StarDestroyer.Net BBS

Here's the first part.

I've only ever seen Nemesis once and man what a magnificent failure. This review is cinematic in the exact way the film is not.

I've been having problems finding the SF Debris podcast on Itunes. Is there some problem there?

So did anyone ever notice that during this movie Picard and Data escape in the mini-shuttle by bursting through a giant glass window in the back of the Scimitar?

I feel like they were just reaching for action cliches without any idea where to put them.

Man, that review reminded me just why I hated the movie.
It's the same story every time. Picard is not an action hero. The actor is NOT an action hero. He is typecast as the smart mentor dude. Live with it.

That and the bald pale Romulan kid is just plain messed up.

I have a confession to make. I actually somewhat enjoyed Nemesis the first time I saw it. (Of course, I was somewhere around twelve at the time and still impressed by anything with ray guns. )

Purple wrote:That and the bald pale Romulan kid is just plain messed up.

The first thing to bug me about Shinzon, even back at my early teens, was that the actor doesn't look anything like Picard apart from the bald head, and yet is supposed to be a clone. Admittedly many of people's features (such as height) are environmentally determined, but is it really that hard to find an actor who looks reasonably similar to Patrick Stewart?

StarSword wrote: The first thing to bug me about Shinzon, even back at my early teens, was that the actor doesn't look anything like Picard apart from the bald head, and yet is supposed to be a clone. Admittedly many of people's features (such as height) are environmentally determined, but is it really that hard to find an actor who looks reasonably similar to Patrick Stewart?

I thought the idea of having a Star Trek movie which had a goddamn clone in it, released the same year as Star Wars Episode II: Attack of the Clones was a pretty dumb move.

I'd like to think more people would respect a clone of Patrick Stewart than Tem Morrison but that's just me.

Chuck was so right though, all the actors look so old and tired in Nemesis.

And there's nothing better than Patrick Stewart grinning like a hillbilly while driving the Argo.

VF5SS wrote:I'd like to think more people would respect a clone of Patrick Stewart than Tem Morrison but that's just me.

Chuck was so right though, all the actors look so old and tired in Nemesis.

And there's nothing better than Patrick Stewart grinning like a hillbilly while driving the Argo.

Isn't it the only wheeled vehicle seen in Starfleet service throughout the entirely of ST, in all series and movies? In "All Good things..." there was what appeared to be a hovering personal vehicle when Picard and Geordi went to visit Data at Cambridge.

Kirk's stolen Corvette and his motorcycle don't count, but they may be the only other such vehicles every seen (in non time-travel back to Earth incidents, of course), as well as the other buggies Picard & Co were fleeing from.

Yeah I think so. Barring that one silly RTS nobody played which had phaser tanks.

But man it's great how the movie does nothing to justify the Argo at all. They show its transport shuttle landing ever so perfectly on the ground and then this useless jeep thing pops out. Maybe if B4 was hidden inside a cave or a forest it might make a little sense but what the hell. And then the aliens come after them in just regular dune buggies (that actually have windows) and shoot them up with no warning. How did these aliens even find them?

Poor Ron Perlman. He's much better as a vampire than a space ork.

FSTargetDrone wrote:

VF5SS wrote:I'd like to think more people would respect a clone of Patrick Stewart than Tem Morrison but that's just me.

Chuck was so right though, all the actors look so old and tired in Nemesis.

And there's nothing better than Patrick Stewart grinning like a hillbilly while driving the Argo.

Isn't it the only wheeled vehicle seen in Starfleet service throughout the entirely of ST, in all series and movies? In "All Good things..." there was what appeared to be a hovering personal vehicle when Picard and Geordi went to visit Data at Cambridge.

Kirk's stolen Corvette and his motorcycle don't count, but they may be the only other such vehicles every seen (in non time-travel back to Earth incidents, of course), as well as the other buggies Picard & Co were fleeing from.

In the new film, there was a police motorcycle type thing. Not a Starfleet vehicle (unless the Federation actually uses Starfleet for regular police work), but definitely still.

I read in a thread once that there is a reference in canon to Cardassian mechanized forces, but we never see them. If there is such a line, I'm not sure what episode its from.

The Romulan Republic wrote: In the new film, there was a police motorcycle type thing. Not a Starfleet vehicle (unless the Federation actually uses Starfleet for regular police work), but definitely still.

I read in a thread once that there is a reference in canon to Cardassian mechanized forces, but we never see them. If there is such a line, I'm not sure what episode its from.

I'd forgotten all about the cop's hoverbike, despite thinking of the Corvette!

Anyway, Nemesis is the only ST film I've only seen once. I own all of the others, except for TFF, but I'd still watch that again before watching Nemesis. I even own Nemesis on DVD. But I feel no need to ever see it again. It's really a shame that that is the last we are likely to see of the TNG crew.

StarSword wrote:I have a confession to make. I actually somewhat enjoyed Nemesis the first time I saw it. (Of course, I was somewhere around twelve at the time and still impressed by anything with ray guns. )

Purple wrote:That and the bald pale Romulan kid is just plain messed up.

The first thing to bug me about Shinzon, even back at my early teens, was that the actor doesn't look anything like Picard apart from the bald head, and yet is supposed to be a clone. Admittedly many of people's features (such as height) are environmentally determined, but is it really that hard to find an actor who looks reasonably similar to Patrick Stewart?

In a pinch, you could always have the clone of Patrick Stewarts character played by... Patrick Stewart. It would make it hard to have this climatic fistfight at the end (unless you employ a new-fangled technique called "stunt doubles") but that was silly anyway.

I'll say this about Nemesis, the deleted scense did a lot to redeem the movie in my eyes. They didn't actually explain or make sense of anything, like Shinzon's evil plan or Picard's semi-suicidal need to be an action hero after seven years of sitting on the bridge during away missions. But they did quite a bit to set up a theme for the movie, that life is a series of transitions. Friends grow up, grow apart, move away, or die and that's ok. You go out and make new friends. It was a great scene where Data goes to Picard because he can't understand how he can be happy and sad at the same time. I practically shouted at the screen YES! This is what the emotion chip always should have been, a vehicle for Data to explore his growing humanity, rather than a couple of cheap gags.

The scene I don't remember seeing in the thearter, where Riker leaves the Enterprise bridge for the last time, stopping to talk with Picard and dick around a bit with his replacement was bittersweet.



The movie is still shitty, and a low for the franchise, but its somewhat less shitty with the deleted scenes, it feels less random and pointless.

They shouldn't have cut it; more screen time should have been wasted on fanservice that doesn't drive the plot.

Stark wrote:They shouldn't have cut it; more screen time should have been wasted on fanservice that doesn't drive the plot.

What plot? Only if we subscribe to SFdebris' Darth Siduous Admiral "Psycho" Janeway theory does anything resembling a plot form up.

One scene that was deleted provided exposition on Shinzon's motivations. Even if he went vampire on Picard, his life would be short. He wanted to make history...make history by committing xeno...genocide and nigh exterminate humanity and destroy the Federation. If that were reincorporated it'd have helped the story.

Not by much, but Donotra convincing the Admiralty to turn on Shinzon and Picard's "I know how he thinks" (when he tells the crew Shinzon's target is Earth, without the benefit of any Bond Villain(TM) slips) would've had better context. Instead of the theatric presentation where it seems Donotra is pissy Shinzon wouldn't sleep with her, and it seems like Picard picked Shinzon's target out of his ass (the audience knows Shinzon's target, Picard doesn't.)

Ahriman238 wrote:
The movie is still shitty, and a low for the franchise, but its somewhat less shitty with the deleted scenes, it feels less random and pointless.

Seat-belt gag aside that was a decent scene. I also felt that Picard's last line in this deleted scene would have been a fine note to end the TNG crew's voyages.

I always found it ironic that Nemesis doesn't end with the Enterprise warping away, or going anywhere - but in dry-dock - like the franchise was after this film.

The Romulan Republic wrote:I read in a thread once that there is a reference in canon to Cardassian mechanized forces, but we never see them. If there is such a line, I'm not sure what episode its from.

DS9 ep. "The Wire". It's from one of Garak's lines to Bashir, in reference to Garak's work during the occupation.

StarSword wrote:The first thing to bug me about Shinzon, even back at my early teens, was that the actor doesn't look anything like Picard apart from the bald head, and yet is supposed to be a clone. Admittedly many of people's features (such as height) are environmentally determined, but is it really that hard to find an actor who looks reasonably similar to Patrick Stewart?

For long I couldn't even imagine how Patrick Stewart might have looked as a young man. The earliest movie I've seen featuring him was Dune, a thirty years old movie, and there he looked already like he does now (minus a few wrinkles).

But OMG, such pictures do exist!


OK, he really doesn't look like Tom Hardy, but he also doesn't look like James McAvoy either. SOD and all that.

He's such a handsome man~



Stewart is on the left.

Honestly at a glance I can see why they picked Tom Hardy because he looks close enough at a glance. I'm not sure it was the directing or if Tom Hardy isn't a good character actor like Johnny Depp but Shinzon never really acts like Picard outside of having a slight accent. And the space ork outfit doesn't make him seem like Picard either. Maybe if he was a Romulan who was cosmetically altered and conditioned to be like Picard it would have made more sense. More like an obsessive imitator than an angry kid.

Him acting nothing like Picard was kind of the point. Shinzon was a completely different person due the abusive upbringing he had to endure. Tormenting Picard with the possibility that he might have ended up the same had he experienced such a crappy childhood was arguably one of the movie's central ideas.

I however think that this might have been better expressed if Stewart had acted for two instead.

Two things I really liked in this review.

First, thanks to Chuck's work its pretty clear that Nemesis was entirely Janeways plan to take over the Federation and conquer the universe. All the pieces fit together perfectly. Only the "Benjamin Sisko's Motherfucking Pimp Hand" (captained by Sisko of course) can stop Janeway.

Second, Shinzon's character. Chuck pointed out just how incompetent he was. But in ways where it was almost as if he were deliberately sabotaging his own effort. Supposedly Nemesis was about what Picard might have become had he not had the same life. I find it would have been very interesting if Shinzon was subconsciously sabotaging his own efforts because deep down he had the same deep moral character that Picard had. And that the Viceroy was simply manipulating Shinzon.

Chuck also made a very good note about how First Contact was to TNG as TWOK was to TOS. First Contact took an established villain from the TV series and used it as a primary antagonist that affected the Captain on a very deep and even primal level. And both happened to be the 2nd movie into the respective series. Nemesis, so many parts felt like they were trying to duplicate scenes from TWOK instead of concepts.

Alyeska wrote:Nemesis, so many parts felt like they were trying to duplicate scenes from TWOK instead of concepts.

Not surprising given that scriptwriter John Logan was a major fanboy. Granted, so were Ron Moore and Ira Behr, but they didn't have Berman strangling them.

Metahive wrote:Him acting nothing like Picard was kind of the point. Shinzon was a completely different person due the abusive upbringing he had to endure. Tormenting Picard with the possibility that he might have ended up the same had he experienced such a crappy childhood was arguably one of the movie's central ideas.

Yeah but it was a shitty point. :d Like Chuck said, all it did was make Shinzon look like Picard's angry teenage son. If they really wanted him to be evil Picard maybe they should have written him as if he was Mirrorverse Picard. Or maybe even have him actually be Mirrorverse Picard, plucked from his own dimension in a plot to take over the Federation :D

or is that too fanficy

I don't think it's fan-ficy at all. If anything, one of the more popular elements seen in the series but never on the big screen has got to be the Mirror Universe. Some argue it's a cheap way of doing good/bad, but think about it. Picard is supposed to be an enlightened intellectual and a master strategist. Suddenly having to face himself, only evil, would be the perfect way to go. You've got a big budget and you've got the ability to pit Picard against the one adversary he hasn't had to face: himself.

Slightly off topic but I saw something creepy while watching the review. At 2:27 in Part 3, there is a mask behind Picard's desk. This mask is super creepy. The hell is that?