2 Shot, Officer Killed On HMS Astute

[FSTargetDrone]

Story:

One dead, one wounded after shooting aboard nuclear sub

Serviceman arrested after incident involving fellow Royal Navy personnel on British vessel

updated 53 minutes ago 2011-04-08T 19:27:23

LONDON — Two Royal Navy personnel were shot, one fatally, on board a British nuclear-powered submarine in port on Friday and a serviceman was arrested on suspicion of murder, officials said.

The second person shot on board the submarine Astute was taken to hospital and was in a stable condition following the incident at the southern English port of Southampton, police added.

One man was arrested following the incident, which took place at around 12:10 p.m. local time (7:10 a.m. ET). Police said it was not related to terrorism and there was no risk to the public.

"Two Royal Navy personnel have been involved in a firearms incident at Southampton docks," Britain's defense ministry said in a statement. "Sadly, one has now died as a result of his injuries."

Police added that "a man, also a member of the Royal Navy, was arrested at the scene on suspicion of murder."

The Telegraph newspaper reported the dead man was an officer and that he was shot by an enlisted man during a guard handover.

The suspect "got into an argument then just went crazy and began shooting people. He has not served in Afghanistan so it doesn't appear to be related to combat stress like PTSD (post traumatic stress disorder)," a source told The Telegraph.

BBC News reported that a crew member was overpowered by others after the shooting.

'Traumatic experience'

Southampton City Council said the council's leader Royston Smith, city mayor Carol Cunio and chief executive Alistair Neill were touring the vessel at the time of the shooting.

"We can confirm they are safe and unharmed and should be coming off and taken away by car soon. They have clearly been through a traumatic experience," the council said in a statement.

The 7,500-ton vessel is the first of a new class of British nuclear-powered submarines that will be the largest and most powerful attack submarines ever built for the Royal Navy.

Commissioned last August, it does not carry nuclear weapons.

Brian Cedar, who lives nearby, told the BBC he saw at least six people carry a stretcher down the gangway from the submarine to an ambulance.

"If you can have a shooting like this on a nuclear submarine it is worrying," he said.

The $1.64 billion submarine, which has a crew of 98, arrived in Southampton on Wednesday from its base in Faslane, Scotland, for an informal five-day visit.

During the stay, it was not due to be open to the public although civic leaders, sea cadets, Scouts and school and college parties had been invited on board.

The Astute ran aground off the coast of northwest Scotland last October and had to be towed free after becoming snagged on rocks during a sea trial. Its captain later was relieved of his command and given a job elsewhere.

The Associated Press and Reuters contributed to this report.

This may be a dumb question, but are guards on submarines normally equipped with firearms? Or was this because the vessel was in port?

[Illuminatus Primus]

There are definitely firearms equipped aboard.

[Zaune]

I believe it's SOP for all Royal Navy vessels to have an armed sentry on deck while in port outside one of their own facilities.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Well this sucks.

Incidentally, why did the article feel the need to stress that HMS Astute doesn't carry nuclear weapons?

[Pelranius]

Story:

The suspect "got into an argument then just went crazy and began shooting people. He has not served in Afghanistan so it doesn't appear to be related to combat stress like PTSD (post traumatic stress disorder)," a source told The Telegraph.

Well, I obviously don't have first hand experience but isn't being locked away under water on a submarine for months at an end still pretty stressful (though not on the level of being posted to a forward fire base)?

RN screening checks should weed out people who can't hack it, but something is bound to slip through sooner or later.

[Isolder74]

Because people love assuming that Nuclear Submarine = Boomer Sub.

[Zaune]

Incidentally, why did the article feel the need to stress that HMS Astute doesn't carry nuclear weapons?

I won't be so crass as to embed a YouTube video of the relevant scene from The Hunt For Red October, but some people in this country might be under the impression that shooting at a nuclear warhead will cause it to go off.

[Sea Skimmer]

The point of that part of Hunt For Red October was the guy could still explode the warheads conventional HE and the missile fuel, destroying the ship, not that a nuke was going to going off. The movie made that more ambiguous then the book, but I’m still pretty sure they never say it would be nuclear. A nuke shouldn’t undergo a chain reaction if hit by gunfire; that doesn’t mean it can’t still explode in other ways which are very nasty at close range as well as spreading contamination; though safety on modern western warheads is now very high. The commies… who knows.

A sub always needs guns since if nothing else, the crypto gear on the radios is more then classified enough to demand a minimal standard of armed protection be available. Also the nuke reactor, and the torpedoes and sonar.

[Zaune]

The point of that part of Hunt For Red October was the guy could still explode the warheads conventional HE and the missile fuel, destroying the ship, not that a nuke was going to going off. The movie made that more ambiguous then the book, but I’m still pretty sure they never say it would be nuclear.

Indeed, although I had to point that out to someone at work when the story came up on a local radio news bulletin that was somewhat short on detail.

[Terralthra]

Even the film tries to make that clear, doesn't it? The dialogue includes "Some things in here don't react well to bullets," but it also includes:

Jack Ryan: He can't launch a missile...!
Marko Ramius: No, but he can blow one up.

It's obvious to me at least that Ramius means he can blow up the propellant, but the warhead itself. If he meant the warhead, he'd have said "set one off," or some such.

[PeZook]

Man, that sub can't get a break...one more incident and it will gain a nice reputation

[Zaune]

More information from Sky News via Yahoo

A council leader who wrestled a gunman to the ground, after he killed a Royal Navy officer and wounded another, said he does not "feel like a hero".

Southampton City Council leader Royston Smith was visiting the submarine with other local dignitaries while it was berthed at the Eastern Docks on a five-day official visit to the city.

Mr Smith, a 46-year-old former RAF engineer, said he wrestled the gunman to the ground and helped disarm him but downplayed his heroic actions.

He said afterwards: "I don't feel like a hero, I wish it hadn't happened."

The dramatic scenes unfolded during a civic visit on board HMS Astute as it was docked in the Hampshire port at around noon on Friday.

A Royal Navy serviceman was arrested at the scene on suspicion of murder and remains in custody.

Hampshire Police are conducting an investigation into the shootings in co-operation with Ministry of Defence (MoD) police and naval provosts.

Sources said that Lieutenant Commander Ian Molyneux, in charge of the vessel's missiles and torpedoes was killed in the gun attack, while Lieutenant Commander Chris Hodge survived.

The wounded officer remains in hospital where he was said to be in a stable condition.

Mr Smith described how he "wrestled" the gunman to the ground in the submarine's control room as he attempted to stop him.

Sources said the gunman, later identified as a 22-year-old able seaman, was wearing body armour and camouflage gear and due to start gangway security duty.

"It's awful for the boys on the submarine. They will never forget the events of today," Mr Smith said.

Council leader Mr Smith, who is married with a 19-year-old daughter, said he was about five yards from the gunman when he returned to the control room and opened fire again.

"I then took the decision that if that bullet hadn't hit me, one was about to and, if not me, anyone and everyone else," he said.

"I charged at him, pushed him against the wall and, at the same time got hold of his weapon. At that point I think he fired shot number five.

"We had a tussle and I think I was shouting quite a lot. My instinct was to make myself scary.

He added that a group of schoolchildren had left the submarine shortly before the incident happened.

The MoD said the shooting was not terrorist-related and there was no threat to the wider public.

It is understood that the shooting was carried out with an SA80 service rifle.

After Mr Smith's quick action it is understood the gunman was grabbed by other naval personnel who handed him over to MoD police who were there as part of the civic visit.

He was then transferred to Hampshire police officers when they arrived minutes later.

Sources said the motive for the shooting was unclear but played down the possibility of post-traumatic stress disorder being a factor.

[Iroscato]

IIRC, they use submarines to test people on how well they would cope on a long-term space flight. Personally, it would drive me fucking nuts. I'm not saying I'm rooting for the gunman, but I can certainly see why he would lose it.

[Captain Seafort]

Man, that sub can't get a break...one more incident and it will gain a nice reputation

One more? I wouldn't be surprised if she's getting a reputation as an unlucky boat as it is.

[Lonestar]

IIRC, they use submarines to test people on how well they would cope on a long-term space flight. Personally, it would drive me fucking nuts. I'm not saying I'm rooting for the gunman, but I can certainly see why he would lose it.

What? No they don't. And USN Sailors deploy more frequently and longer underwater than RN ones do, and we've(yet) to see a USN topside rover flip his shit and go on a killing spree.

[Knife]

Two things;

When dealing with PTSD, it really doesn't matter what the 'stressor' is/was. Sure, we can sit on the outside and say, "Sitting in a sub for 6 months isn't as bad as front line combat." but that's beside the point of PTSD. All it takes is something stressful enough for the victim to try to bury it subconsciously and have adverse affects of that. EMT's, cops, and Doctors and Nurses can get it too, and they are not on the 'front lines' in Afghanistan either. It's not a 'horrors of war' thing, it's a horror thing.

Second, I assume cops were called, not because they have guns too, rather that they may be using a civilian court system for such encounters than a military tribunal. No saying that they are, but it is a possibility. I would guess that a serviceman on serviceman violence like this would be a military issue, but they're not us, so perhaps they think different.

[Dartzap]

As it was at a British port, the local police force have jurisdiction - the subs basically been impounded as a crime scene , whilst the SOCA's have a shufty. The Red Caps will probably be involved as well.

As for the course - possibly he had recently been told he was going to be made redundant by the MoD cuts, but who knows?

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

As it was at a British port, the local police force have jurisdiction - the subs basically been impounded as a crime scene , whilst the SOCA's have a shufty. The Red Caps will probably be involved as well.

As for the course - possibly he had recently been told he was going to be made redundant by the MoD cuts, but who knows?

Eh? Why are civilians even allowed to "impound" a piece of extremely sensitive equipment?

[Steel]

Sky news just said he was not suffering from PTSD. They didn't give any alternative explaination for why he might have done it though.

[Phantasee]

As it was at a British port, the local police force have jurisdiction - the subs basically been impounded as a crime scene , whilst the SOCA's have a shufty. The Red Caps will probably be involved as well.

As for the course - possibly he had recently been told he was going to be made redundant by the MoD cuts, but who knows?

Eh? Why are civilians even allowed to "impound" a piece of extremely sensitive equipment?

It might have something to do with that crazy idea of civilian control of the military?

[Dartzap]

That and it was docked at a civil port as well. If it happened at Faslane, I doubt you would have heard even half as much.

[Zaune]

Also, the several counts of attempted murder with which the perpetrator will probably be charged include at least one civilian, which is something he'll have to answer in the Crown Court. I also have an idea the Royal Military Police use the local force's CSI team rather than handling it in-house where they can for budget reasons, and to more easily counter allegations of a cover-up.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Also, the several counts of attempted murder with which the perpetrator will probably be charged include at least one civilian, which is something he'll have to answer in the Crown Court. I also have an idea the Royal Military Police use the local force's CSI team rather than handling it in-house where they can for budget reasons, and to more easily counter allegations of a cover-up.

I dunno, but a submarine where practically everything in there is top secret, isn't exactly something you would let some random detective with no security clearance board at all.

[Shroom Man 777]

Well, the guy visiting the sub who wrestled the gunman was a civilian, and the article says that a group of school children also visited the sub.

[Lord Woodlouse]

Well, the guy visiting the sub who wrestled the gunman was a civilian, and the article says that a group of school children also visited the sub.

Pfft, the school kids were GCHQ agents. :p