Armored Trooper VOTOMS Discussion

[willyvereb]

Probably the closest you can get to a series where the mecha makes sense.

VOTOMS is a gritty and dark science fiction franchise taking place in the faraway Astragius Galaxy.
There two factions fight a seemingly never-ending war. Slowly but surely bringing everything closer to ruin and exhaustion.
We follow the story of Chirico Cuvie, a former elite soldier who deserted after being falsely accused with treason.
Even though the war came to a temporally end, Chirico begins his own personal fight, searching for answers while eventually unraveling an ancient galaxy-wide conspiracy.

Aired in the early 80s, this is a rather old series.
Albeit the franchise has a number of more recent installments.
The latest being released in 2011 with the promise of an upcoming movie in the near future.

This thread can be used both to analyze the power of the verse and discuss VOTOMS as a series.

[Stark]

Can we talk about where they got all those Republic of Zeon uniforms first y/n?

Oh and just to let me know if I should pay any attention does 'make sense' mean 'are weak'?

[Batman]

A series where Mecha almost make sense? This I got to see.

[Stark]

Maybe it's a gateway show so you're able to watch all those shows where they make sense? Start with no sense, move to almost sense, then watch actual good shows?

The Path of Nerd, I'd call it.

Nevertheless, even the most close minded idiot westerner can get big laughs from Votoms, even if its a bit generic.

[Batman]

The only way Mecha make sense is either a universe where the laws of physics are twisted to allow Mecha to do things the rest of military vehicles can't for some reason or other or one where one side is so far technologically ahead of the other that they don't have to worry about Mecha being a patently stupid idea because they can retain the military edge despite using giant (usually humaniform) robots when applying the same technology to conventional military vehicles would be massively more efficient.
Well and of course universes where all involved parties are so stupid they actually think Mecha are a good idea.

[willyvereb]

Can we talk about where they got all those Republic of Zeon uniforms first y/n?

Well, VOTOMS was made by Sunrise, the same studio which was behind Gundam.
Also I don't think any of the uniforms look Zeonic. Albeit the unifroms wore by the Gilgamesh Confederation look very Federation-like.
Or you meant the mecha?
Nah, aside from the grittiness and color scheme, they're pretty different.

Oh and just to let me know if I should pay any attention does 'make sense' mean 'are weak'?

Oh and just to let me know if I should pay any attention does 'make sense' mean 'are weak'?

Well, kind of yes.
Armored Troopers (or AT) are about 4m tall and almost like the equivalent of foot soldier in the verse.
They are deployed by the hundreds, thousands and at extremely rare times even by the hundreds of millions.
Anything other than small arms is probably a threat to them. Albeit there are some reinforced portions that can take some punishment.
They can also have roller-skatish gears to move fast on terrain (Did you watch Code Geass? The idea of skating mechs actually came from this series.)
But well, this begin Sci-Fi and one taking place in the obscure far future in a different galaxy with human-looking aliens, the Armored Troopers aren't exactly weak, either.

For example, the common gun used by ATs is a 30mm autocannon, with each shot capable of penetrating more than a meter of steel.
I calculated that feat between 15-27 mega-joules. Multitude of the firepower of an M1Abrams.
Heavier weapons used by ATs can occasionally approach the equivalent of few tons of TNT yield. Based on some feats.
And there's a rare type of particle cannon has the firepower of 0.15 kilotons. These are used against warships.
And oh yes, with some modifications, these Armored Troopers can also fight in space, acting as tiny fighters.
Speaking of warships, these usually fight by shooting missiles at each other. One good hit from these missiles is usually enough to blow the enemy vessel to pieces. Most ships also have energy weapons but they aren't as useful.

So yeah, in conclusion I can't say that VOTOMS is hard SF, but it's definitely more reasonable than most Mecha shows.

[Stark]

Have you ever considered that this preconception is wrong, or tested it by actually exposing yourself to the media in question?

I mean I'm not sure how the guys in VOTOMS are supposed to be some peak of plausibility... But then I'm not entirely close-minded on this topic.

In any case I haven't seen the old show, only the new stuff, and I'm curious if it has an original or unique hook to it, since it covers pretty well-trodden ground.

EDIT - sorry, directed at poor Batman.

[Batman]

That sounds a lot more like Power Armour than Mecha.

[Stark]

You know he posted a video right there. Regardless the distinction isn't very relevant considering how they're used, but that you capitalise both terms makes me fucking laugh.

And VOTOMS guy I'm aware of that stuff, which is why I'm curious you made a nerd pandering statement. Maybe you just knew it would be required in an environment like this, or maybe you just compare VOTOMS to Gurren Lagann. :v. Poor guys like Batman don't really have a good idea of how robots are used in shows like this, yknow.

[Batman]

I don't have to know how they are used in shows like this to know that as military vehicles, they're vastly inferior to conventional ones with the same technology. Massively taller target profile, the recoil problem for conventional projectile weapons, massively larger surface area that needs to be armoured meaning either a lot more armour tonnage or a lot less armour thickness, considerably higher ground pressure thanks to being bipedal rather than tracked...
There may be a series out there that has Mecha actually making sense without resorting to giving them a special advantage other military vehicles don't have, but I doubt it, and I don't know a single series were Mecha weren't primarily military vehicles.

[Stark]

You mean like Patlabor where they're construction equipment? It's almost like admitting you're basically totally ignorant makes your statements worthless and easily falsified. I mean in a show like gundam where typical weapons over penetrate space battleships armour obviously isn't important whereas agility is, but you have literally no way of knowing this or anything meaningful to say about it because as you admit you are totally ignorant and yet believe you 'know' what robits are, how they are used in media, how they are portrayed relative to othe vehicles, etc. In short you're a fucking idiot who declares something doesn't exist without even bothering to look.

VOTOMS guy (sorry I'm on my phone and can't see your name lol) what would you say is the most important part of the setting for you? What really hooks you on it?

[Connor MacLeod]

I knew when I saw this thread it was going to go downhill before we got past the first page.

Let's just make it clear. When people say it 'makes sense' they actually mean 'it doesn't offend my preconceived notions of right and wrong about how fiction should be.' Much as some people say vs debates should be conducted via 'common sense'. There is no actual objective standard to this, except the ones people impose on it, and those are pretty much arbitrary.

I, for example, have no problems with Mobile suits once I realized its quite easy to view them as starfighters with arms and legs. Of course I don't share the 'hard sci fi' prejudice against starfighters either so...

Also I would point out that the distinction between 'power armour' and 'giant robot' is a pretty arbitrary one itself.

[Connor MacLeod]

So yeah, in conclusion I can't say that VOTOMS is hard SF, but it's definitely more reasonable than most Mecha shows.

Gundam can be defined as 'hard' sci fi by some of the pretty broad definitions of what encompasses 'hard' sci fi to be. Its not exactly like there is an absolute, unanimously agreed definition about what is 'hard' and what is 'soft', even if such arbitrary terms actually had any meaning.

And to hopefully spare you alot of pain because I can see you are going to butt heads with people if you aren't warned: Try to avoid injecting alot of your preconceptions into this. More arguments on this board start because people drag their preconceptions into a discussion, and preconceived notions of what 'does' and 'does not' make sense in sci fi is guaranteed to star conflicts.

[Connor MacLeod]

Also.. I am going to cry because this is more Narutoforums calcs. Those never turn out well. but looking at the 30mm rifle penetration thing is already giving me a headache. Did you bother to consider multiple approaches to actually analzying this, as well as considering the limitations of recoil, weapon design and operation, and the like? I mean you're describing 30mm bullets that can penetrate through multiple floors and send multi-ton powersuits flying backwards, which should suggest insane amounts of recoil for a single shot, nevermind bursts of shots from the rifle. How does the firing suit not get sent flying away by these individual dischrages? Likewise what is the firing mechanism? Does it use cased propellant, EM acceleration, or what, because that can add to the recoil issue in non trivial ways (making it worse.)

Its all well and good to generate a single number, but numbers are meaningless without some context and reliability backing them up (which means covering all the angles, accounting for objections, etc. Saying 'I DID THE MATH, THEREFORE I AM RIGHT' is not smart, especially for 'hard' sci fi.

And when your 'mach' numbers are getting in the tens or hundreds range, you've got what is known as a hypervleocity impact. Which is where things sort of.. explosively vaporize on impact. Another non-trivial thing that has to be considered/addressed.

[Batman]

I don't see how. 'Power armour'-something I wear. My arms go in the armour's arms, my legs go in the armours legs, my head's in the armour's head. 'Giant robot'-I sit in a cockpit in the robot's head.
I also have no clue what Stark's last point was. So Mecha have been used to good effect in fiction. Hoorah. The only thing I ever said they sucked at was being vehicles of war?

[Connor MacLeod]

Who made you arbiter of power armour defintiions. This is just your whole 'numbers are easy' bullshit again. If you've actually done any degree of analysis like I have, you would realize how fucking stupid that sounds. Numbers are easy if you're using other people's work. Crunching them out oyurself ( and doing a good job of it) not so much.

[Stark]

I also have no clue what Stark's last point was. So Mecha have been used to good effect in fiction. Hoorah. The only thing I ever said they sucked at was being vehicles of war?

For reasons you 'know' are 'true' despite being entirely ignorant. I know you didn't quote my reply because you want to ignore the examples of how you're wrong, but come on. Sticking to beliefs that are shown to be false just because you like them is a bit sad. You're lucky I can't embed vimeo clips here, or I'd demonstrate how amazingly off-base you are regarding the use (and thus merit) of robots in fiction. Of course this shouldn't surprise anyone, because you freely admit YOU'VE NEVER EVEN SEEN ANY AND ARE ARGUING ENTIRELY FROM HEARSAY.

And look I just hope you being a cretin as usual hasn't scared this guy away, because I don't really know a lot about VOTOMS since I missed the original show and I'm curious what he has to say.

Please note I'm not curious what YOU have to say, because you're totally ignorant.

[willyvereb]

My username is willyvereb. I don't expect you to remember it soon enough, so for the time being "VOTOMS guy" is fine.
How did I get hooked to it?
Well, I started with the original series.
Compared to the latter installments it has a more darker atmosphere. It's like when you compare Gundam ZZ to the original Mobile Suit Gundam.
It also has a rather interesting dynamic between characters.
Chirico's "friends" are initially just lowly scumbags who try to exploit him in whatever way possible. Later on, after Chirico save their ass at least half dozen times, they do become true buddies, though. But after that we're introduced to a new cast, with new interaction dynamics.
And so on.
The story also has an air of mystery to it. First, Chirico is out to find out who set him up and to know more about that enigmatic woman. Later we learn about a secret society and their agenda.
And then it suddenly turns to the mystery surrounding Chirico himself and the secrets of the world.

If you only watched Pailsen Files you may find this surprising but I also thought that Chirico was an interesting character. He lived most of his life in war and the other half as test subject. Chirico thus isn't a very social person and only talks when really necessary. On the other hand he has lot of inner monologues, especially at the end of each episode to document how he felt over the events that were passing on. He's a lost soul who only finds peace on the battlefield. Yet he detests war and desperately seeks a different life, even if his efforts are futile.
It does also help that Chirico is a serious badass.
And no, it doesn't mean he's just skilled and tough.
Compared to his portrayal in later media, Chirico wasn't that overwhelming.
He just really knows well what to do. And quick on the wits.
Chirico was put into more deathtraps and desperate situations than I count yet the guy just betrayed all those expectations by pulling them through alive.

So yeah.
I'm a mecha fan ever since the first such show I've seen, so I really don't know what sets it apart from other Mecha.
But the above reasons were what made me become a fan of the series.

[Connor MacLeod]

I think its amusing because before I actually watched Gundam I thought pretty much the same way. ITS MECHA SO IT SUCKS. But you actually watch it and it.. makes sense. Not in a 'I AM IMPOSING MY VIEWS ON REALISM' approach, but in an in universe way. Like how in 0079 they mention that the appendages aren't always vital to the functioning of the suit (and some mobile suits actually DON'T have legs.) The fact they have thrusters and are meant to fly also means they can't really be compared to a ground vehicle (any more than you compare a helicopter or a airplane or a starfighter to a tank. Apples and oranges.) There is a reason why I said 'its a space fighter with limbs', because thats what it is. THis whole 'IT DOESN'T MAKE SENSE'' is just arbitrary crap because I DON'T LIKE THE SHAPE.

But if we're going to go down that road you might as well condemn the whole of sci fi because NONE of it really ever makes any REALISTIC sense, because we have no REALISTIC basis about how space warfare goes. Even the quasi-realistic HARD sci-fi crowd have yet to reach an actual consensus about that.

I'll also note that the whole HUR HUR MECHA SUCK thing is pretty much a betrayal of SDN style SoD from the get go. You know the whole 'we deal with it as it is and analyze it as depicted' sort of thing that is the same reason we pretend visuals aren't just pretty FX or whatnot, or we bend over backwards trying to find explanations for shit like why the Death Star's superlaser really is brute force (despite problems with things like recoil, momentum, why the planet explodes like a bomb, magical ring effects, etc.). or any number of arbitraryily defined 'inconisstencies' in whatever fiction is liked/hated/whatever.

[Stark]

That's an interesting description of VOTOMS, because it sort of sounds like it has the elements that it took a show like Gundam many series to cover - would you say it has many arcs or stories in the 52 episodes and changes tone? By contrast many of the shorter robit shows I've seen are very focused on a single plot arc or character.

ALSO because this is important is it a duelling robot show or a mass-battle robot show? I know he's in the army etc, but does it focus on man-to-man fights or the chaos of war or both?

[Batman]

Who made you arbiter of power armour defintions. This is just your whole 'numbers are easy' bullshit again. If you've actually done any degree of analysis like I have, you would realize how fucking stupid that sounds. Numbers are easy if you're using other people's work. Crunching them out oyurself ( and doing a good job of it) not so much.

I must have missed the bit where I declared that 'Lo and behold, this shall be henceforth and evermore, the one and only way to distinguish between Power Armour and Mecha, and everybody who thinks otherwise shall be terminated.'

[Connor MacLeod]

Have you forgotten your entry into this entire discussion? It started with your whole 'obligatory reminder mech/giant robots don't make sense, in case people of the forum suffered brain damage and had forgotten.' I mean I dont know where I would be without such constant PUBLIC SERVICE REMINDERS. Next you'll tell me 40K has no canon policy and is full of magic so it can't possibly make sense and I'm wasting my time.

Your entire attitude in this thread has basically been 'I am dictating what does and does not make sense' and it is ridiculously arbitrary because you laugh at one thing but ignore everything else. I mean how the fuck can you say MECHA DON'T MAKE SENSE and then still believe the shit we have in Star Wars makes sense enough to analyze? Your entire argument should basically be SCI FI ISN'T REALISTIC, DON'T BOTHER ANALYZING.

[Stark]

Why do you post useless passive aggressive bullshit like that? You said flat-out x was y and a was b. Nobody's going to take your word for it (even if it was relevant, which it isn't). How about you either actually watch the show and talk about it or fuck off, instead of making +1 posts about how butthurt you are people think you're an idiot?

VOTOMS Guy, since Batman needs education, can you describe how they use their robots in the show? Like where the emphasis is on mobility, firepower, awareness, how they fit into military organisation, etc?

[willyvereb]

Also.. I am going to cry because this is more Narutoforums calcs. Those never turn out well. but looking at the 30mm rifle penetration thing is already giving me a headache. Did you bother to consider multiple approaches to actually analzying this, as well as considering the limitations of recoil, weapon design and operation, and the like? I mean you're describing 30mm bullets that can penetrate through multiple floors and send multi-ton powersuits flying backwards, which should suggest insane amounts of recoil for a single shot, nevermind bursts of shots from the rifle. How does the firing suit not get sent flying away by these individual dischrages? Likewise what is the firing mechanism? Does it use cased propellant, EM acceleration, or what, because that can add to the recoil issue in non trivial ways (making it worse.)

Its all well and good to generate a single number, but numbers are meaningless without some context and reliability backing them up (which means covering all the angles, accounting for objections, etc. Saying 'I DID THE MATH, THEREFORE I AM RIGHT' is not smart, especially for 'hard' sci fi.

And when your 'mach' numbers are getting in the tens or hundreds range, you've got what is known as a hypervleocity impact. Which is where things sort of.. explosively vaporize on impact. Another non-trivial thing that has to be considered/addressed.

And what you're doing here is to over-analyze fiction.
Fiction emulates reality, does not replicate it.
Some of the more obvious physical rules apply while others are blatantly contradicted or even ignored.
It's something made for people's entertainment, not to prove various engineering concepts.
Really, all you do just to claim a bunch of scientific BS to mystify the results.
While the process is generally simple.
It isn't like the result of these calcs are absolute. They are just approximate values for ordination.
If there's weapon that was calced to have 10MJ and other which was calced to 15MJ, in a VS debate we can only say that the second weapon "might" be stronger than the first.
There are a number of factors for which we just cannot account so fictional calcs almost always work with very high margin of error.

But yeah, the thing about recoil and the ridiculous Mach numbers is why I ignored the part where the projectile appears to send the other mech flying.
The lack of similarly massive kickback could be explained by the mecha possessing a form of "super strength" and its required secondary powers (which in general does a whole bunch of fun with the mass and ground pressure). But that would've opened another huge can of worms.

So I just went with the most direct portion of the feat. As in, the projectile penetrating roughly 1000mm of steel.
But depending on angle, the thickness of those steel floors varied between 726 to 987mm. That's why the result is from 15 to 27 mega-joules.
There might be more variables but the more precise you want to get, the less informations you have at your disposal.
This is especially true for fictional calcs.

[Connor MacLeod]

And what you're doing here is to over-analyze fiction.
Fiction emulates reality, does not replicate it.
Some of the more obvious physical rules apply while others are blatantly contradicted or even ignored.
It's something made for people's entertainment, not to prove various engineering concepts.
Really, all you do just to claim a bunch of scientific BS to mystify the results.
While the process is generally simple.
It isn't like the result of these calcs are absolute. They are just approximate values for ordination.
If there's weapon that was calced to have 10MJ and other which was calced to 15MJ, in a VS debate we can only say that the second weapon "might" be stronger than the first.
There are a number of factors for which we just cannot account so fictional calcs almost always work with very high margin of error.

Its not 'over analyze' its 'expect it to be consistent.' If you're going to play the game where you analyze fiction by real life standards, you can't just pick and choose which parts of i you're going to use and ignore. You might as well just say 'any number will do' and pick one at random. you can say they're 40 gigatons or 20 milliwatts and its all going to mean the same (eg its arbitrary.) Or are you saying that all fiction should be treated like road runner cartoons lest we 'over analyze' it and a number need not have any consistency at all? Because thats basically what your argument is.

But yeah, the thing about recoil and the ridiculous Mach numbers is why I ignored the part where the projectile appears to send the other mech flying.
The lack of similarly massive kickback could be explained by the mecha possessing a form of "super strength" and its required secondary powers (which in general does a whole bunch of fun with the mass and ground pressure). But that would've opened another huge can of worms.

You do realize the same thing that sends the trooper hit by the projectile flying backwards as you note in your analysis is going to apply to the guy firing at LEAST as much right? you pretty much handwaved that way by the whole 'we can't over-analyze' thing.

So I just went with the most direct portion of the feat. As in, the projectile penetrating roughly 1000mm of steel.
But depending on angle, the thickness of those steel floors varied between 726 to 987mm. That's why the result is from 15 to 27 mega-joules.
There might be more variables but the more precise you want to get, the less informations you have at your disposal.
This is especially true for fictional calcs.

This is where you based it on the 37mm German gun?