DOJ Memo on Extrajudicial Killing of US Citizens

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DOJ Memo on Extrajudicial Killing of US Citizens

Post by Alyrium Denryle »

As we suspected. No Evidence Required. No Due Process. Just the Say-So of a High Level Official.
A confidential Justice Department memo concludes that the U.S. government can order the killing of American citizens if they are believed to be “senior operational leaders” of al-Qaida or “an associated force” -- even if there is no intelligence indicating they are engaged in an active plot to attack the U.S.

The 16-page memo, a copy of which was obtained by NBC News, provides new details about the legal reasoning behind one of the Obama administration’s most secretive and controversial polices: its dramatically increased use of drone strikes against al-Qaida suspects abroad, including those aimed at American citizens, such as the September 2011 strike in Yemen that killed alleged al-Qaida operatives Anwar al-Awlaki and Samir Khan. Both were U.S. citizens who had never been indicted by the U.S. government nor charged with any crimes.

The secrecy surrounding such strikes is fast emerging as a central issue in this week’s hearing of White House counterterrorism adviser John Brennan, a key architect of the drone campaign, to be CIA director. Brennan was the first administration official to publicly acknowledge drone strikes in a speech last year, calling them “consistent with the inherent right of self-defense.” In a separate talk at the Northwestern University Law School in March, Attorney General Eric Holder specifically endorsed the constitutionality of targeted killings of Americans, saying they could be justified if government officials determine the target poses “an imminent threat of violent attack.”

But the confidential Justice Department “white paper” introduces a more expansive definition of self-defense or imminent attack than described by Brennan or Holder in their public speeches. It refers, for example, to what it calls a “broader concept of imminence” than actual intelligence about any ongoing plot against the U.S. homeland.

“The condition that an operational leader present an ‘imminent’ threat of violent attack against the United States does not require the United States to have clear evidence that a specific attack on U.S. persons and interests will take place in the immediate future,” the memo states.

Read the entire 'white paper' on drone strikes on Americans

Instead, it says, an “informed, high-level” official of the U.S. government may determine that the targeted American has been “recently” involved in “activities” posing a threat of a violent attack and “there is no evidence suggesting that he has renounced or abandoned such activities.” The memo does not define “recently” or “activities.”

As in Holder’s speech, the confidential memo lays out a three-part test that would make targeted killings of American lawful: In addition to the suspect being an imminent threat, capture of the target must be “infeasible, and the strike must be conducted according to “law of war principles.” But the memo elaborates on some of these factors in ways that go beyond what the attorney general said publicly. For example, it states that U.S. officials may consider whether an attempted capture of a suspect would pose an “undue risk” to U.S. personnel involved in such an operation. If so, U.S. officials could determine that the capture operation of the targeted American would not be feasible, making it lawful for the U.S. government to order a killing instead, the memo concludes.

The undated memo is entitled “Lawfulness of a Lethal Operation Directed Against a U.S. Citizen who is a Senior Operational Leader of Al Qa’ida or An Associated Force.” It was provided to members of the Senate Intelligence and Judiciary committees in June by administration officials on the condition that it be kept confidential and not discussed publicly.

Although not an official legal memo, the white paper was represented by administration officials as a policy document that closely mirrors the arguments of classified memos on targeted killings by the Justice Department’s Office of Legal Counsel, which provides authoritative legal advice to the president and all executive branch agencies. The administration has refused to turn over to Congress or release those memos publicly -- or even publicly confirm their existence. A source with access to the white paper, which is not classified, provided a copy to NBC News.

“This is a chilling document,” said Jameel Jaffer, deputy legal director of the ACLU, which is suing to obtain administration memos about the targeted killing of Americans. “Basically, it argues that the government has the right to carry out the extrajudicial killing of an American citizen. … It recognizes some limits on the authority it sets out, but the limits are elastic and vaguely defined, and it’s easy to see how they could be manipulated.”

In particular, Jaffer said, the memo “redefines the word imminence in a way that deprives the word of its ordinary meaning.”

A Justice Department spokeswoman declined to comment on the white paper. The spokeswoman, Tracy Schmaler, instead pointed to public speeches by what she called a “parade” of administration officials, including Brennan, Holder, former State Department Legal Adviser Harold Koh and former Defense Department General Counsel Jeh Johnson that she said outlined the “legal framework” for such operations.

Pressure for turning over the Justice Department memos on targeted killings of Americans appears to be building on Capitol Hill amid signs that Brennan will be grilled on the subject at his confirmation hearing before the Senate Intelligence Committee on Thursday.

On Monday, a bipartisan group of 11 senators -- led by Democrat Ron Wyden of Oregon — wrote a letter to President Barack Obama asking him to release all Justice Department memos on the subject. While accepting that “there will clearly be circumstances in which the president has the authority to use lethal force” against Americans who take up arms against the country, it said, “It is vitally important ... for Congress and the American public to have a full understanding of how the executive branch interprets the limits and boundaries of this authority.”

Anticipating domestic boom, colleges rev up drone piloting programs

The completeness of the administration’s public accounts of its legal arguments was also sharply criticized last month by U.S. Judge Colleen McMahon in response to a lawsuit brought by the New York Times and the ACLU seeking access to the Justice Department memos on drone strikes targeting Americans under the Freedom of Information Act. McMahon, describing herself as being caught in a “veritable Catch-22,” said she was unable to order the release of the documents given “the thicket of laws and precedents that effectively allow the executive branch of our government to proclaim as perfectly lawful certain actions that seem on their face incompatible with our Constitution and laws while keeping the reasons for the conclusion a secret.”

In her ruling, McMahon noted that administration officials “had engaged in public discussion of the legality of targeted killing, even of citizens.” But, she wrote, they have done so “in cryptic and imprecise ways, generally without citing … any statute or court decision that justifies its conclusions.”

In one passage in Holder’s speech at Northwestern in March, he alluded – without spelling out—that there might be circumstances where the president might order attacks against American citizens without specific knowledge of when or where an attack against the U.S. might take place.

“The Constitution does not require the president to delay action until some theoretical end-stage of planning, when the precise time, place and manner of an attack become clear,” he said.

But his speech did not contain the additional language in the white paper suggesting that no active intelligence about a specific attack is needed to justify a targeted strike. Similarly, Holder said in his speech that targeted killings of Americans can be justified if “capture is not feasible.” But he did not include language in the white paper saying that an operation might not be feasible “if it could not be physically effectuated during the relevant window of opportunity or if the relevant country (where the target is located) were to decline to consent to a capture operation.” The speech also made no reference to the risk that might be posed to U.S. forces seeking to capture a target, as was mentioned in the white paper.

The white paper also includes a more extensive discussion of why targeted strikes against Americans does not violate constitutional protections afforded American citizens as well as a U.S. law that criminalizes the killing of U.S. nationals overseas.

It also discusses why such targeted killings would not be a war crime or violate a U.S. executive order banning assassinations.

“A lawful killing in self-defense is not an assassination,” the white paper reads. “In the Department’s view, a lethal operation conducted against a U.S. citizen whose conduct poses an imminent threat of violent attack against the United States would be a legitimate act of national self-defense that would not violate the assassination ban. Similarly, the use of lethal force, consistent with the laws of war, against an individual who is a legitimate military target would be lawful and would not violate the assassination ban.”
Admittedly, I need to read the White Paper and am on my way out the door. However... WTF? In effect, the conditions under which this might be done amount to the say so of an official to put someone on a death list. No specific intelligence is required. That "recent" and "activities" and "associated force" are both vague and undefined leads this open to abuse, and the precedent set is pretty fucking chilling--irrespective of what you think of how it has been used thus far.

This violates the Due Process Clause on its face, and while the legal argument could be made that it was necessary after the fact in a few constrained cases, that legal argument needs to be made in the courts and not kept secret by the administration.
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Re: DOJ Memo on Extrajudicial Killing of US Citizens

Post by CaptHawkeye »

Yet more militant, oppressive bullshit from the "left wing" administration of President Obama. Mind you this is the same guy who extended the Patriot Act, kept Gitmo open, signed the NDAA, and approved further drone strikes and spying.

America is in desperate need of a proper left-wing party.
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Re: DOJ Memo on Extrajudicial Killing of US Citizens

Post by TheHammer »

We do not give court trials to military targets. Senior leadership of an organization engaged in armed hostilities towards the US are legitimate military targets. The fact that there is any additional consideration at all given to these men because they are "American Citizens" should be considered a bonus.
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Re: DOJ Memo on Extrajudicial Killing of US Citizens

Post by Ahriman238 »

TheHammer wrote:We do not give court trials to military targets. Senior leadership of an organization engaged in armed hostilities towards the US are legitimate military targets. The fact that there is any additional consideration at all given to these men because they are "American Citizens" should be considered a bonus.
...

Okay, technically it's a good idea to stop and ask ourselves if it's a good idea to assassinate our own citizenry with no oversight whatsoever. Baby steps and all. Now maybe we should start asking if it's a good idea to be killing people who aren't an imminent threat, on some official's say-so without oversight, period. Yes?
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Re: DOJ Memo on Extrajudicial Killing of US Citizens

Post by SomeDude »

Something I've always wondered: why does it matter whether the people you kill without trial are American citizens or not?
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Re: DOJ Memo on Extrajudicial Killing of US Citizens

Post by Darth Lucifer »

SomeDude wrote:Something I've always wondered: why does it matter whether the people you kill without trial are American citizens or not?
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Re: DOJ Memo on Extrajudicial Killing of US Citizens

Post by Ziggy Stardust »

SomeDude wrote:Something I've always wondered: why does it matter whether the people you kill without trial are American citizens or not?
It really doesn't matter one bit.

My problem isn't the fact that they are American citizens, but that due process is not being extended to them.
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Re: DOJ Memo on Extrajudicial Killing of US Citizens

Post by Kamakazie Sith »

Interesting topic. I think we need some examples so we can look at the framework. Which country gives due process to the members of enemy forces? Which country has open trials for to determine whether a person is a member of a enemy force?
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Re: DOJ Memo on Extrajudicial Killing of US Citizens

Post by Ziggy Stardust »

Maybe "due process" isn't the right term for this situation, I made that remark pretty off the cuff. My issue is the apparent ease with which an individual can be targeted with little or no justification; according to the OP, it doesn't call for extensive evidence or intelligence. Of course, there is always the possibility that this is simply not true, but I have to go off of the information I've been provided here.

Just from reading what has been provided here, it gives the impression that the government can more or less designate someone a member of an enemy force by fiat, and no reasonable level of proof is required then to kill them. I'd like to know how the government makes these decisions before I can trust that they are doing it in an appropriate manner.

(Also, there is the fact that the government is hypocritical in carrying out these attacks, but condemning similar attacks by Israel.)
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Re: DOJ Memo on Extrajudicial Killing of US Citizens

Post by Kamakazie Sith »

Ziggy Stardust wrote:Maybe "due process" isn't the right term for this situation, I made that remark pretty off the cuff. My issue is the apparent ease with which an individual can be targeted with little or no justification; according to the OP, it doesn't call for extensive evidence or intelligence. Of course, there is always the possibility that this is simply not true, but I have to go off of the information I've been provided here.

Just from reading what has been provided here, it gives the impression that the government can more or less designate someone a member of an enemy force by fiat, and no reasonable level of proof is required then to kill them. I'd like to know how the government makes these decisions before I can trust that they are doing it in an appropriate manner.

(Also, there is the fact that the government is hypocritical in carrying out these attacks, but condemning similar attacks by Israel.)
I want to clarify. I don't like all the secrecy. If a US citizen is a member of a terrorist organization that is engaged in open warfare with the United States then that evidence should be laid on the table by the government and not media organizations.

The memo does list requirements that a high level official must meet in order to designate a person. So, I think some are assuming that no evidence is required. But, I could be wrong.

Doesn't Israel have a habit of using unguided ordinance against targets? That's a nitpick though. The question for me is do these targets satisfy the laws of armed conflict.
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Re: DOJ Memo on Extrajudicial Killing of US Citizens

Post by Wing Commander MAD »

SomeDude wrote:Something I've always wondered: why does it matter whether the people you kill without trial are American citizens or not?
U.S. Const., amend. V. wrote:No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.
I really hope that was a rhetorical question.
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Re: DOJ Memo on Extrajudicial Killing of US Citizens

Post by Zwinmar »

Law of war?

Hahhaha. Excuse me while I laugh for the next hour or so.
Didn't we prove with Gitmo that the US doesn't follow the Geneva Convention aka the rules of war. Come to think of it isn't that place still doing it.
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Re: DOJ Memo on Extrajudicial Killing of US Citizens

Post by Kamakazie Sith »

Zwinmar wrote:Law of war?

Hahhaha. Excuse me while I laugh for the next hour or so.
Didn't we prove with Gitmo that the US doesn't follow the Geneva Convention aka the rules of war. Come to think of it isn't that place still doing it.
Yeah, you're right. So, what are the consequences of this? Is the US no longer allowed to defend itself or choose targets? I suspect this was just a trolling response but I'd like to hear some serious input from you.
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Re: DOJ Memo on Extrajudicial Killing of US Citizens

Post by Kamakazie Sith »

Wing Commander MAD wrote:
SomeDude wrote:Something I've always wondered: why does it matter whether the people you kill without trial are American citizens or not?
U.S. Const., amend. V. wrote:No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.
I really hope that was a rhetorical question.
Did you miss part of what you quoted?


except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger
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Re: DOJ Memo on Extrajudicial Killing of US Citizens

Post by SomeDude »

Wing Commander MAD wrote:
SomeDude wrote:Something I've always wondered: why does it matter whether the people you kill without trial are American citizens or not?
U.S. Const., amend. V. wrote:No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.
I really hope that was a rhetorical question.
It's not a rhetorical question, because the paragraph you quoted doesn't make any reference to American citizens.
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Re: DOJ Memo on Extrajudicial Killing of US Citizens

Post by Grumman »

Kamakazie Sith wrote:Did you miss part of what you quoted?

except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger
The targets aren't in the land or naval forces, nor in the militia.
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Re: DOJ Memo on Extrajudicial Killing of US Citizens

Post by Zwinmar »

Geneva Convention

Art 57. Precautions in attack

1. In the conduct of military operations, constant care shall be taken to spare the civilian population, civilians and civilian objects.

2. With respect to attacks, the following precautions shall be taken:
(a) those who plan or decide upon an attack shall:
(i) do everything feasible to verify that the objectives to be attacked are neither civilians nor civilian objects and are not subject to special protection but are military objectives within the meaning of paragraph 2 of Article 52 and that it is not prohibited by the provisions of this Protocol to attack them;
(ii) take all feasible precautions in the choice of means and methods of attack with a view to avoiding, and in any event to minimizing, incidental loss or civilian life, injury to civilians and damage to civilian objects;
(iii) refrain from deciding to launch any attack which may be expected to cause incidental loss of civilian life, injury to civilians, damage to civilian objects, or a combination thereof, which would be excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated;

(b) an attack shall be cancelled or suspended if it becomes apparent that the objective is not a military one or is subject to special protection or that the attack may be expected to cause incidental loss of civilian life, injury to civilians, damage to civilian objects, or a combination thereof, which would be excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated;

(c) effective advance warning shall be given of attacks which may affect the civilian population, unless circumstances do not permit.

3. When a choice is possible between several military objectives for obtaining a similar military advantage, the objective to be selected shall be that the attack on which may be expected to cause the least danger to civilian lives and to civilian objects.

4. In the conduct of military operations at sea or in the air, each Party to the conflict shall, in conformity with its rights and duties under the rules of international law applicable in armed conflict, take all reasonable precautions to avoid losses of civilian lives and damage to civilian objects.

5. No provision of this article may be construed as authorizing any attacks against the civilian population, civilians or civilian objects.

Art 65. Cessation of protection

1. The protection to which civilian civil defence organizations, their personnel, buildings, shelters and matériel are entitled shall not cease unless they commit or are used to commit, outside their proper tasks, acts harmful to the enemy. Protection may, however, cease only after a warning has been given setting, whenever appropriate, a reasonable time-limit, and after such warning has remained unheeded.

Art 75. Fundamental guarantees

1. In so far as they are affected by a situation referred to in Article 1 of this Protocol, persons who are in the power of a Party to the conflict and who do not benefit from more favourable treatment under the Conventions or under this Protocol shall be treated humanely in all circumstances and shall enjoy, as a minimum, the protection provided by this Article without any adverse distinction based upon race, colour, sex, language, religion or belief, political or other opinion, national or social origin, wealth, birth or other status, or on any other similar criteria. Each Party shall respect the person, honour, convictions and religious practices of all such persons.

2. The following acts are and shall remain prohibited at any time and in any place whatsoever, whether committed by civilian or by military agents:
(a) violence to the life, health, or physical or mental well-being of persons, in particular:
(i) murder;
(ii) torture of all kinds, whether physical or mental;

(iii) corporal punishment; and
(iv) mutilation;

(b) outrages upon personal dignity, in particular humiliating and degrading treatment, enforced prostitution and any form of indecent assault;
(c) the taking of hostages;
(d) collective punishments; and
(e) threats to commit any of the foregoing acts.

3. Any person arrested, detained or interned for actions related to the armed conflict shall be informed promptly, in a language he understands, of the reasons why these measures have been taken. Except in cases of arrest or detention for penal offences, such persons shall be released with the minimum delay possible and in any event as soon as the circumstances justifying the arrest, detention or internment have ceased to exist.
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Re: DOJ Memo on Extrajudicial Killing of US Citizens

Post by Zwinmar »

Actually Ill just post the full article 57


Art 75. Fundamental guarantees

1. In so far as they are affected by a situation referred to in Article 1 of this Protocol, persons who are in the power of a Party to the conflict and who do not benefit from more favourable treatment under the Conventions or under this Protocol shall be treated humanely in all circumstances and shall enjoy, as a minimum, the protection provided by this Article without any adverse distinction based upon race, colour, sex, language, religion or belief, political or other opinion, national or social origin, wealth, birth or other status, or on any other similar criteria. Each Party shall respect the person, honour, convictions and religious practices of all such persons.

2. The following acts are and shall remain prohibited at any time and in any place whatsoever, whether committed by civilian or by military agents:
(a) violence to the life, health, or physical or mental well-being of persons, in particular:
(i) murder;
(ii) torture of all kinds, whether physical or mental;
(iii) corporal punishment; and
(iv) mutilation;

(b) outrages upon personal dignity, in particular humiliating and degrading treatment, enforced prostitution and any form of indecent assault;
(c) the taking of hostages;
(d) collective punishments; and
(e) threats to commit any of the foregoing acts.

3. Any person arrested, detained or interned for actions related to the armed conflict shall be informed promptly, in a language he understands, of the reasons why these measures have been taken. Except in cases of arrest or detention for penal offences, such persons shall be released with the minimum delay possible and in any event as soon as the circumstances justifying the arrest, detention or internment have ceased to exist.

4. No sentence may be passed and no penalty may be executed on a person found guilty of a penal offence related to the armed conflict except pursuant to a conviction pronounced by an impartial and regularly constituted court respecting the generally recognized principles of regular judicial procedure, which include the following:
(a) the procedure shall provide for an accused to be informed without delay of the particulars of the offence alleged against him and shall afford the accused before and during his trial all necessary rights and means of defence;
(b) no one shall be convicted of an offence except on the basis of individual penal responsibility;
(c) no one shall be accused or convicted of a criminal offence on account or any act or omission which did not constitute a criminal offence under the national or international law to which he was subject at the time when it was committed; nor shall a heavier penalty be imposed than that which was applicable at the time when the criminal offence was committed; if, after the commission of the offence, provision is made by law for the imposition of a lighter penalty, the offender shall benefit thereby;
(d) anyone charged with an offence is presumed innocent until proved guilty according to law;
(e) anyone charged with an offence shall have the right to be tried in his presence;
(f) no one shall be compelled to testify against himself or to confess guilt;
(g) anyone charged with an offence shall have the right to examine, or have examined, the witnesses against him and to obtain the attendance and examination of witnesses on his behalf under the same conditions as witnesses against him;
(h) no one shall be prosecuted or punished by the same Party for an offence in respect of which a final judgement acquitting or convicting that person has been previously pronounced under the same law and judicial procedure;
(i) anyone prosecuted for an offence shall have the right to have the judgement pronounced publicly; and
(j) a convicted person shall be advised on conviction of his judicial and other remedies and of the time-limits within which they may be exercised.

5. Women whose liberty has been restricted for reasons related to the armed conflict shall be held in quarters separated from men's quarters. They shall be under the immediate supervision of women. Nevertheless, in cases where families are detained or interned, they shall, whenever possible, be held in the same place and accommodated as family units.

6. Persons who are arrested, detained or interned for reasons related to the armed conflict shall enjoy the protection provided by this Article until their final release, repatriation or re-establishment, even after the end of the armed conflict.

7. In order to avoid any doubt concerning the prosecution and trial of persons accused of war crimes or crimes against humanity, the following principles shall apply:
(a) persons who are accused of such crimes should be submitted for the purpose of prosecution and trial in accordance with the applicable rules of international law; and
(b) any such persons who do not benefit from more favourable treatment under the Conventions or this Protocol shall be accorded the treatment provided by this Article, whether or not the crimes of which they are accused constitute grave breaches of the Conventions or of this Protocol.

8. No provision of this Article may be construed as limiting or infringing any other more favourable provision granting greater protection, under any applicable rules of international law, to persons covered by paragraph 1
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Re: DOJ Memo on Extrajudicial Killing of US Citizens

Post by Zaune »

You know, there are plenty of reasons to object to the policy of drone strikes, but the letter of a constitutional amendment that was written a couple of hundred years before the concept of terrorism really existed does not strike me as a particularly sensible one. These people have quite clearly and unambiguously taken up arms against the United States; if they'd defected to China or Iran or the Republic of Elbonia their legal status would be pretty clear, but al-Queda is something we didn't really see coming, an army -of a sort- without a state. Nobody really has rules for that yet.

Which is not a defence of the status quo, mind you, and especially not a defence of indiscriminate killing without regard for collateral damage or the sovereignty of an allied country.
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Re: DOJ Memo on Extrajudicial Killing of US Citizens

Post by TheHammer »

Grumman wrote:
Kamakazie Sith wrote:Did you miss part of what you quoted?

except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger
The targets aren't in the land or naval forces, nor in the militia.
I expect that the founders presumed that a little common sense would be applied here.

Further, if you want to get technical about it, it doesn't specify that said persons need to be members of the U.S. land or naval forces, or militia.
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Re: DOJ Memo on Extrajudicial Killing of US Citizens

Post by Malivotti »

The problem with a discussion about this is we don't know how a name is put on the list. We, as in the people discussing this do not have access to the information that the the President has access to. No NSA, NRO, CIA, DoJ, FBI, DIA, DHS, ONI, and others to advise and inform us, no allied agencies such as GCHQ, CSIS, Mossad and all the others to give us intell.

The beginning of the War on Terror the US declared it was at war, it is a war with no borders, no identified uniforms, it is a war of ideologies and hatreds. After aprox 12 years public will in the West has hit the redline for war, the public no longer supports a war on the ground overthere, but the threat has not gone away. I doubt it ever will go away entirely. As such we could wage a continuing conflict with soldiers on the ground and pay a cost in bodies, blood, and money but that is if not political suicide than too damm close in today's democracies.

The war could be fought by special forces, less manpower, better trained, more effective however the political cost of invading a foreign power to get the SF guys to where they need to go and the cost of failure if a team of SEALs, SAS or JTF2 gets caught, intercepted or killed makes it unlikely to be carried out. Just ask how much fallout the SAS had in Northern Ireland when a team took a wrong turn and was caught in Southern Ireland.

Drone warfare is low risk to the country launching the strikes, drones are cheaper, easier to attack with, and if one shot down much cheaper than manned aircraft or a Blackhawk filled full of SF types. So drones are here to stay. Also they are the best unit to use in war that has none of the previous characteristics of what we think of a war.

Now here is the cold bloodied thought in this mess of changing warfare, a person raised in the US that is acting against the US is much more dangerous than someone coming from somefuckingstan with a bomb shoved up his ass on a 747. A US citizen has knowledge of how to act in the US, can blend in, knows the language and slang, can BS about American Idol and Jersey Shore, and teach that knowledge to others. Each US citizen that works against the US is more effective than several others born outside the US. That makes those people higher value targets that need to be dealt with. The knowledge that they have of the US, the ability to fit in is vital moreso after 9/11. Also by announcing that the US is going to go after these people, and that they will be killed by a drone, not going out in blaze of glory against a SEAL team will likely make a few think twice about a life of glorious struggle when they know a Hellfire proctology exam is in their future over there.

The psychological effects of the drone war might just be more effective than the missile in the long run, but we will never know because the best result from this strategy will be nothing happening to us at home and it's damm hard to cheer for nothing.
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Dominarch's Hope
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Re: DOJ Memo on Extrajudicial Killing of US Citizens

Post by Dominarch's Hope »

CaptHawkeye wrote:Yet more militant, oppressive bullshit from the "left wing" administration of President Obama. Mind you this is the same guy who extended the Patriot Act, kept Gitmo open, signed the NDAA, and approved further drone strikes and spying.

America is in desperate need of a proper left-wing party.
Combined with the abject failure of his healthcare plan, which is essentially a tax on people who cant afford healthcare insurance, thus fucking the poor more, when it should have been "heres your card, swipe it when needed and Uncle Sam covers it" or nothing, it gets progressivelh more difficult to take people seriously when they say shut like "Bush was teh ebils but Obama is our saviors".
Hey idiots, eavesdropping without permission isnt as bad as unilateral executions. And atleast Bush's Healthcare plan didnt simply go "Fuck the poor". Hell, he expanded coverage and dintax a dime for it.


Stupid in its own way, but better than a fucking poor tax.
Because, Murrica, thats why.
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Kamakazie Sith
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Re: DOJ Memo on Extrajudicial Killing of US Citizens

Post by Kamakazie Sith »

Grumman wrote:
Kamakazie Sith wrote:Did you miss part of what you quoted?

except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger
The targets aren't in the land or naval forces, nor in the militia.
Sounds like semantics bullshit to me. Did you miss the "public danger" part.

Zwinmar, I appreciate you posting the articles from the Geneva Convention. Though nobody here is contesting that the United States has violated the convention. It is quite clear that Gitmo is a violation of these. I noticed you highlighted "5. No provision of this article may be construed as authorizing any attacks against the civilian population, civilians or civilian objects." Are civilians that take up arms or join the enemy still considered "civilians"?
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The Duchess of Zeon
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Re: DOJ Memo on Extrajudicial Killing of US Citizens

Post by The Duchess of Zeon »

Grumman wrote:The targets aren't in the land or naval forces, nor in the militia.
All adult males are in the militia in the United States per federal law, so the extension of summary justice for treason and desertion by taking up cause with the enemy is not automatically unconstitutional.
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Dominarch's Hope
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Re: DOJ Memo on Extrajudicial Killing of US Citizens

Post by Dominarch's Hope »

I still think its fucking wrong. But Duchess is technically right in that arguement. But holy shit, its a major gray area.
Because, Murrica, thats why.
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