her a highly successfull scientist (or something) who was held back from making an important breaktrough (or whatever) due to her sex for a long time now. Thus, she is unhappy with her sex. Since she sees no other way, she does the body switching and then goes on and tries to finish her resarch project. The drama in that version can come from
-Kirk facing the challenges as a woman - being treated differently by his comrades etc. This could continue after the switching is exposed - he is still treated differently.
-Kirk learning a lesson from this.
-Meanwhile, she can be struggling with some of the stereotypes and expectations men have to face.
-Add tension by making switching back difficult

In my oppinion, that version has enough drama and tension, and it does not have to present either side as weak or inferior or anything. If done right, of course - but at least it purges the inherent problems of the script.

Marcus Aurelius wrote: TOS was open-minded enough that their only recurring female characters were a glorified telephone operator and a nurse... Which in the 1960s was still quite progressive, especially considering that the Starfleet in TOS is very much a military organization.

Also, the original TOS pilot (the one where Pike was the captain) had a female first officer, didn't it? Of course, they eventually abandoned that idea. But if you go into guest stars, one episode where Kirk is on trial featured a female lawyer. I could probably find more examples, but those are the ones that come most readily to mind.

The Romulan Republic wrote: Also, the original TOS pilot (the one where Pike was the captain) had a female first officer, didn't it? Of course, they eventually abandoned that idea. But if you go into guest stars, one episode where Kirk is on trial featured a female lawyer. I could probably find more examples, but those are the ones that come most readily to mind.

Yes. Truth is that TOS was probably about as progressive as you could possibly hope from a 1960s show. In comparison TNG was more conservative, especially after season 1 when Tasha Yar was no longer part of the crew. The roles of counselor (essentially a scifi psychologist) and medical doctor were at that point already quite acceptable for women. In addition Dr Crusher was a lot more bland character than McCoy had been in TOS and in many occasions her role as the mother of Weasel Wesley was emphasized by the storylines. DS9 did this much better and was the first Star Trek show with something approaching truly equal gender roles; it had two women in truly central roles and the role of a parent was given to a man, who was also the commander of the station.

Voyager of course was such a clusterfuck with Janeway written as borderline sociopath that in Enterprise they went right back to TNG style gender distribution. Ostensibly because it was a prequel and had to be compatible with TOS, but really because the idiot writers of Voyager did not know how to write to a female captain, which fouled the idea of central female characters in the eyes of the predominantly male ST audience. Not that female fans of ST liked her any better in general.

Bounty wrote:

And they REALLY ended TOS with that episode? Sometimes i really have to wonder what the writers were thinking...

At the time series weren't necessarily aired in-order. TOS' schedule was haphazard at best.

It was however, in addition to being the final episode aired, the last one produced. Stardates are a sketchy way to tell what was intended where in the timeline as well. "Spock's Brain" which was aired first in season 3 (in spite of being produced later) has a higher stardate than the first produced episode of the season, "Spectre of the Gun".

You have to wonder just when the writers got word the series was officially being canned. There are some little notes to suggest while writing this they knew. In addition to Spock's little bit about their experiences, there are a couple references to earlier episodes, the "General Order 4" being the only case the death penalty is allowed, is a nod to "The Menagerie", I think there may have been a couple others in the episode, but its been awhile since I sat and watched it.

The Romulan Republic wrote:

Marcus Aurelius wrote: TOS was open-minded enough that their only recurring female characters were a glorified telephone operator and a nurse... Which in the 1960s was still quite progressive, especially considering that the Starfleet in TOS is very much a military organization.

Also, the original TOS pilot (the one where Pike was the captain) had a female first officer, didn't it? Of course, they eventually abandoned that idea. But if you go into guest stars, one episode where Kirk is on trial featured a female lawyer. I could probably find more examples, but those are the ones that come most readily to mind.

The series abandoned it but not for the reason you might think. NBC was wholly supportive of having a female first officer - they just didn't like Roddenberry's choice of actress for the role.

Temujin wrote:Whoa! Roddenberry actually wanted Kirk and Spock to be lovers? Now I finally know the origin of that particular piece of slash fiction.

Not unless someone's got a source for that; Roddenberry went out of his way to have Kirk deny it in the TMP novelization.

Serafina wrote:And they REALLY ended TOS with that episode? Sometimes i really have to wonder what the writers were thinking...

TOS was always scrambling for scripts to shoot. It's not like they would have had any grand ideas in a drawer that they were holding on to for "season finales" (and I'm not sure they really did those on 60s television anyway - at least, the previous two TOS seasons didn't) or series finales or what have you - as soon as they had a good idea, they developed it and shot it as soon as they could.

Anyway, Turnabout Intruder was aired a few months after the series was canceled, during reruns - so initially, it appeared that TOS had ended with All Our Yesterdays.

Uraniun235 wrote: The series abandoned it but not for the reason you might think. NBC was wholly supportive of having a female first officer - they just didn't like Roddenberry's choice of actress for the role.

I remember hearing/reading somewhere that he was told he had to choose between the alien character (Spock) and the female first officer. I don't know if this is true though. I can't remember where I heard/read this.

The Romulan Republic wrote:

Uraniun235 wrote: The series abandoned it but not for the reason you might think. NBC was wholly supportive of having a female first officer - they just didn't like Roddenberry's choice of actress for the role.

I remember hearing/reading somewhere that he was told he had to choose between the alien character (Spock) and the female first officer. I don't know if this is true though. I can't remember where I heard/read this.

Well, if that is true he certainly made the right choice. As for the obvious idea of combining them, I don't think the 1960s would have been ready for a female character striving to be logical. The notion of women as the more emotional gender is deeply rooted in our society and women not behaving in a certain emotional way are often described as "cold bitches" etc.

Marcus Aurelius wrote:

The Romulan Republic wrote:

Uraniun235 wrote: The series abandoned it but not for the reason you might think. NBC was wholly supportive of having a female first officer - they just didn't like Roddenberry's choice of actress for the role.

I remember hearing/reading somewhere that he was told he had to choose between the alien character (Spock) and the female first officer. I don't know if this is true though. I can't remember where I heard/read this.

Well, if that is true he certainly made the right choice. As for the obvious idea of combining them, I don't think the 1960s would have been ready for a female character striving to be logical. The notion of women as the more emotional gender is deeply rooted in our society and women not behaving in a certain emotional way are often described as "cold bitches" etc.

NBC had no problems with the Number One character. Their problem was with Majel Barrett, partly for her performance, but also with her relationship with Roddenberry. The tale of the network being too stodgy and conservative to accept a strong woman as a leading character is just bullshit peddled by Roddenberry to make himself look better.

Spock was more troubling to NBC, as their Sales division was convinced that the Bible Belt would freak out over his pointed ears and eyebrows. NBC was initially opposed to him, and eventually allowed him on the condition that he not be too heavily focused on. This instantly changed when they received actual viewer feedback to Spock, which was very positive; they then immediately urged for more and more emphasis on Spock.

I'm drawing from Inside Star Trek for this, by the way. It should be required reading for any TOS fan.

I'd love to read it, but it's not exactly in print anymore.

Stofsk wrote:I'd love to read it, but it's not exactly in print anymore.

On a related note, is there a good TV documentary about the making of TOS? And by good I mean something like Monty Python: Almost the Truth - The Lawyers Cut and not the typical mutual praisefest bullshit most American "Making of" documents and the like are. Memory Alpha has a list of documentaries, but not really reviews about them apart from external review links for some. Well, most of the older ones are probably not available on DVD anyway.

Uraniun235 wrote: NBC had no problems with the Number One character. Their problem was with Majel Barrett, partly for her performance, but also with her relationship with Roddenberry. The tale of the network being too stodgy and conservative to accept a strong woman as a leading character is just bullshit peddled by Roddenberry to make himself look better.

Spock was more troubling to NBC, as their Sales division was convinced that the Bible Belt would freak out over his pointed ears and eyebrows. NBC was initially opposed to him, and eventually allowed him on the condition that he not be too heavily focused on. This instantly changed when they received actual viewer feedback to Spock, which was very positive; they then immediately urged for more and more emphasis on Spock.

Very interesting. Not sure what that says that in the 60s, Spock was deemed so politically incorrect.

Marcus Aurelius wrote:

Stofsk wrote:I'd love to read it, but it's not exactly in print anymore.

On a related note, is there a good TV documentary about the making of TOS? And by good I mean something like Monty Python: Almost the Truth - The Lawyers Cut and not the typical mutual praisefest bullshit most American "Making of" documents and the like are. Memory Alpha has a list of documentaries, but not really reviews about them apart from external review links for some. Well, most of the older ones are probably not available on DVD anyway.

Is this it?

Yep, that's it. Great book, really fun to read.