Penn & Teller on Circumcision (NSFW)

[Skgoa]

That one woman infuriates me: "why is the so much drama about the whole penis thing?" Really? <internettoughguy>BECAUSE YOU WANT TO MUTILATE YOUR CHILD. </internettoughguy>


How come no one has sued over being circumcised?

[Skgoa]

ghetto edit: I should have watched it to the end, they show a guy who did sue successfully.

[Zixinus]

This is pretty old.

I doubt that there will be many here that support circumcision, unless there are very good medical reasons to do so.

[Grandmaster Jogurt]

As a note on the language used in the opening post (I know you tagged it, but just to make a point here), using the term mutilation can be a risky move from what I've seen. Sometimes it can shock them into thinking about it from a new perspective but sometimes it just hardens them against any convincing as they now see anti-circumcision advocation as some crazy angry hippie issue.

[RIPP_n_WIPE]

When my son was born I did not want him circumcised. I told my wife such and she flipped out worried that he'd "feel weird" when he grew up. Why he'd be staring at other dudes junk wondering why he looked different made no sense to me but I really didn't fight for him not to be circumcised she had it done. It was entirely for aesthetic reasons. Myself being circumcised as well I and being rather decently adjusted to it probably took some of the fight out of my desire to oppose her. He didn't cry or anything so I was told (at work). He seems pretty well adjusted though I hope to educate him that he can have it restored in the future.

I honestly don't understand why WOMEN of all people really seem to care to most about having their sons circumcised. You don't have a penis, you never will. Why the fuck should you care? I sincerely doubt I'll really care about my daughters, should I have any, labial attractiveness.

[Scrib]

I honestly don't understand why WOMEN of all people really seem to care to most about having their sons circumcised. You don't have a penis, you never will. Why the fuck should you care? I sincerely doubt I'll really care about my daughters, should I have any, labial attractiveness.

I guess they're more interested in having their kids live a "normal" life. I honestly don't know but far too many of them seemed unduly concerned about it.

As for circumcision, I find the whole thing weird and distressing. If any of the studies that people link have any weight behind them then it's simply a barbaric practice carried on for no discernible reason. It may take a bit longer to clean but so does long hair (or so I've been lead to believe). And infuriatingly someone (most likely a woman in my experience) will jump up and point out that it's "just a piece of skin". So is the eyelid and the clitoris, yet no one is advocating cutting those off are they? The idea that people are willing to watch others get mutilated for no other reason than it's normal is just....ugh.

[Purple]

And on that note, how to hell is it "normal"?

It's a practice that as far as I know is restricted to certain religions. Here in Europe it's something quite unusual. Is it really that wide spread in America that it is considered mainstream?

[Mr Bean]

It's a practice that as far as I know is restricted to certain religions. Here in Europe it's something quite unusual. Is it really that wide spread in America that it is considered mainstream?

84% Christian in America, Eighty four percent Christian and pretty much all denominations push circumcision. So yes it's mainstream. 84% mainstream.

[Purple]

It's a practice that as far as I know is restricted to certain religions. Here in Europe it's something quite unusual. Is it really that wide spread in America that it is considered mainstream?

84% Christian in America, Eighty four percent Christian and pretty much all denominations push circumcision. So yes it's mainstream. 84% mainstream.

just

[Grandmaster Jogurt]

Circumcision has been on a notable decline in the US, though. While most males in the country have been circumcised, that's largely because rates were so high in the 50s-70s. Current rates across the US are about 50/50 and dropping. There's also a lot of regional variation; in the Midwest the rates are still hovering around 80%, but in the West it's dropped down to 1/3.

[PeZook]

It may take a bit longer to clean but so does long hair (or so I've been lead to believe).

That's pretty much the dumbest argument for circumcision.

It's not even comparable to long hair ; It takes...half a second longer to clean an uncircumcised penis.

UNBEARABLE INCONVENIENCE!

I honestly don't understand why WOMEN of all people really seem to care to most about having their sons circumcised. You don't have a penis, you never will. Why the fuck should you care? I sincerely doubt I'll really care about my daughters, should I have any, labial attractiveness.

A lot of cultural practices like these perpetuate because women ensure they do ; I suppose this is because women are a lot more "socially sensitive" (couldn't find a better word...) than men, that is they care a lot more about social and cultural niceties, and so are more concerned their children will feel like outcasts. And this isn't a bad thing, either. Most of the time.

Of course there is a very real male peer-pressure enforcement component to circumcision, but with the rates falling so rapidly in the US being non-cut is quickly becoming normal so this should become a non issue rather soon.

[Todeswind]

It's a practice that as far as I know is restricted to certain religions. Here in Europe it's something quite unusual. Is it really that wide spread in America that it is considered mainstream?

84% Christian in America, Eighty four percent Christian and pretty much all denominations push circumcision. So yes it's mainstream. 84% mainstream.

just

Men with their foreskins in tact are a statistical minority in the USA. Depending on the study you look at somewhere between 60-90% of all men born in the USA between 1960 and 1990 were circumcised. Admittedly the number is at an ebb at the moment. And while the current statistics are somewhere in the range of 40-60% bear in mind that these are only the figures for circumcisions done in the hospital itself, not those done later in life for religious reasons. I didn't realize that a penis was supposed to have a foreskin till I went to my first bris, and even then it only registered in my mind as a slight oddity.

A lot of that statistical decline can be linked directly with the influx of latin American immigrants in the past two decades though. Statistically white and black americans are still getting circumcised at an astounding rate.

It actually has resulted in a weird side effect where a decent number of American women flat out refuse to sleep with a man who has any foreskin. That isn't a joke or an exaggeration.

[PeZook]

It actually has resulted in a weird side effect where a decent number of American women flat out refuse to sleep with a man who has any foreskin. That isn't a joke or an exaggeration.

Eh?

[Todeswind]

No seriously, I had an "uncut" buddy of mine actually get dumped for that reason. The "eww that's icky" mentality is damn near omnipresent in the USA.

[Hillary]

It's a practice that as far as I know is restricted to certain religions. Here in Europe it's something quite unusual. Is it really that wide spread in America that it is considered mainstream?

84% Christian in America, Eighty four percent Christian and pretty much all denominations push circumcision. So yes it's mainstream. 84% mainstream.

One thing that has always struck me as strange about this is the fact that the UK probably has a similar demographic, but circumcision amongst Christians is not a big thing at all here. In fact until I found this board, I never even knew Christians advocated it - I always saw it as a purely Jewish custom.

[Terralthra]

I was circumsized at birth. My mom didn't want to, but my dad insisted that I be circumcised because I'd feel weird if my genitals didn't look like his or like other boys' genitals (in the shower room at gym class or whatever).

[Panzersharkcat]

Fortunately, we were not in the habit of stripping totally naked in the locker room so I never really had to worry about that. I also had the fortune of being born in Hong Kong, where only 1% of boys are circumcised, thank God for that.

[PeZook]

I was circumsized at birth. My mom didn't want to, but my dad insisted that I be circumcised because I'd feel weird if my genitals didn't look like his or like other boys' genitals (in the shower room at gym class or whatever).

This can't be a serious argument. Is there actually people who actually, seriously worry about that?

Maybe ther are. Maybe I'm just too out of context to get into their heads and understand the reasoning. Maybe I think learning to deal with such minor differences is a required step in a child's emotional development and it's pointless to go to extremes in order to shield him/her from having to take that step.

[Terralthra]

I was circumsized at birth. My mom didn't want to, but my dad insisted that I be circumcised because I'd feel weird if my genitals didn't look like his or like other boys' genitals (in the shower room at gym class or whatever).

This can't be a serious argument. Is there actually people who actually, seriously worry about that?

Maybe ther are. Maybe I'm just too out of context to get into their heads and understand the reasoning. Maybe I think learning to deal with such minor differences is a required step in a child's emotional development and it's pointless to go to extremes in order to shield him/her from having to take that step.

My dad thought it was a serious enough concern to cut a part of my genitals off. So, yeah, there are.

[Todeswind]

I was circumsized at birth. My mom didn't want to, but my dad insisted that I be circumcised because I'd feel weird if my genitals didn't look like his or like other boys' genitals (in the shower room at gym class or whatever).

This can't be a serious argument. Is there actually people who actually, seriously worry about that?

Maybe ther are. Maybe I'm just too out of context to get into their heads and understand the reasoning. Maybe I think learning to deal with such minor differences is a required step in a child's emotional development and it's pointless to go to extremes in order to shield him/her from having to take that step.

Parenting has no written exam to determine competence, it only requires that one pass the practical exam to determine their capacity.

[Spoonist]

I was circumsized at birth. My mom didn't want to, but my dad insisted that I be circumcised because I'd feel weird if my genitals didn't look like his or like other boys' genitals (in the shower room at gym class or whatever).

This can't be a serious argument. Is there actually people who actually, seriously worry about that?

The majority of parents worry about their child fitting in.
I've heard this exact argument multiple times in relation to US custom of circumcising boys.
It's also common as the last retort argument used when all the other standard arguments have been refuted.

[Simon_Jester]

Certain arguments just have that "zombie lie" quality. They'll persist regardless of evidence or other information, just sort of... keep going. People will keep trotting them out as if they're new, and will keep doing it for generations, because there's something about them that just settles into the brain and refuses to be dislodged.

[GreylockDS2]

I am fully intact and so is my son , i never once considerer circumcision a option for my son. Especially with the odd botched one that turns up in a news story.. It is surgery , cosmetic one at that has risks like any other surgery. I will have to find it but lately i read a article about a woman who had her son done and due to the botched job he will not have any function of his little friend, without corrective surgery... Form what i can understand there is really no reason to have this surgery done to your child other then religious or social, neither of those reasons to me justify putting someone you love under a knife.

Just to add another analogy cutting off the tip of a penis to prevent AIDS and Cancer(as there is that study) is like cutting off your daughters breast tissue to prevent breast cancer. There is also the cleanliness argument i have heard, and frankly if we have no faith in our children cleaning them selfs or putting on a rubber when it is time , there is no hope for our species.

[Broomstick]

It's a practice that as far as I know is restricted to certain religions. Here in Europe it's something quite unusual. Is it really that wide spread in America that it is considered mainstream?

84% Christian in America, Eighty four percent Christian and pretty much all denominations push circumcision. So yes it's mainstream. 84% mainstream.

just

Around the time I was born it was closer to 95%. It was common practice that boys were routinely circumcised just after birth and no one even bothered to ask the parents about it. Consent? Did one ask consent to cut the umbilical cord? No? Circumcision was seen as just as routine for the boys. Anyone who protested was seen as crazy/nuts/disturbed.

The fact that as many as 50% of male newborns are NOT circumcised in the US these days is actually quite a drastic change in attitudes. I'd prefer it not be done at all, but dropping the rate by 50% in a generation is a good start.

[Broomstick]

It actually has resulted in a weird side effect where a decent number of American women flat out refuse to sleep with a man who has any foreskin. That isn't a joke or an exaggeration.

Eh?

You have to understand something - before the current generation of 20-somethings, something like 90% of men were cut. For white Christians (the majority in the US) it was nearly 100%. That meant that most women NEVER saw an intact foreskin their entire lives! They NEVER saw a normal, unmodified penis. Ever. Even things like "Playgirl" and their naked centerfold showed only cut men. Because that was, for most women, their ONLY experience of penis that became the norm.

In other words, uncut foreskins were so rare in the US that women often perceived the normal as abnormal. An uncut penis was perceived as deformed because they were so rare.

In discussions with other women, there are LOT of them that regard the uncut penis as "icky". Or worse.