Schoolchildren served 6-year old pork

[Borgholio]

They even whipped up a batch of gravy to hide the taste...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/04/3 ... mg00000022

If you're looking to try aged meats, head to your local steakhouse. Hawkins County School District in Tennessee ages its prime cuts for a little too long.

A county commissioner who's also a parent was floored when a Joseph Rogers Primary School lunch worker sent him a photo of the pork roast that the district was feeding kids. The meat in the photo looked unappetizing enough, but the date on the packaging prompted a district-wide change in school lunch policies, according to WBIR.

Some of the pork roast was dated 2009.

"These high-schoolers -- they understand if they see something they are not going to like, they don't eat it," Hawkins County Commissioner Michael Herrell told the local station. "But when you get to these kindergartners, first- and second-graders, do they really know if the meat is bad or not?"

The six-year-old pork roast wasn't served at Joseph Rogers, but several other schools did offer it to kids on April 22, the Associated Press reports. One school's cafeteria workers made gravy to cover up the foul taste, Herrell said.

It's unclear whether the meat -- which was frozen all those years before it was thawed and served -- had become tainted, and there were no reports of sick children, according to WATE.

Hawkins County Director of Schools Steve Starnes told WBIR that they tested the old meat after he found out about it on April 23, and the tests didn't find anything harmful.

"There were some meats with dates of 2009, '10, '11 in the freezer," Starnes said. "Our child nutrition supervisor had the cafeteria managers look at the meat, do the tests, and see if it was OK."

Nonetheless, he said, the district has thrown out all the offending lunch meat and will strictly follow USDA guidelines for storing and serving food in the future.

USDA guidelines recommend that frozen roasts be thrown out after four to 12 months.

[Broomstick]

If the meat really has been deep-frozen for six years, never thawed during that interval, then it is safe to eat. It may not taste good, and the nutrition isn't optimum, but it is safe.

However, the psychological aspects of the situation are unacceptable.

[biostem]

A friend of mine has managed restaurants in the past - one thing he always pointed out to me was how a good restaurant manager stayed on top of things like the food inventory, expiration dates, and so forth. Even if the meat was suitable for consumption, then solution would have been to grind it up and make chili or some sort of stew. Either way, it should not have sit in the freezer for that long - someone should have been doing inventory at least a couple of times a week, and made sure to rotate anything that was about to expire/getting old to be served sooner. It's because of this kind of oversight that food costs go up, and cuts end up needing to be made later.

[Joun_Lord]

I had a friend who had some pork chops buried in his deep freezer for like 3 years and we cooked them and ate them because why the fuck not, the USDA ain't our boss we'll do what we want! It tasted weird, kinda bland like meat that has been freezer burned, and only was decent after being fried in some BBQ sauce but didn't make us sick.

But thats a couple adults who knew what they were getting into. Serving such old meat to children that might be younger then the meat they are eating is just unacceptable. They got lucky that it wasn't tainted but it very easily could have been.

Is this school system so damned cash strapped that they need to serve ancient meat?

[Broomstick]

Meat lost in a freezer for six years isn't about lack of funds, it's about people not properly managing inventory and not giving a fuck.

[Patroklos]

A friend of mine has managed restaurants in the past - one thing he always pointed out to me was how a good restaurant manager stayed on top of things like the food inventory, expiration dates, and so forth. Even if the meat was suitable for consumption, then solution would have been to grind it up and make chili or some sort of stew. Either way, it should not have sit in the freezer for that long - someone should have been doing inventory at least a couple of times a week, and made sure to rotate anything that was about to expire/getting old to be served sooner. It's because of this kind of oversight that food costs go up, and cuts end up needing to be made later.

FIFO. First in, first out. I agree with the above wholeheartedly. I have run many a Navy kitchen and that is a bedrock principle. People get fired for violating it.

[KroLazuxy_87]

I'd be curious about the kinds of tests run to assess the safety of the meat. If they were simply looking for bacterial/fungal growth they may not have been getting the whole picture regarding the meat's safety - only the most likely culprits of acute illness.

[Patroklos]

In the military the Army veterinarians do the check. They do it for the whole military (the name is just a historical curiosity) and generally they take temperatures and look for signs of previous thawing or growth like you mentioned. They do have access to labs for further testing but in most cases unless you are talking about a very big lot of food the cost of the test is greater than the replacement cost of the food so they just error on the safe side. I've cleared a ship out of food twice, once for a fuel oil spill that burst into the reefer (obvious) and once when the reefer went down for a day and possible thawing could have occurred (not so obvious). That was not for 6 year old meat but generally stuff that expired days before but I wanted to have extended a few days due to logistics issues (supply ship broke down/was rerouted, that sort of thing). I can't imagine that when encountering this anyone could have thought it a good idea to play with that stuff.

[Broomstick]

Meat that is genuinely frozen for that length of time shouldn't have any pathogenic growth. Eating it isn't dangerous, but that's not the point. It's definitely past it's "best by" date, and it's hard to verify that the meat did indeed remain safely frozen over that time period. It was a picture of the meat packaging that gave them the date. No reports of illness.

[KroLazuxy_87]

I take issue with the assumption that meat devoid of pathogenic growth is safe. Degredation of proteins in the meat over time (even when frozen) and how the body handles them can still lead to harm. There are numerous organic chemicals that can affect a person's body in ways besides infecting them with a disease. Kidney damage and errors in gene replication come to my mind first. Like Patroklos said, "I can't imagine that when encountering this anyone could have thought it a good idea to play with that stuff."

[Isolder74]

This is insane. No matter whether or not the meat was not spoiled is besides the point. The only correct coarse of action for this situation in a food service environment is to log the item as expired and write it off as a loss.

Given the food service rule of first in first out how did this stuff end up even still being around.

[Broomstick]

I take issue with the assumption that meat devoid of pathogenic growth is safe. Degredation of proteins in the meat over time (even when frozen) and how the body handles them can still lead to harm.

As test subjects, people have eaten frozen food that was frozen a LOT longer than 6 years (how do you think various military organizations determined how long they can store food in the first place?). It is not recommended, but provided no thawing occurred during the time period it is EXTREMLY unlikely anything bad for you would have occurred in the meat during that time. This is especially true of commercially packed items in unopened containers.

The biggest issue is freezer burn, which is a result of exposure to air (not happening with proper packaging that is unopened) or fluctuating temperatures (again, the longer the storage interval the more likely this is to happen). Freezer burn affects the taste/texture/appearance of the food, not the safety of the food.

The biggest safety issue in this case is not how old is the meat, but have there been and thaw-freeze-thaw-freeze cycles during the time it was in storage. THAT is what determines if there is a health hazard here, and of course the longer the time interval the harder it is to guarantee that never happened.

There are numerous organic chemicals that can affect a person's body in ways besides infecting them with a disease. Kidney damage and errors in gene replication come to my mind first

Since there would be no cell division in pork tissue at freezing temperatures you can rule out errors of gene replication.

Likewise, kidney damage is extremely unlikely under the circumstances. It would take a shit-ton of acellular myoglobin, as an example, to do that and while no doubt some myoglobin is liberated during freezing there would be no more after six years frozen than when it was initially frozen.

Like Patroklos said, "I can't imagine that when encountering this anyone could have thought it a good idea to play with that stuff."

No, it's not a good idea - frozen meat has an expiration date because after that point nutrition and taste degrades, and as time goes by it becomes more likely you'll have an episode of thawing or some such. Food is supposed to be turned over. That's why canned foods have expiration dates typically of about 2 years on them - properly stored the food will last many years longer than that.

I have eaten canned food 5 years past "expiration date" with no harmful effects - but I made sure the seal on the can was not breached and there were no other Bad Signs. I have eaten meat frozen for 2 years at home and while the taste was a bit off it wasn't bad. I am currently eating the last of my frozen vegetable stocks, again, home frozen, the oldest of which are 2 years old - they're going into soups and casseroles where any freezer burn off tastes will be hidden. The whole POINT of freezing foods is to allow long-term storage. In theory, food frozen and stored under 0 F/-17 C will last indefinitely. Provided nothing interrupts that temperature during storage.

Expiration dates on food are very conservative and presume less than perfect conditions.

[Broomstick]

This is insane. No matter whether or not the meat was not spoiled is besides the point. The only correct coarse of action for this situation in a food service environment is to log the item as expired and write it off as a loss.

Given the food service rule of first in first out how did this stuff end up even still being around.

As I said - someone doesn't give a fuck about doing their job properly.

Absolutely, this was wrong. My emphasis on "unlikely to be a danger" is not to say that it's OK, just that no one is likely to have been hurt by this particular incident. However, if they're being THAT careless/fucked up you have to wonder what else isn't being taken care, and THAT concerns me more. Proper handling of thawed food? Proper dishwashing? Handwashing? What else has gone off the rails here?

[KroLazuxy_87]

I take issue with the assumption that meat devoid of pathogenic growth is safe. Degredation of proteins in the meat over time (even when frozen) and how the body handles them can still lead to harm.

As test subjects, people have eaten frozen food that was frozen a LOT longer than 6 years (how do you think various military organizations determined how long they can store food in the first place?). It is not recommended, but provided no thawing occurred during the time period it is EXTREMLY unlikely anything bad for you would have occurred in the meat during that time. This is especially true of commercially packed items in unopened containers.

The biggest issue is freezer burn, which is a result of exposure to air (not happening with proper packaging that is unopened) or fluctuating temperatures (again, the longer the storage interval the more likely this is to happen). Freezer burn affects the taste/texture/appearance of the food, not the safety of the food.

The biggest safety issue in this case is not how old is the meat, but have there been and thaw-freeze-thaw-freeze cycles during the time it was in storage. THAT is what determines if there is a health hazard here, and of course the longer the time interval the harder it is to guarantee that never happened.

Yes, I agree with this. I'm just stating that because of my background in microbiology and biochemistry, I would not recommend eating meat that has been frozen for 6 years even if it could be proven that there is no evidence of contamination from microorganisms. It's a 0.5% chance of anything being wrong and a 0.5% chance that any damage done would be noticeable or lasting. I'm merely being nitpicky - sorry for the confusion. I should have made my stance clearer.

There are numerous organic chemicals that can affect a person's body in ways besides infecting them with a disease. Kidney damage and errors in gene replication come to my mind first

Since there would be no cell division in pork tissue at freezing temperatures you can rule out errors of gene replication.

Likewise, kidney damage is extremely unlikely under the circumstances. It would take a shit-ton of acellular myoglobin, as an example, to do that and while no doubt some myoglobin is liberated during freezing there would be no more after six years frozen than when it was initially frozen.

I'm well aware that there is no cell division in dead, frozen pork. I meant in humans. Numerous chemicals can disrupt the gene replication and protein production processes. Chemicals such as Canavanine, which is found in the seeds of certain plants, disrupt protein formation. There are numerous chemicals (and other causes) that can cause Deamination and Depurination, resulting in gene replication errors. Luckily, most errors are identified and fixed before being passed on.

The kidney damage was definitely more of a stretch for me and although I understand how loose proteins can screw up nephrons in the kidneys, I realize it's doubtful that any degraded peptides from the pork would wind up in the blood. Point yielded.

Like Patroklos said, "I can't imagine that when encountering this anyone could have thought it a good idea to play with that stuff."

No, it's not a good idea - frozen meat has an expiration date because after that point nutrition and taste degrades, and as time goes by it becomes more likely you'll have an episode of thawing or some such. Food is supposed to be turned over. That's why canned foods have expiration dates typically of about 2 years on them - properly stored the food will last many years longer than that.

I have eaten canned food 5 years past "expiration date" with no harmful effects - but I made sure the seal on the can was not breached and there were no other Bad Signs. I have eaten meat frozen for 2 years at home and while the taste was a bit off it wasn't bad. I am currently eating the last of my frozen vegetable stocks, again, home frozen, the oldest of which are 2 years old - they're going into soups and casseroles where any freezer burn off tastes will be hidden. The whole POINT of freezing foods is to allow long-term storage. In theory, food frozen and stored under 0 F/-17 C will last indefinitely. Provided nothing interrupts that temperature during storage.

Expiration dates on food are very conservative and presume less than perfect conditions.

I also ignore expiration dates - within reason - at home. Most of those dates aren't for the consumer, they're for the store that stocks the food. Regardless of the target audience, the dates speak more to the quality of the container's seal than the longevity of the food.

A side note on canned vegetables: always bring them up to temperature before eating them if you're not familiar with the canning process used. (I actually ignore this rule, among many others, but I'm not dead yet) Botulism prefers low-oxygen environments and its spores are particularly hardy. It's much easier to kill the organism and degrade the toxin it releases (boiling ~10minutes) than it is to kill the spores (120C at pressure for ~30minutes) so lesser canning techniques can result in canned food containing the spores.

[Broomstick]

Yes, I agree with this. I'm just stating that because of my background in microbiology and biochemistry, I would not recommend eating meat that has been frozen for 6 years even if it could be proven that there is no evidence of contamination from microorganisms. It's a 0.5% chance of anything being wrong and a 0.5% chance that any damage done would be noticeable or lasting. I'm merely being nitpicky - sorry for the confusion. I should have made my stance clearer.

Oh, yeah, I don't recommend it either, but in a situation like this it would be important to reassure the parents that the chances of actual harm is extremely low. It doesn't excuse such a thing, but such reassurances are important.

I'm well aware that there is no cell division in dead, frozen pork. I meant in humans. Numerous chemicals can disrupt the gene replication and protein production processes. Chemicals such as Canavanine, which is found in the seeds of certain plants, disrupt protein formation. There are numerous chemicals (and other causes) that can cause Deamination and Depurination, resulting in gene replication errors. Luckily, most errors are identified and fixed before being passed on.

I'm sure you're also aware of how many naturally occurring toxins are in fresh fruits and vegetables, too - thank goodness our livers and kidneys have the capacity to deal with most such things!

I also ignore expiration dates - within reason - at home. Most of those dates aren't for the consumer, they're for the store that stocks the food. Regardless of the target audience, the dates speak more to the quality of the container's seal than the longevity of the food.

A side note on canned vegetables: always bring them up to temperature before eating them if you're not familiar with the canning process used. (I actually ignore this rule, among many others, but I'm not dead yet) Botulism prefers low-oxygen environments and its spores are particularly hardy. It's much easier to kill the organism and degrade the toxin it releases (boiling ~10minutes) than it is to kill the spores (120C at pressure for ~30minutes) so lesser canning techniques can result in canned food containing the spores.

I figured putting them into a casserole I baked at 400F/205C for 40 minutes would do the trick. It was from commercially canned items, too, which these days are pretty reliable.

[KroLazuxy_87]

Oh, yeah, I don't recommend it either, but in a situation like this it would be important to reassure the parents that the chances of actual harm is extremely low. It doesn't excuse such a thing, but such reassurances are important.

As usual, I compartmentalize the issue and totally overlook such obviously important things.

I'm sure you're also aware of how many naturally occurring toxins are in fresh fruits and vegetables, too - thank goodness our livers and kidneys have the capacity to deal with most such things!

So true. People often underestimate how much our bodies are doing just to keep everything normal.

I figured putting them into a casserole I baked at 400F/205C for 40 minutes would do the trick. It was from commercially canned items, too, which these days are pretty reliable.

Sounds tasty - I have a weakness for casseroles of nearly all kinds. With the recent push for more locally grown and organic foods, more instances of improperly stored and handled food are cropping up. Whole Foods Tops List Of Companies Forced To Recall Food

[Broomstick]

The tuna cassarole was two tins of canned tuna (they were small ones), three stalks of chopped celery, 1/4 white onion diced fine, 1/4 kilo mushrooms, leftover macaroni noodles from the prior night's dinner, a little dill and paprika, mixed with a can of cream of celery soup from 2005 I found in the back of the pantry. Aged soup is not required, feel free to use something more recent Cover with a layer of finely crushed potato crisps, bake at 205C for 40 minutes or whatever. Enjoy! American Midwest Depression-era food at its best.

[Borgholio]

I wonder what recipe would be used for the mammoth meat that people were rumored to have eaten several decades ago...

[Korvan]

I learned a few years ago to manage my own freezer better than I had been doing it. One summer night I went to grill up a steak that I had defrosted. Now I like my steaks rare to the point of being close to blue. I noticed that this steak tasted unusual, not bad, but something was a bit off about it. I didn't think much about it until the next week when I wondered where the hell my frozen pork chop had run off too.