Why would not training Anakin prevent his fall to dark side?

[ray245]

When Anakin was initially deemed unfit to be trained as a Jedi, the main argument used by the Jedi council was that Anakin can fall to the dark side if he was trained.

Now forgive me if I am wrong, but shouldn't the Jedi Order be worried that Anakin would fall to the dark side if he was not accepted into the Jedi Order? They knew that the Sith order managed to survive, surely they would fear the Sith somehow lay their hands on a boy extremely powerful in the force?

[Ralin]

Mostly, I don't think they thought he could get up to much trouble without training. We don't hear about untrained Force-sensitives spontaneously manifesting Force Lightning or mind-controlling people all that often. Anakin trained is an order of magnitude more of a big deal in terms of Force buggery than anything he's likely to manage on his own.

Granted, the Sith thing is a possible concern, but they didn't know how the Sith operated and probably didn't think it was likely for the Sith to expose themselves like that. They could always keep him under observation just in case.

[Spiderman Fanboy]

Hello, you guys! I'm Sam! I'm a new user to these boards. I hope to be a good contributor to this website

The darkside and the Sith are two seperate entities. One is a group of individuals. One is a side of the Force.

If Anakin Skywalker had fallen to the darkside, but not become a Sith, he might not have been a threat to the galaxy's citizens at all.

[Guardsman Bass]

When Anakin was initially deemed unfit to be trained as a Jedi, the main argument used by the Jedi council was that Anakin can fall to the dark side if he was trained.

Now forgive me if I am wrong, but shouldn't the Jedi Order be worried that Anakin would fall to the dark side if he was not accepted into the Jedi Order? They knew that the Sith order managed to survive, surely they would fear the Sith somehow lay their hands on a boy extremely powerful in the force?

At that point in time, the Jedi Council was still skeptical as to whether or not the Sith still existed. They probably thought that if he wasn't trained, he wouldn't potentially become a threat if he fell to the dark side. He would just be someone with exceptionally good piloting skills due to his strength in the Force (Anakin himself speculates in the ROTS novelization that if he hadn't been picked up by Qui-Gon, he probably would have eventually used winnings to buy his mother and self freedom, and then risen to fame as the Only Human Pod Racer).

[Lord Revan]

Hello, you guys! I'm Sam! I'm a new user to these boards. I hope to be a good contributor to this website

The darkside and the Sith are two seperate entities. One is a group of individuals. One is a side of the Force.

If Anakin Skywalker had fallen to the darkside, but not become a Sith, he might not have been a threat to the galaxy's citizens at all.

Had Anakin fallen to the dark side but not joined the Sith Order, he probably would have been a more local problem then galaxy wide one but he would been a problem that is just the nature of the darkside.

That said the Jedi Order wasn't certain of the return of the Sith until after the battle of Naboo, as there was only Qui-Gon Jinn's word that the person who attacked him was a Sith Lord.

However I suspect that the Jedi High Council wished to keep Anakin Skywalker in state where his powers had not "awaken" yet, after all Luke was able to stay more or less a normal citizen until Kenobi trained him to use the Force.

[Spiderman Fanboy]

Hello, you guys! I'm Sam! I'm a new user to these boards. I hope to be a good contributor to this website

The darkside and the Sith are two seperate entities. One is a group of individuals. One is a side of the Force.

If Anakin Skywalker had fallen to the darkside, but not become a Sith, he might not have been a threat to the galaxy's citizens at all.

Had Anakin fallen to the dark side but not joined the Sith Order, he probably would have been a more local problem then galaxy wide one but he would been a problem that is just the nature of the darkside.

That said the Jedi Order wasn't certain of the return of the Sith until after the battle of Naboo, as there was only Qui-Gon Jinn's word that the person who attacked him was a Sith Lord.

However I suspect that the Jedi High Council wished to keep Anakin Skywalker in state where his powers had not "awaken" yet, after all Luke was able to stay more or less a normal citizen until Kenobi trained him to use the Force.

The Sith are evil because, if, you check out their history from the SW EU, you will find out that their main goal is to take over the galaxy, through violent means such as wars with the Jedi, and to subjugate the galaxy to their rule. Wookipedia states about how brutal and how opressive the Sith Empires were. This is just somewhat implied in the films, and some of the details about this are stated in the films, almost like some puzzlepiece, but, for the most part, the EU elaborates upon this much more. Which is another reason why I love SW so much, the EU!

What exactly do you mean by Anakin being a local problem and just the nature of the darkside?

And, yes, before the battle of Naboo, the Jedi were not 100% about the return of the Sith. Mace Windu's lines to Yoda prove that they were 100% about the Sith's return after the battle of Naboo. I'm not sure how Qui Gon Jinn had found out about, the Sith, exactly.

[Lord Revan]

Darkside "feeds" of stuff like anger, hate and so on and in turn amplifies or rewards those feelings, remember that berserk slaughter of the sand people in Episode II, that was cause by a short brush with the darkside, falling to the darkside is bad news (and I'm pretty sure you have to be an active to Force user to fall to the darkside).

As for Anakin being a local problem, without the resources of the Sith or Jedi, Anakin would resort to trying to "fix" the problems of the planet he is on and thus the fallout would probably be limited to that planet (and thus be local).

As for Qui-Gon Jinn, he made an assumption based on the fact that Maul had "jedi training" and being a Jedi Master he probably had access to files you typical padawan didn't.

[Spiderman Fanboy]

Darkside "feeds" of stuff like anger, hate and so on and in turn amplifies or rewards those feelings, remember that berserk slaughter of the sand people in Episode II, that was cause by a short brush with the darkside, falling to the darkside is bad news (and I'm pretty sure you have to be an active to Force user to fall to the darkside).

As for Anakin being a local problem, without the resources of the Sith or Jedi, Anakin would resort to trying to "fix" the problems of the planet he is on and thus the fallout would probably be limited to that planet (and thus be local).

As for Qui-Gon Jinn, he made an assumption based on the fact that Maul had "jedi training" and being a Jedi Master he probably had access to files you typical padawan didn't.

My own personal fan-theory is that when Anakin had killed the Tusken-raiders, he was temporarily posessed by, or at the very least he was channeling/controlling the darkside. However, he technically didn't turn to the darkside at that point. I believe that Skywalker was Darth Vader at that point, also.

What's the difference between having a short brush with the darkside, and actually falling to the darkside? What fallout and wat problems of the planet are you talking about?

Well, darkside users don't nessecarily cause an imbalance to the Force. Only the Sith do that. When Anakin died, more darksiders popped up.

Anakin just wiped out a specific group of darksiders.

[Scrib]

Darkside "feeds" of stuff like anger, hate and so on and in turn amplifies or rewards those feelings, remember that berserk slaughter of the sand people in Episode II, that was cause by a short brush with the darkside, falling to the darkside is bad news (and I'm pretty sure you have to be an active to Force user to fall to the darkside).

As for Anakin being a local problem, without the resources of the Sith or Jedi, Anakin would resort to trying to "fix" the problems of the planet he is on and thus the fallout would probably be limited to that planet (and thus be local).

Sure Anakin could have been a danger to his planet but that takes skill, means and motive. The slave raised Anakin probably doesn't have the ambition for such. He's a good pod-racer but he doesn't have Jedi training. He might turn out to be a good shot but he won't have a big military behind him nor will he be able to call on his powers at will. He would probably earn his freedom and just keep racing, given that we have no indication that he hates the institution of slavery.

Without Jedi training he would probably end up as a nobody (on a galactic scale, he'd probably be a pretty famous Pod-racer)

[Eternal_Freedom]

What do you mean "we have no indication that he hates the institution of slavery?"

He says way back in TPM "I dreamed I became a Jedi and came home to free all the slaves." Hell, even if he became possessed by the Dark Side he could still act with good intentions.

[Lord Revan]

what I meant by fallout is probably that some low level thugs/slavers end up dead since it seems totally counterdictionary to Anakin's character for him to not try to help those in the same position as himself and that one season 4 of The Clone War CGI cartoon arc where allies of the CIS took those Toruga colonist as slaves at least heavily implied if not said outright that Anakin hates slavery and slavers with passion.

As for the Force it's been implied that hardest part is to actually opening your mind to the Force, after that the simple parts are easily learned by yourself.

eitherway you're true about the thing that he'll end up a nobody (and possibly dead)

What's the difference between having a short brush with the darkside, and actually falling to the darkside?

well the best analogue would what's the difference between being someone who experiments with drugs once but never again and a becoming junkie.

[Spiderman Fanboy]

What do you mean "we have no indication that he hates the institution of slavery?"

He says way back in TPM "I dreamed I became a Jedi and came home to free all the slaves." Hell, even if he became possessed by the Dark Side he could still act with good intentions.

In the EU were are shown how the Empire took many of the non human species as slaves, including the Wookies. So, Anakin did not hate the instiution of slavery all that much. At the very least, he allowed slavery to be practiced.

Besides, what's wrong with Anakin/Vader getting rid of slavery?

[Spiderman Fanboy]

what I meant by fallout is probably that some low level thugs/slavers end up dead since it seems totally counterdictionary to Anakin's character for him to not try to help those in the same position as himself and that one season 4 of The Clone War CGI cartoon arc where allies of the CIS took those Toruga colonist as slaves at least heavily implied if not said outright that Anakin hates slavery and slavers with passion.

As for the Force it's been implied that hardest part is to actually opening your mind to the Force, after that the simple parts are easily learned by yourself.

eitherway you're true about the thing that he'll end up a nobody (and possibly dead)

What's the difference between having a short brush with the darkside, and actually falling to the darkside?

well the best analogue would what's the difference between being someone who experiments with drugs once but never again and a becoming junkie.

The darkside was compared to drugs by George Lucas himself, so, yes, that analogy makes perfect sense.

However, that's a bit hard to measure, both for the drug addict and for the darksider, and even more so for that analogy.

[Lord Revan]

Besides, what's wrong with Anakin/Vader getting rid of slavery?

nothing per se but will it end there?
I know it's bit of the cliche but the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

After all you have the "power" to "fix" things that you think are "wrong" in the galaxy why stop at just one thing and in that line of though lies the true danger of the darkside.

[Spiderman Fanboy]

Besides, what's wrong with Anakin/Vader getting rid of slavery?

nothing per se but will it end there?
I know it's bit of the cliche but the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

After all you have the "power" to "fix" things that you think are "wrong" in the galaxy why stop at just one thing and in that line of though lies the true danger of the darkside.

I still don't understand exactly what you're trying to say in this discussion. Are you discussing a hypothetical Emperor-Vader situation in which Anakin kills Sidious and becomes the Emperor himself, or are you talking about a hypothethical scenario in which Anakin was never taken away from Tattoine by Qui Gon Jinn?

What exactly are the true dangers of the darkside? This is my biggest pet peeve in the entire SW trilogy. Not all darksiders or Sith are dictators or use the death star. Not all darksiders end up in politics. Can you please be a little bit more specific 4 me, Lord Revan?

I'm not trying to be rude or arguementative, I'm just asking for you to be a little more specific, to clarify what you're saying a little bit more!

[Batman]

Trust me, at least around here, you're not even within hailing distance of rude
And I think at least part of your confusion comes from the fact that most of the local population operates on information beyond the movies (of which there were 6, BTW, so two trilogies).
Going movies alone, yeah, an untrained Anakin would probably not amount to much more than one hell of a podracer and the bane of slavers on Tattoine. Heck Luke didn't amount to much with basic Jedi training, and the fully trained PT Jedi weren't all that impressive either.
If you include EU information, however...a guy as potentially powerful as Skywalker Jr is seriously bad mojo.

[Lord Revan]

When I speak of the danger of the darkside, I mean danger on a personal level (aka to the Force user).

true not every darkside user is a tyrant, some might be mercs, bounty hunters, thugs for hire for a crimeboss or similar, but the point is same way a junkie is unable quit taking drugs, a darkside user is unable to quit using the dark side.


Landlord demanding the rent that's due, just force him to forget about it (or better yet make him pay you), sure it won't start with that but that's where it will end up, just because it doesn't threaten the Galaxy as a whole, doesn't make it any less evil.

My whole point is that there's no scenario where a Force user (which I think is needed to talk about falling to darkside), could be a darksider and be a "good guy".

[Spiderman Fanboy]

When I speak of the danger of the darkside, I mean danger on a personal level (aka to the Force user).

true not every darkside user is a tyrant, some might be mercs, bounty hunters, thugs for hire for a crimeboss or similar, but the point is same way a junkie is unable quit taking drugs, a darkside user is unable to quit using the dark side.


Landlord demanding the rent that's due, just force him to forget about it (or better yet make him pay you), sure it won't start with that but that's where it will end up, just because it doesn't threaten the Galaxy as a whole, doesn't make it any less evil.

My whole point is that there's no scenario where a Force user (which I think is needed to talk about falling to darkside), could be a darksider and be a "good guy".

Relin Druur was a good darksider.

[Batman]

Hello? Even going by just the information provided by Wookiepedia, he didn't turn Dark Side until the very last moment and was already planning to suicide when he did that. Why don't you show me a good Dark Sider who actually went through with it. You know, hero up, do selfless things, save innocents with no benefits to yourself and yet remain Dark Side.

[Spiderman Fanboy]

Hello? Even going by just the information provided by Wookiepedia, he didn't turn Dark Side until the very last moment and was already planning to suicide when he did that. Why don't you show me a good Dark Sider who actually went through with it. You know, hero up, do selfless things, save innocents with no benefits to yourself and yet remain Dark Side.

He had to destroy a time travel Sith fleet. He was a very noble Jedi. He gave in to the darkside to destroy the Sith fleet and to save many lives. Technically, it was far more like a self sacrifice, not a suicide.

[Batman]

You don't get it, do you. Until that very last moment he WASN'T Dark Side. That's not a good Dark Sider. That a Light Sider making the ultimate sacrifice because it's the only way to get the job done. How did Harvey put it? 'You either die the hero, or you live long enough to become the villain'.
A good Dark Sider would be one doing the stuff the Jedi did. You know, helping the opressed, fighting the Seperatists, all the stuff the Republic did? Or the New Republic? Granted, the latter was essentially its own worst enemy, but they were still nominally the Good Guys (however ineptly). Show me the last time the Dark Siders were working for anybody but themselves. Oh, and the Sith? The apprentice is expected to kill the Master. I think I'm going with the Jedi. Especially as Skywalker Sr has weeded out all the OR ones.

[Spiderman Fanboy]

You don't get it, do you. Until that very last moment he WASN'T Dark Side. That's not a good Dark Sider. That a Light Sider making the ultimate sacrifice because it's the only way to get the job done. How did Harvey put it? 'You either die the hero, or you live long enough to become the villain'.
A good Dark Sider would be one doing the stuff the Jedi did. You know, helping the opressed, fighting the Seperatists, all the stuff the Republic did? Or the New Republic? Granted, the latter was essentially its own worst enemy, but they were still nominally the Good Guys (however ineptly). Show me the last time the Dark Siders were working for anybody but themselves. Oh, and the Sith? The apprentice is expected to kill the Master. I think I'm going with the Jedi. Especially as Skywalker Sr has weeded out all the OR ones.

From my point of view (no pun intended), the Seperatists are evil!

I mean, seriously. The Seperatists had a droid army that they wanted to attack the Republic with. However, that was self defense against the Galactic Republic. They wanted to leave a very corrupt government that had high taxes. And the Republic was planning on attacking them first because of that, and so then the Seps used self defense-their robot army.

Not to mention that the entire galactic scale war had started just because the Jedi went to go rescue some of their friends, a senator and some of the other Jedi.

And, also, the worst enemy of the New Republic, or at least one of them, was the Yuuzhan Vong.

Who are the "OR" ones? And, yes, the Sith were very evil, even from a personal small scale level, not even from a galaxy wide level. They killed each other in order to gain more power. Well, Luke Skywalker had temporarily had a brush with the darkside, too. And Father Skywalker had killed Sidious.

[biostem]

Are we talking about if Anakin was still taken to Coruscant but not trained, or are we talking about an Anakin that was left on Tatooine, (whether free or not)? As hard has life was for Anakin and his mother, they at least had each other. Had the Jedi/Republic bought Shmi's freedom, or simply left them together on Tatooine, things might have worked out more favorably. Because Anakin was old enough to have a strong connection to his mother, he had the thought of her still living in slavery back at Tatooine.

Even if Anakin did fall to the dark side eventually, he wouldn't have the training or backing to cause as much damage, and would probably have been brought down by a Hutt enforcer or bounty hunter eventually, (or someone would just have set off the bomb in his body).

[Ahriman238]

OR= Old Republic, as in "Anakin killed all the Old Republic Jedi, so Luke's Jedi Order won't have the baggage of the old one."

There's a bit in the Legacy of the Force comics where the Jedi/Sith dichotomy is explained thus: Jedi believe in acting as instruments of the Force and serving it's quasi-religious will. Sith believe in grabbing the universe by the throat with their awesome powers and demanding they get everything they want.

There have been numerous Jedi who delved into the dark side for noble ends, but it's always a temporary situation that ends either with the Jedi being saved and redeemed (sometimes in a manner eerily reminiscent of an addict) or with the Jedi becoming an evil monster and the antithesis of all they'd hoped to accomplish with the power of the dark side (Anakin leaps to mind.)

[Spiderman Fanboy]

OR= Old Republic, as in "Anakin killed all the Old Republic Jedi, so Luke's Jedi Order won't have the baggage of the old one."

There's a bit in the Legacy of the Force comics where the Jedi/Sith dichotomy is explained thus: Jedi believe in acting as instruments of the Force and serving it's quasi-religious will. Sith believe in grabbing the universe by the throat with their awesome powers and demanding they get everything they want.

There have been numerous Jedi who delved into the dark side for noble ends, but it's always a temporary situation that ends either with the Jedi being saved and redeemed (sometimes in a manner eerily reminiscent of an addict) or with the Jedi becoming an evil monster and the antithesis of all they'd hoped to accomplish with the power of the dark side (Anakin leaps to mind.)

Most of the Jedi were killed by the Clonetroopers. Anakin/Vader just killed a few of them.