Portable Energy Device that can power a home

[Kodiak]

So I got a call from my friend this week-

His father is a wealthy business man down in Ensenada, Mexico, who was approached by two brothers/inventors about a new product they have. Here's what I've been told about the device:

a) It's the size of a large appliance i.e. washing machine, gas generator, refrigerator, etc
b) It can generate enough power for a single family home using.... something new and or unique
c) It would cost about $3000 retail

They want my friend's dad to help them in starting a company/finding investors for this device but he's a business man and his son, my friend, is in sales. That's where I come in. They've asked me to come and take a look at this contraption next week and see if it is, in fact, legit or if it's a scam. I agreed to come on the following conditions:
a) The brothers answer all my questions and disclose what makes this thing work
b) They sit me down and explain the physics of what it does
c) I get to look inside it- I'm not driving all the way down there just to look at a black box

I was hoping to solicit questions/suggestions from the board on some things I can ask the inventor brothers that would help me to know whether or not they're full of it. I know that's difficult since I don't know what they purport the device to be (fuel cell, cold fusion, solar something, or quantum) but I'd appreciate your help. I think the trip will be this coming Tuesday and I'll keep details here as well as anything new I'm told.

edit- I realize most of these things wind up being greatly exaggerated or outright fraud, but I'm a firm believer that leaps in technology can happen- even in Ensenada Mexico

[Lord Zentei]

So what is the physics of what it does? Have they offered any hints whatsoever? Often it's possible to sniff out scam artists from the red flags their pseudo-scientific buzz-phrases raise.

Don't base your answer on a single demonstration. Ask to see the insides (*).

This sounds very dubious, quite frankly.


(*) Some scam artists like these - if they are scam artists - will demand money, but pretend to be concerned about the security of their invention/data, even when making deals with people who are supposed to be financing them and even when they supposedly have a patent.

[GrandMasterTerwynn]

So I got a call from my friend this week-

His father is a wealthy business man down in Ensenada, Mexico, who was approached by two brothers/inventors about a new product they have. Here's what I've been told about the device:

Wow, you haven't even gotten to the device, and already, my bullshit detectors are screaming "DANGER WILL ROBINSON!"

a) It's the size of a large appliance i.e. washing machine, gas generator, refrigerator, etc
b) It can generate enough power for a single family home using.... something new and or unique
c) It would cost about $3000 retail

They want my friend's dad to help them in starting a company/finding investors for this device but he's a business man and his son, my friend, is in sales. That's where I come in. They've asked me to come and take a look at this contraption next week and see if it is, in fact, legit or if it's a scam. I agreed to come on the following conditions:
a) The brothers answer all my questions and disclose what makes this thing work
b) They sit me down and explain the physics of what it does
c) I get to look inside it- I'm not driving all the way down there just to look at a black box

This has "scam" written all over it. The fact that they're not willing to come right out and state what drives the device should be your first clue. The second clue is that your only hint is that it's something "new and or unique." This almost automatically puts it into the "perpetual motion device" category.

I predict that the following will happen when you start asking them questions.

They will give you a lot of buzz-phrases. They will likely involve the word "quantum." If the word "quantum" comes up in any way, the device is bullshit.

If the word "quantum" does not come up, then they will give you the runaround, stating "security" concerns. This is another clue that the device is bullshit.

I will be amazed if you get more than a cursory look inside under very, very, tightly controlled circumstances. They may demand some sort of security deposit before you are allowed to look inside. This will be a clue that it is a scam. The demonstration will take place under tightly controlled circumstances, and the would-be scammers will insist that they be the only ones to operate the device.

They will be vague about the physics. Again, the words "quantum" or "proprietary" will probably be liberally sprinkled in their pitch. They will probably make outrageous claims, like the device is somehow generating more energy than whatever the input power source is. This is, you guessed it, an indication that this is bullshit.

I was hoping to solicit questions/suggestions from the board on some things I can ask the inventor brothers that would help me to know whether or not they're full of it. I know that's difficult since I don't know what they purport the device to be (fuel cell, cold fusion, solar something, or quantum) but I'd appreciate your help. I think the trip will be this coming Tuesday and I'll keep details here as well as anything new I'm told.

I can tell you right now the whole setup smells fishier than an equatorial shark bait factory in the middle of summer.

edit- I realize most of these things wind up being greatly exaggerated or outright fraud, but I'm a firm believer that leaps in technology can happen- even in Ensenada Mexico

This is the sort of attitude the scammers will be hoping to see. If this was a legitimate technological leap ask yourself . . . would they be trying to promote it by approaching a random businessperson whose science advisor is a guy who's asking an internet webboard for advice on what sort of questions to ask?

[Lagmonster]

I wouldn't even set foot inside Mexico given how 'safe' it has been these days. That aside, I smell scam. Ask to see an abstract describing the device, or a business plan. Something that shows they have a plan for the money other than 'build these things'. If you can, ask in advance for the credentials of the inventors, and check them out. See what you can find out, if they have a website or history you can run a quick search on.

If they are unwilling to describe the device, find out in advance what tests and demonstrations they will propose, then dissect them to determine whether or not it would be a reasonable test of their claims (the simplest way to look at it is that a device that can 'power a home' should be reasonably expected to generate a certain amount of power over a certain amount of time).

If they are really playing the 'security' or 'you might steal our idea' card, try saying that, okay, you don't need to know how it works, but that you would at least need to know what the fuel source is. They might not be smart enough to realize that an answer like 'petrol' or 'fusion' or 'quantum' or 'gravity', that they might believe is vague enough to protect their secret, could be enough on its own to seriously compromise their scheme if it was bullshit, or at least give you an idea of what to compare its performance to.

[Hawkwings]

Scam before even finishing reading the description. Unless "new and unique" is something like a portable generator that runs on jet fuel.

Anyways, do you feel qualified to evaluate the science and the physics behind this contraption? If it truly is some quantum leap in technology, would you be able to recognize it? If your answer is even slightly "no", then why should you be playing with other people's money regarding this?

[Darth Wong]

They didn't even hint at how it works, eh? That's your clue right there.

[Purple]

Scam before even finishing reading the description. Unless "new and unique" is something like a portable generator that runs on jet fuel.

Anyways, do you feel qualified to evaluate the science and the physics behind this contraption? If it truly is some quantum leap in technology, would you be able to recognize it? If your answer is even slightly "no", then why should you be playing with other people's money regarding this?

Well, there is always the comedy option. If his cell phone can access the forum he can post it here. And there are plenty of people here (like Mr. Wong) would could turn this into quite a cross examination. If they are real, than that would definitively clear it up. If (far more likely) they are a scam at least you get a very good laugh whilst bashing them.

[Darth Wong]

I wouldn't go to Mexico unless I can drive a tank there for protection.

As for the device, I'd guess that these jokers hook it up to your house's electrical panel and while they're doing it, they monkey with the wiring so that they can make it look as if they can shut off the mains and the house still has power.

[Purple]

In that case, an interesting experiment would be to bring some sort of electric device (say a cell phone charger) and ask them to power it directly. If it can't do that than you don't even have to ask further.

[PeZook]

Allow me to be blunt: your wondering whether or not it is a hoax is like someone who receives a letter from Mr. Leon Gakumba, attorney at law who has a sum of 131 million dollars only that his deceased client, a Nigerian official, has left on an unnamed account, and asks other people if it's not bullshit

[Hamstray]

could be radioactive, like from a scavenged RTG or something, so bring along a geiger counter. could also be just running on hidden batteries, if running at all.

p.s.: oh wait maybe it's not a hoax and it actually just IS a gas generator

[Sea Skimmer]

At best its going to be one of those magnet based generators which can make a puny amount of power once they start turning for an absurd cost. More likely its gumball machine parts inside a washing machine, and at worst this is an attempt to nab someone for kidnap and ransom. That is not a joke. I wouldn't even take a tank into Mexico without mortars in support, Mexican Marines captured anti tank rockets from one cartel just last month.

If such a device had anything new or useful behind it the inventors would easily find venture capital from a major industrial concern to put it on the market.

[madd0ct0r]

i'm thinking capacitor bank.

charges while they hook it up to the house, then powers everything for a short while. no moving parts, nothing that can be safely opened.

[Lord Baal]

So it's not a super silent diesel generator or something like that? If is not something along those lines then I will call it bullshit, and as Sea Skimmer says, this could even turn out to be not only a scam but a trap to kidnap some one or something...!

[CaptainChewbacca]

It could be there was a translation problem and its a new 'spin' on an existing technology. I know Kodiak, he's not stupid. Finding ways to ask things 'politely' when in another country always helps.

[Singular Intellect]

This seems like a more credible source on portable home battery technology.

[Darth Wong]

It could be there was a translation problem and its a new 'spin' on an existing technology. I know Kodiak, he's not stupid. Finding ways to ask things 'politely' when in another country always helps.

Fair enough, he's an educated guy and presumably smarter than the average bear. We can only go on what he said in his first post though, and all he said was that it was a novel power source, with no other description or hint as to how it works. That sets off alarm bells.

[raptor3x]

Could it be a bloom box or something similar that acts as a natural gas fuel cell?

[Darth Wong]

According to hypertextbook.com, the average US home uses roughly 9 megawatt-hours of electrical energy per year. That averages out to roughly 1 kW power, or roughly 1.4 horsepower. Obviously, the peak draw would be higher, but if the device actually provides power instead of just being a gimmick box and a lot of showmanship, then that still gives you an idea of how long it can power the house on any given amount of fuel. For example, we can get roughly 130 MJ out of a gallon of gasoline, so it could sustain a 1 kW average draw for as long as 36 hours, depending on efficiency. A standard-pressure (for utility companies) cubic foot of natural gas would be able to power a 1kW average load for much less time: less than 20 minutes.

Producing a few kilowatts of energy is fairly easy, but making it last for any serious duration will generally require a lot of fuel, at least compared to the sizes of tanks people are accustomed to dealing with. However, I suppose it only had to last long enough for the scammers to get your money, if it lasts at all. As I said, it might be that they simply monkey with the wiring to make it look as if it's powering the house when it's not. The irregularity only shows up when the utility company notices that somebody bypassed the meter.

[Flagg]

Well I'm definitely in. I just need to wait for my Nigerian friend to wire me the millions I'm owed for tranferring him a few thousand and I'll invest right away!

[Kodiak]

It could be there was a translation problem and its a new 'spin' on an existing technology. I know Kodiak, he's not stupid. Finding ways to ask things 'politely' when in another country always helps.

Fair enough, he's an educated guy and presumably smarter than the average bear. We can only go on what he said in his first post though, and all he said was that it was a novel power source, with no other description or hint as to how it works. That sets off alarm bells.

Development - Since my friend's father told these guys he wants to bring an engineer or "science guy" as they put it they've been unreachable, unable to return phonecalls, and have otherwise disappeared. If they ever call back and I get to see it I'll be sure to post the event here

[PeZook]

Well, at least it's not a kidnapping plot, just a typical scam

[Lord Baal]

What a jerks! I really dislike people getting advantage of others like that, I hope they end up getting real jobs.

On another note, I would like to hear opinions for a power plant, even something along the lines of "do it yourself" for a small apartment (mine), since my national grid is getting a little... unstable out of the lack of maintenance.

See, around 70% of the national grid of my country is served by a single hydro electrical plant(the Guri Dam, and yeah, we are that vulnerable). This is all fine and cool with the environment, as long the damn dam gets enough attention and proper care, something which sadly has been lacking the past 12 years... so as you might imagine the things is operating in a really bad shape. Two years ago, when the power failures where at it's worst, the gov blame it on the long drought we got (like two years without significant precipitations), but now, that most of year our sky has been under a curtain of water, it's blatantly obvious that the dam is on the verge of collapsing, as a matter of fact they are rushing the construction of multiple diesel thermal plants dotting the country (and by rushing I mean they start a project, work a month or two and then run with the money to the hills).... now they are not only blacking out the cities two hours per day, but are actually putting fines to anyone that spend more energy that the last year! I.E. in august of 2010 we used up 1000 kWh, in august this year we used 1200 kWh, so that's a 20% difference, which they multiply by 10 and then gave me a 200% fine, this results that instead of paying the habitual 30 bucks (please take in account that for us that's not little money) I ended up paying 90 bucks...

Sorry if I sound too pessimistic, but I just wanted to put a frame to the question... Also, should I open a new thread for this?

By the way we use something around 1289 kWh per month (last lecture).

[LaCroix]

Well, depends on what kind of weather you have... Alternatively, you can always jack a bike up and use it to power a generator and a series of car batteries (hooked up to a converter). Gettin' power and doing something against the accumulating flab, you know...

[Lord Baal]

Hahaha... I might need the exercise! Well I live on a pretty tropical weather. However I live precisely in a borderline between a valley, a mountain ridge and a desert, and lately it's have been raining A LOT. However even if it rains for 3 or 4 hours we still get more sun hours everyday. If I have to quantify it, I would say 20% rains (mostly at night) and 80 percent clear time. Now if you are going solar, counting only the daylight I would say like 5% of rains and cloud and 95% of sun, however solar panels are really expensive... how much would I have to expend to generate at least 500 kWh per month?