The Inferiority of the Chiss Compared to the Galaxy Proper

[Illuminatus Primus]

The Chiss independently developed star-travel, perhaps by tapping ancient memories of the original colonization effort that brought them to Csilla. They now rule a sizable sector of the Unknown Regions.

Somewhat unrelated, but interesting: the Chiss did not evolve on Csilla. This supports the idea they could very well be descendants of ancient human pre-FTL travel colonization attempts that got lost beyond the galactic disk.

They control a single sector beyond the galactic disk. A casual glance of any picture of spiral galaxy will tell you a section of space outside the disk contains almost nothing.

The Chiss maintain impressive fleets dedicated to protecting Csilla and her territories. They have colonized over two dozen worlds. Chiss colonies are sparsely-populated production centers for resources that are then transported back to Csilla.

The "lightly populated" Chommell Sector comprised 36 full-member worlds and 40,000 settled dependencies, according to the AOTC ICS.

The basic need to manage Csilla’s population as well as gathering resources without upsetting their homeworld’s ecosystem governs much of their space programs. Since the worlds in their territory more than suffice for the total Chiss population needs (estimated at just shy of five trillion), the question remains as to just what the Chiss are looking for.

The secret retreat world of Emperor Palpatine, Byss, had a population of 19.7 billion alone.

The entire Chiss civilization is only two-and-a-half hundred times larger than the population of the Emperor’s private retreat world.

The heart of Chiss politics lies on Csilla, and in the four ruling families. At the House Palace in Csilla’s capital city of Csaplar can be found the Cabinet and Parliament. The 28 outlying Chiss colonies are represented in the Parliament by apointed governors, or House leaders.

There are only 29 proper Chiss worlds. Twenty-nine.

The Chiss military is a sizable force. The Nuruodo family is ultimately in charge of the fleet and army. The military has never been required to act as a single unit, so it is partitioned into 28 colonial units called Phalanxes.

Each of the Phalanxes often refered to is only the local military stationed at an individual planet.

The Imperial Remnant had over a thousand major systems.

So much for those ideas that only if the Chiss helped in the NJO, everything would be fine!

The Chiss have about 2.9% of the significant territory of the Imperial Remnant.

The Chiss have independently developed analogs for galactic standard technologies. The Chiss hyperdrive, while not as efficient as the latest model from Corellian Engineering Corporation, is nonetheless competent and capable for traversing the distances of their territory.

Wow. The Chiss hyperdrive is competent at traversing the distances of their own territory.

The fact they've had to develop their own immitations and analogs for galactic standard technology reveals why it is inferior.

Modern Chiss spacecraft use this anchor-point network for hyperspace travel within Chiss space. Chiss vessels thus lack navicomputers and are unable to safely travel beyond the Chiss borders.

Some military juggernaught. Can't leave their own territory.

It is believed that the Chiss do not have a starship larger than an escort frigate (about 300 meters in length).

The Chiss can't field any starship (no reference to warships, only a starships here) even three-hundred meters in length. The United Federation of Planets fields a more lengthy vessel in the Soveriegn-class battlecruiser Enterprise-E by over a factor of two.

Three-hundred meter-long battleships at best with inferior analog weapon systems that cannot navigate independently or even leave their territory? How threatening.

A significant portion of the CEDF, Syndic Mitth’raw’nuruodo’s Household Phalanx, has taken an extended leave of the rest of the fleet to deal with encroaching threats. While some would call this action secession and treason, the ruling families have taken care not to stir the populace with such inflammatory talk. Thrawn’s Phalanx has teamed with a cell of Imperials to guard the Chiss territory in a much more proactive manner than the Chiss would ordinarily be comfortable with.While the ruling families pretend to be oblivious to such actions, the average Chiss does indeed know.

As Thrawn's "household phalanx" and as such is only one planet's worth of Chiss military might.

I'd like to remind those who wank to the idea of Thrawn's holdouts out in the galactic backwaters that the only demonstrated substance that amounted to a single reinforced stone fortress, a handful of gunships cobbled with TIE parts, and a handful of extremely upgraded Clawcraft for intragalactic work far beyond Chiss territory. That is it.

They have developed technology comparable to the rest of the galaxy, and see no need for trade. Their culturally-encoded contempt for “lesser” aliens also prohibits them from friendly relations with neighboring species.

Wow. A bunch of backward isolationist racists with poor production capabilities and only comparable, not equal technology with galactic norm. I see more in common with holdouts in the wilderness of the American Deep South than I do with some secret cadre of übermensch with hidden shadow fleets.

Since they won't trade or even have friendly relations with Imperials, I don't see much technological transfer going to be happening other than whatever Thrawn might have left in their territory for them to try and copy. Likely not much cooperation from engineers in Pelleaon's dominion though.

A hybrid of Imperial and Chiss technologies, the clawcraft resembles a TIE-ball cockpit with an extended twin ion bank.

Thus, the Clawcraft's performance is likely due to the Imperial part of that hybrid, and Chiss attempts to copy it. Not reflective of Chiss technology.

Chiss clawcraft are Imperial-Chiss hybrids. And since the Chiss government is uninterested in trade or relations with “inferiors,” that excludes the Imperials. So, no, it is doubtful the Chiss government does have clawcraft.

The clawcraft is likely an attempt by Thrawn's household phalanx to bolster their own numbers by canabalizing whatever Imperial technology was left behind during Thrawn's campiagns. Seeing as he had to worry about Spaarti cylinders and ancient fleets of slave-rigged frigates in the Katana fleet, I don't imagine him leaving Sector groups worth of fleets that some seem to delude exist out in the Unknown Regions with little evidence.

Given that the clawcraft is STILL described as lacking a navicomputer or even warhead launchers in the New Jedi Order Sourcebook, IIRC, Jag Fel's squad must be a rare group of clawcraft specially customized and modified and bolstered with Imperial technology that the Chiss couldn't duplicate STILL to produce a mere navicomputer.

EDIT: here was the last big Chiss debate thread.

[Master of Ossus]

IP, while I agree with the article (and, in fact, always have had that general sense of the Chiss), I disagree with one of your conclusions.

I think that Chiss technology, at least in terms of starfighters, is at least as good as the NR's, indicating that it has also either improved since Thrawn left or was always superior.

The Chiss clawcraft obviously offers significantly better performance than the TIE models Thrawn would have left behind (with the possible exception of the TIE Defender). They are significantly more maneuverable than the NR's newest and best starfighter, the XJ X-Wing. They are at least as fast or faster than the XJ, which in turn is much speedier than the E-Wing, which was speedier than the A-Wing, which was speedier than the TIE Interceptor--the most advanced starfighter Thrawn would have been likely to leave. The ones we've observed seem to have similar firepower to the XJ, though Kyp Durron appears to feel that they actually have SUPERIOR firepower to the XJ. They do not appear to require substantial maintenance, and seem to require significantly less than the XJ.

Their navicomputers (which, as you pointed out, were likely Imperial in design) appear to have similar capabilities to the R-unit droids used in NR starfighters, and the range and speed of the two ships in hyperspace appears to be fairly comparable. I think this indicates clearly that the Chiss have inputted at least some portions of their technology into the clawcraft, and that the ship's overall performance is significantly better for it, rather than being worse as you suggest.

[Xon]

Thrawn obviously was a stratigical genius(mostly), but that doesnt automatically make the rest of his species a genius as well.

With this info, the Chiss obviously not all stratigical genius, because the level their are outclassed by is rediculious and they have not appears to made any moves to fix the technological disparity.

[Xon]

Master of Ossus, the problem with that is in Starwars; It is capital ships which dominate a battlefield.

[Master of Ossus]

Master of Ossus, the problem with that is in Starwars; It is capital ships which dominate a battlefield.

Obviously, but the starfighter's performance is likely indicative of the technology that is applied to it. I disagree with IP that the Chiss technology is significantly inferior to that of the rest of the Galaxy, and as evidence I point to the starfighters. The Chiss' best starfighter is obviously superior in almost all respects than the NR's best starfighter. This is impossible unless:

a. The Imperial technology is superior to the NR's. This is not true.
b. The Chiss technology is superior to the NR's. This does not appear to be true.
c. The Chiss technology is superior in certain fields than the Imperial technology, and vice versa.

Either b or c must be true in order for the Chiss clawcraft to be superior to the XJ X-Wing. I have shown that it is. Thus, I dispute IP's contention that the Chiss clawcraft merely attempts to replicate the performance of Imperial starfighters from the Thrawn era, and contend that the clawcraft is actually far superior to them.

[Illuminatus Primus]

I think that Chiss technology, at least in terms of starfighters, is at least as good as the NR's, indicating that it has also either improved since Thrawn left or was always superior.

Sydnic Mitth'raw'nuroudo's Household Phalanx != Chiss civilization.

The Chiss civilization does not field Clawcraft. The Clawcraft in Dark Journey are stated to be modified and demonstrated to be heavily altered from the standard spaceframe in the fact they have provisions to support them on intragalactic missions and possess a navicomputer and missile launchers, both unfielded by the Chiss and their technological base.

Jag consulted the navicomputer--a feature newly added to his clawcraft...

Their new clawcraft boasted navigational systems and hyperdrives far superior to their accustomed ships, as well as enhanced weapon systems.

Emphases mine.

Isn't part of the Chiss government, and the examples cited are not even standard issue examples of said fighters.

Thus Clawcraft are not representative of Chiss starfighter technology.

[Master of Ossus]

I think that Chiss technology, at least in terms of starfighters, is at least as good as the NR's, indicating that it has also either improved since Thrawn left or was always superior.

Sydnic Mitth'raw'nuroudo's Household Phalanx != Chiss civilization.

The Chiss civilization does not field Clawcraft. Thus Clawcraft are not representative of Chiss technology.

Then, where is the higher technology coming from?

You have shown that the Chiss do not like to trade technology with non-Chiss, however I do not believe that you can contend one house of the Chiss themselves to be vastly more technologically advanced than the other houses.

Clearly, the Chiss technology that the Mitth'raw'nuroudo are bringing to the table is superior to some of the stuff that the Imperials are using, but that technology is almost certainly not exclusive to their household phalanx. I thus repeat my previous statement that the Chiss are actually more developed in certain fields than their NR counterparts.

For further evidence of this, the biological weapon that the Chiss worked up to kill the YV was completed on a fairly short time-frame, with Chiss resources. The NR was not able to duplicate the feat, although they had all the information that the Chiss needed, and in fact delivered that information to the Chiss. It would thus appear that the Chiss are ALSO superior in their applications of biological research/genetic manipulation, even if they lag behind the Galaxy proper in other fields.

[Illuminatus Primus]

I think that Chiss technology, at least in terms of starfighters, is at least as good as the NR's, indicating that it has also either improved since Thrawn left or was always superior.

Sydnic Mitth'raw'nuroudo's Household Phalanx != Chiss civilization.

The Chiss civilization does not field Clawcraft. Thus Clawcraft are not representative of Chiss technology.

Then, where is the higher technology coming from?

It came from Thrawn. Thrawn's Phalanx has simply put to use the technology Thrawn brought them during his mapping campiagns. Keep in mind in this period the Missile Boat was developed by him. They have had decades to work on it.

You have shown that the Chiss do not like to trade technology with non-Chiss, however I do not believe that you can contend one house of the Chiss themselves to be vastly more technologically advanced than the other houses.

You did read what I quoted, right?

A significant portion of the CEDF, Syndic Mitth’raw’nuruodo’s Household Phalanx, has taken an extended leave of the rest of the fleet to deal with encroaching threats. While some would call this action secession and treason, the ruling families have taken care not to stir the populace with such inflammatory talk. Thrawn’s Phalanx has teamed with a cell of Imperials to guard the Chiss territory in a much more proactive manner than the Chiss would ordinarily be comfortable with. While the ruling families pretend to be oblivious to such actions, the average Chiss does indeed know.

Sydnic Mitth'raw'norudo's Household Phalanx has affectively left the Chiss dominion and the CEDF. Their actions are considered secession and even treason but the ruling families cannot deny the popularity of the movement. They're isolationist and do not even admit the existance of the Hand of Thrawn, and you expect them to be freely in consort with each other?!

We know they've been consorting with the Imperials. We know they have dealt with Thrawn personally during his mapping expedition. We know during this period he destroyed Grand Admiral Zaarin and had the Missile Boat developed. I don't see why a trickle-down affect of surplus to his little cell of fanatics is implausable, or even unlikely, given the fact that the alternative is you expect a little cadre of 29 worlds to independently develop superior technology to 25 thousand years of millions of worlds and millions of species developing.

Clearly, the Chiss technology that the Mitth'raw'nuroudo are bringing to the table is superior to some of the stuff that the Imperials are using, but that technology is almost certainly not exclusive to their household phalanx. I thus repeat my previous statement that the Chiss are actually more developed in certain fields than their NR counterparts.

For further evidence of this, the biological weapon that the Chiss worked up to kill the YV was completed on a fairly short time-frame, with Chiss resources. The NR was not able to duplicate the feat, although they had all the information that the Chiss needed, and in fact delivered that information to the Chiss. It would thus appear that the Chiss are ALSO superior in their applications of biological research/genetic manipulation, even if they lag behind the Galaxy proper in other fields.

No. The Chiss were chosen because they had good but not neccessarily superior biogeneticists, and primarily by Scaur's own words "it was highly unlikely that the enemy would have infiltrated them." They're working for NRI in a New Republic bioweapons program. Please explain to me how this demonstrates the superior biotech of the Chiss home phalanxes and isolationist worlds.

[Illuminatus Primus]

To boot, the RPG stats I just got emailed don't demonstrate massive advantages for the standard Clawcraft anyway.

Chiss Clawcraft (standard issue) vs. XJ X-Wing

Cost: XJ X-Wing (new XJ: 140,000 Cr. vs C.C.: 462,000 Cr; the XJ costs less than a third to produce than the Clawcraft)

Target Profile: XJ X-Wing (C.C. wide curving blades make above, left, right, and bottom arcs all more vulnerable, aft and fore arcs are comparable to the XJ)

Consumables: Clawcraft, 1 Week (to be expected; Clawcraft appear to be a jack-of-all-trades fighter that is the best the Phalanx has to offer in all fields and is expect to operate in distant ranges in galactic halo)

Hyperdrive Multipier: XJ X-Wing (Class 1 vs. Class 1.5)

Manuvering: Clawcraft, +16 vs XJ, + 11 (to be expected, it is of the TIE lineage)

Speed: Clawcraft, Ramming-12 Squares vs. XJ's 9

Atmospheric Speed: Clawcraft (12,200 km/h vs. XJ’s 11,500 km/h) (Note: WoTC figures adjusted by factor of 10 to make more sense with ICS figures)

Warheads: Probably XJ X-Wing (XJ- 3 x launchers w/ 9 torpedo magazine vs. C.C.'s nothing)

Lasers: XJ X-Wing (XJ has 9d10 x 2 firepower and equal range and accuracy vs. C.C. 7d10 x 2 firepower)

Shields: XJ X-Wing (50 points vs. C.C.'s 40)

Hull: XJ X-Wing (hull 150 vs. C.C. hull 60)

Defense (Armor): Clawcraft (24 vs. XJ 22)

The Clawcraft is superior to the XJ X-Wing in the areas of speed, atmospheric speed (making it versatile and adding to my multi-purpose craft theory), manuverability, armor, and operational range.

However, the XJ X-Wing has superior hull integrity, superior shields, superior weaponry, superior hyperdrive, and a better target profile.

Oh yeah, and it costs less than a third of the Clawcraft. And the standard model has no navicomputer and no warhead tubes either.

Disregarding the fact that the XJ3 is even better, and the new Series 4 E-Wings even more so. Both fighters are more recent than the several years old XJ X-Wing.

[Kerneth]

Got stats on the Series 4 E-Wing in that handy book of yours?

I'm curious about whether the XJ X-Wing is really better than the latest version of the E-Wing.

[Illuminatus Primus]

It seems logical to me. The XJ isn't that superior to the A-Wing (I've seen no evidence) and its performance seems slightly better than the E-Wing. Since the E-Wing was a superior spaceframe to begin with than the X-Wing, releasing a brand new model at the same time as the XJ3 suggests it is probably better than the older XJ.

[Kerneth]

It seems logical to me too but it's been mentioned at least once that the XJ is the best NR/GFFA starfighter, faster and more manueverable than the A-Wing or E-Wing. I'm just wondering whether the person claiming that had any actual facts to back the theory up or what, since I've been a fan of the E-Wing design.

Though I do wonder how the cockpit opens with that laser cannon right over it.

[Illuminatus Primus]

I'm going to try and get a big set of XJ stats, XJ3 stats, E-Wing stats, A-Wing stats, original X-Wing stats, etc. and seperate hype from reality.

The E-Wing's laser cannon pivots 90 degrees up when it lands so the cockpit opens. This could be seen in DE.

[His Divine Shadow]

Somewhat unrelated, but interesting: the Chiss did not evolve on Csilla. This supports the idea they could very well be descendants of ancient human pre-FTL travel colonization attempts that got lost beyond the galactic disk.

Nitpick, they don't have to be STL civilization, they could have slow FTL too.

[His Divine Shadow]

Master of Ossus, the problem with that is in Starwars; It is capital ships which dominate a battlefield.

That is a problem???

[Illuminatus Primus]

Somewhat unrelated, but interesting: the Chiss did not evolve on Csilla. This supports the idea they could very well be descendants of ancient human pre-FTL travel colonization attempts that got lost beyond the galactic disk.

Nitpick, they don't have to be STL civilization, they could have slow FTL too.

Yeah this is more likely, and you're right.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Master of Ossus, the problem with that is in Starwars; It is capital ships which dominate a battlefield.

That is a problem???

Expressing that the fighter tech, even if superior, though they've been demonstrated not to be better, would not matter because capital ships are the beef of SW warfare.

I guess.