Syria shoots down Turkish fighter.

[weemadando]

Syria shoots down Turkish warplane
AM By Middle East correspondent Anne Barker

Updated June 23, 2012 11:33:54
Photo: A Turkish air force F4 fighter jet, the same model as the one which was shot down. (Turkish Air Force: www.hvkk.tsk.tr)
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Map: Turkey

Turkey's government has held an emergency security meeting after one of its fighter jets was shot down by Syrian forces over the Mediterranean Sea.

The F4 fighter jet disappeared off the radar just near the Syrian border.

Syria's military says the aircraft was flying low, well inside Syrian territorial waters, when it was shot down.

"Our air defences confronted a target that penetrated our air space over our territorial waters pre-afternoon on Friday and shot it down. It turned out to be a Turkish military plane," a statement by the military circulated on state media said.

With the second biggest army in NATO, a force hardened by nearly 30 years of fighting Kurdish rebels, Turkey would be a formidable foe for the Syrian army which is already struggling to put down a 16-month-old revolt.

But Turkey's prime minister, Recep Tayyip Erdogan, has been measured in his response to the incident.

He says Turkish and Syrian forces are working together to search for the two missing crew of the aircraft.

Mr Erdogan says Syria has already apologised and admitted it was a mistake.

"The other side have expressed regret," he said.

The Turkish army immediately called an emergency summit of top military, intelligence and high-level government officials.
Audio: Syrian crisis adds alarming dimension (AM)


Mr Erdogan is returning home from Brazil to attend an emergency summit of security and government chiefs.

"Turkey will present its final stance after the incident has been fully brought to light and decisively take the necessary steps," Mr Erdogan said.

He says the fate of the plane is still unknown and has promised a decisive response once all the facts are known.
'Spiralling out of control'
Photo: A Syrian MiG-21 fighter plane after the pilot landed at the King Hussein military air base in Jordan on Thursday. (Reuters: AmmonNews)


The incident comes days after a Syrian fighter pilot flew his plane across the border into Jordan and sought political asylulm.

Colonel Hassan Merei al-Hamade landed at a military air base in the kingdom on Thursday in the first such air force defection in the 15-month revolt against Syrian president Bashar al-Assad's regime.

He has been granted asylum in Jordan but back in Syria state television called him a traitor.

"The pilot is considered a deserter and a traitor to his country, and to his military honour, and he will be sanctioned under military rules," Syrian state television reported the defence ministry as saying.

"Relevant contacts have been made with the authorities in Jordan in order to recover the jet on which the traitor pilot made his getaway."

Violence continues to rage inside Syria, with rights groups reporting the deaths of at least 25 people in the past day.

United Nations special envoy Kofi Annan has warned the crisis in Syria could soon spiral out of control.

"The longer we wait, the darker Syria's future becomes," he said.

"It is urgent that our consultations yield real results soon otherwise I fear we are reaching the day, when it will be too late to stop the crisis from spiralling out of control."

The former UN chief says international leaders must take urgent action to resolve the crisis.

But he says they must work together and not try to act individually.

"If we continue the way we are going and competing with each other, it could lead to destructive competition and everyone will pay a price, most of all the innocent Syrian people and the region," Mr Annan said.

He has urged world leaders to raise the pressure on Syria's rival sides - and says even neighbouring Iran should be part of any solution.

Topics: unrest-conflict-and-war, government-and-politics, world-politics, turkey, syrian-arab-republic

First posted June 23, 2012 09:55:13

[Force Lord]

What was that F-4 doing? Recon?

[Mr Bean]

What was that F-4 doing? Recon?

Anything from a covert strike mission to navigation error, to yes Recon or a Rogue pilot situation. Regardless if it was over Syrian airspace then yes shooting it down was justified and Turkey could make no claim for a legitimate reason to go to war over this.

[Simon_Jester]

I'm curious. Since it was a military aircraft, yes. What if it had been, say, a state-owned VIP transport?

On the one hand, civilian aircraft. On the other hand, how hard would it be to take something like a Learjet and put spy cameras in the fuselage?

[TimothyC]

On the one hand, civilian aircraft. On the other hand, how hard would it be to take something like a Learjet and put spy cameras in the fuselage?

It's one of the solutions for manned recon. For example, the Brits are using a Global Express airframe called "Sentinel".

If you want something less suspicious, then that will not provide the same degree of coverage, but yes, it is 100% possible to use a bizjet airframe for recon.

Edit: Found an example of an Indian Gulfstream III that is configured with long range oblique cameras: link.

[Skgoa]

What was that F-4 doing? Recon?

Anything from a covert strike mission to navigation error, to yes Recon or a Rogue pilot situation. Regardless if it was over Syrian airspace then yes shooting it down was justified and Turkey could make no claim for a legitimate reason to go to war over this.

Why would they want (or need) to have a casus belli? This isn't a video game.

[Irbis]

Why would they want (or need) to have a casus belli? This isn't a video game.

Because Syria threatened to allow Kurds fighting Turkey free bases if Turkey won't stop helping the rebels? The politicians in Turkey were greatly insulted after this and would welcome some sort of puppet regime in Syria, seeing it was part of Turkey for several centuries. Going to war after 'evil regime made blatant act of war' is considerably easier, seeing no one will really care for details at this point. And, anyway, both countries are in state of quasi-war already seeing the river of war materiel pouring from Turkey into Syria.

That being said, it could also have been internal power play in Turkish military (that doesn't like current rulers and would love to get them in trouble) or simple act of incompetence (these weak Syrians won't dare mess with our HUGE army, right?).

[Simon_Jester]

Why would they want (or need) to have a casus belli? This isn't a video game.

Having a really clear cause for war ("they sneak-attacked our army") makes it easier to get people behind the war effort.

Plus there's a link between how big the Syrian provocation was and how mad it makes the Turks. The Turkish government may be angry that the Syrians shot down their plane, but they're not going to be nearly as mad as if the plane had been shot down in Turkish airspace. So if they weren't already planning to fight a war anyway, why would they decide to fight one now, over a 'provocation' that the Syrians pretty clearly had a right to do? That would just create division and argument within their own government.

The only time countries take a really flimsy thing and declare war over it is when they were already going to do it anyway and are just itching for an excuse. Or when they don't expect it to cost much- and even given that the Turks are a sure bet to win, a war with Syria would probably cost them more than a little.

[Narkis]

This isn't surprising. Turkey has been routinely violating Greek airspace over the Aegean for as long as I can remember. Apparently the Syrians have the set of balls that our guys lack.

[Zaune]

This isn't surprising. Turkey has been routinely violating Greek airspace over the Aegean for as long as I can remember. Apparently the Syrians have the set of balls that our guys lack.

They've got nothing left to lose, more like.

[D.Turtle]

Apparently it's been confirmed as being in international airspace and on a training mission that Syria had been pre-briefed on.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-06-24/s ... ce/4089442

[Highlord Laan]

Apparently it's been confirmed as being in international airspace and on a training mission that Syria had been pre-briefed on.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-06-24/s ... ce/4089442

Well, shit. If Turkey was looking for an excuse, they now have one.

EDIT: The maintenance notice makes me laugh.

[Simon_Jester]

Unless the ABC article at the top is totally wrong, I don't think the Turks have any intention of fighting a war over this. One thing you do NOT do if you're considering using something like this as a pretext for invasion is issue conciliatory statements and say "the Syrians have already apologized."

[Col. Crackpot]

Apparently it's been confirmed as being in international airspace and on a training mission that Syria had been pre-briefed on.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-06-24/s ... ce/4089442

Well, shit. If Turkey was looking for an excuse, they now have one.

EDIT: The maintenance notice makes me laugh.

Turkey being a NATO member...

[Zaune]

Unless the ABC article at the top is totally wrong, I don't think the Turks have any intention of fighting a war over this. One thing you do NOT do if you're considering using something like this as a pretext for invasion is issue conciliatory statements and say "the Syrians have already apologized."

I can't find out very much about the public mood in Turkey, but a cynical person might suggest that the perhaps Turkish government didn't have any intention to make war over it until they found out that the electorate disagreed with this assessment, and failing to do so would hurt their chances for re-election.

[GrandMasterTerwynn]

Apparently it's been confirmed as being in international airspace and on a training mission that Syria had been pre-briefed on.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-06-24/s ... ce/4089442

Well, shit. If Turkey was looking for an excuse, they now have one.

As usual, you should calm down before you make posts. Turkey will complain to NATO, which will issue sternly-worded statements and call for more sanctions, or something similarly ineffective. A Turkish military adventure in Syria would not end well for the Turks, and the international community is quite wary of intervening in more Middle Eastern uprisings, after seeing how well the uprisings are turning out for the countries that had them (Egypt: Effectively back under a Mubarak-style military dictatorship. Libya: Lurching towards civil war. Tunisia: The electorate put a conservative Islamist regime in power which has very firm ideas about the role of women in society and the acceptability of certain forms of speech and expression.) Furthermore, Syria still enjoys (more or less) the complete and tangible support of Russia (and China.)

And the Syrians are sending a message in response to perceived Turkish and Western aggression (which is how they undoubtedly interpreted a Turkish warfighter violating their airspace, which it actually had, "momentarily" according to the Turks,) which is to say that they have their internal situation well in-hand and they're going to protect their own sovereignty.

[Simon_Jester]

Unless the ABC article at the top is totally wrong, I don't think the Turks have any intention of fighting a war over this. One thing you do NOT do if you're considering using something like this as a pretext for invasion is issue conciliatory statements and say "the Syrians have already apologized."

I can't find out very much about the public mood in Turkey, but a cynical person might suggest that the perhaps Turkish government didn't have any intention to make war over it until they found out that the electorate disagreed with this assessment, and failing to do so would hurt their chances for re-election.

Personally, I doubt the Turks care very much, aside from the usual burst of jingoistic HOW DARE THEY sentiment that most of us here would probably despise if an English-speaking country were doing it.

Turkey isn't big and bulletproof enough for jingoism to drag it into wars, I think. That is the province of nations which are relatively so strong that they don't foresee any real negative consequences from provoking wars.

[Esquire]

Or that perceive themselves as being so - one can't help but think of the European powers on the eve of the First World War.

[Highlord Laan]

Apparently it's been confirmed as being in international airspace and on a training mission that Syria had been pre-briefed on.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-06-24/s ... ce/4089442

Well, shit. If Turkey was looking for an excuse, they now have one.

As usual, you should calm down before you make posts. Turkey will complain to NATO, which will issue sternly-worded statements and call for more sanctions, or something similarly ineffective. A Turkish military adventure in Syria would not end well for the Turks, and the international community is quite wary of intervening in more Middle Eastern uprisings, after seeing how well the uprisings are turning out for the countries that had them (Egypt: Effectively back under a Mubarak-style military dictatorship. Libya: Lurching towards civil war. Tunisia: The electorate put a conservative Islamist regime in power which has very firm ideas about the role of women in society and the acceptability of certain forms of speech and expression.) Furthermore, Syria still enjoys (more or less) the complete and tangible support of Russia (and China.)

And the Syrians are sending a message in response to perceived Turkish and Western aggression (which is how they undoubtedly interpreted a Turkish warfighter violating their airspace, which it actually had, "momentarily" according to the Turks,) which is to say that they have their internal situation well in-hand and they're going to protect their own sovereignty.

As usual, you should actually read before you spout off. I said "If Turkey was looking for an excuse, they have one." Meaning they can make of it what they will, wave a bloody shirt, and whip up support if they're really hard up enough to go after Syria. Fuck, the US has done it before, not like other nations can't. Going through NATO or the UN isn't exactly a prerequisite for going to war, we've proven that a couple times already.

Turkey almost certainly won't do so, but I have no doubts that that could if they wished to.

[Spoonist]

So Turkey did a §4 request to NATO, that means they are not pursuing this in a hard way. Rather it means that they are more upset that Syria shot down the plane without prior warning than actually downing it. Which means that yes it was breaching syrian airspace on what was probably a recon mission for the insurgence.