Trade Negotiation

[NecronLord]

A wormhole between the Federation and the Empire has opened, some distance from Organia. After an initial war lasting several months, the Empire invaded the planet Organia, and thanks to the Organians, the Empire has been prevented from making any lasting conquests. The Organians are employing their great power to stop the Empire crossing UFP space.

You, as your capacity as Federation President, have been approached by the Empire seeking:

Access to Federation Technology such as transporters, replicators, holodecks, which are either not known in the Empire. As well as this the Empire also wants phasers, and technology that could be used to create mind-probes and borg nanoprobes.

In exchange, the Empire is prepared to export military technology to the Federation in the form of one hundred Dreadnought-class warships.

What is your response to the Imperial offer?

[Crazedwraith]

My first reaction: Oh hell no. I'm assuming over the course of the war we know what kind of government the empire actually is. Why give them technology that will allow them to be even more evil and oppressive? In return for Dreadnoughts with crews in the thousands each. Which will suck up masses of Starfleet manpower and generally be useless for starfleet's exploratory duties.

Of course, then I wondered if we say no. Does the Empire turn around and offer them to the Klingons, the Romulans and so forth?

[NecronLord]

They can't currently pass through UFP territory to make that offer to the neighbours. However, given the Organians' policy of limited benevolence, it's entirely possible that the current (effectively) military support from the Organians may continue indefinately.

Dreadnoughts would also be logistically dependent on buying fuel from the Empire, but would secure the Federation against all current threats.

Alternatively, what else might you want/request if you were the Imperial Ambassador - Trilithium and Project Genesis notes? etc.

You also know all about the Empire's repressive policies, yes. This is after the Dominion War and during ESB respectively.

[FaxModem1]

Droid technology or hyperdrive technology might be something the UFP would want instead. If this is after the Dominion War, Voyager should arrive in less than two years, with their notes and tech about slipstream technology. Voyager couldn't keep making it because of their lack of those crystals, which makes sense as Voyager was a single ship scrambling for its own survival, whereas we will have an entire corps of engineers to help develop slipstream, transwarp, etc. We can use that to reduce the speed gap, at least. But honestly, I'm going with the above poster, and going to quote Counselor Troi:

Why would we be involved with these people?

They are not good people, and I'd rather help the Rebel Alliance with fifth column support than honestly make their jobs harder, but that might be a prime directive violation. A polite, "No thank you, keep to your galaxy and we'll keep to ours." makes better sense, and when the Empire falls, we can deal with a much more benevolent New Republic or whatever.

[Borgholio]

and thanks to the Organians, the Empire has been prevented from making any lasting conquests. The Organians are employing their great power to stop the Empire crossing UFP space.

Just how powerful ARE the Organians? We know they can impart the illusion of scorching hot controls over an entire area of space, but what are their limits? Can they affect droids or computers? Say the Empire set a Stardestroyer manned with droids (or perhaps fully automated) to either BDZ the planet or ram into it at realtivistic speeds. Would they be able to stop that?

[NecronLord]

For the purpouses of our thread, infinite. If Palpatine pushes a button on a galaxy gun around Byss with data for the wormhole, he'll burn his hand. If a droid attempts to attack the UFP, it'll feel pain too, a-la Jabba's palace.

[Elheru Aran]

Organian power is mostly 'these guys can make the Federations and Klingons behave'... and that's about it. There's literally no sign they did anything beyond just making Kirk and whatshisface kiss and make nice. Didn't do much of anything when the Klinks attacked DS9 during the Dominion War. So I suspect their power is more local to their planet than anything else, and they managed to keep the peace between the Federation and Klingons mostly by the age-old tactic of "Don't make me come over there!" more than any actual strength.

I can't say I've ever seen any episode of Trek where the Organians actually exert power outside the one episode that they appear in... like, there's nothing where, say, the Klingon ship that attacks the Enterprise in Search for Spock gets Orga-bombed.

[NecronLord]

The point of the scenario is that the Empire is subjected to similar - but even more limited - restrictions. Not to argue about the Organians' abilities; the inconsistancies of Star Trek godbeings are obviously criticizable, but this scenario considers them implicitly to be able to enforce the rules in the first post. It's not an Empire vs Organians thread.

[FaxModem1]

Since the Organians are preventing trade for the Empire with anyone else, is that true for the Federation as well? Could the UFP trade with the Chiss, for instance?

[NecronLord]

Unaligned powers may move through the territory of the others, but the UFP can't move through Imperial territory without permission, nor may the empire move through Imperial space without permission.

The Chiss could go through though, or the Ferengi, or the Romulans.

However, as UFP president you can mine the wormhole, etc, to keep the guys on your side from going through, if you wish. But you'll have serious problems with the Chiss, though you could always speak to the Empire about preventing that.

[FaxModem1]

Unaligned powers may move through the territory of the others, but the UFP can't move through Imperial territory without permission, nor may the empire move through Imperial space without permission.

The Chiss could go through though, or the Ferengi, or the Romulans.

However, as UFP president you can mine the wormhole, etc, to keep the guys on your side from going through, if you wish. But you'll have serious problems with the Chiss, though you could always speak to the Empire about preventing that.

As I understand it, it is against Chiss policy to launch a pre-emptive war against anyone, due to their Non-Aggression Law. The Chiss are xenophobic, but they do trade with outsiders. As they are no friends of the empire, setting up a trade relationship with them might be possible, assuming we can get through Imperial territory to talk with them.

In any case, better to mine the wormhole and have a starbase built there, to keep anyone else from getting a leg up technologically.

Quick question, since the Empire did send forces to invade our side of the wormhole, what did this to their patrols and such, as the Rebellion might have just gotten a free hand if Imperial patrols are lessened in some areas?

[Eternal_Freedom]

Um, if there was a war lasting several months, and this was at the height if Imperial power, surely the Federation woudl be far more concerned with rebuilding all the shit that got blown up in that war? Like, say, most of Starfleet?

For that matter, will the Organians act to prevent any other smaller polity from taking advantage of the devastation wrought on the Federation to seize territory?

[NecronLord]

Quick question, since the Empire did send forces to invade our side of the wormhole, what did this to their patrols and such, as the Rebellion might have just gotten a free hand if Imperial patrols are lessened in some areas?

The aid to the rebellion has not been significant, only a few ships were used by the Imperial Expeditionary force.

Um, if there was a war lasting several months, and this was at the height if Imperial power, surely the Federation woudl be far more concerned with rebuilding all the shit that got blown up in that war? Like, say, most of Starfleet?

That would be a matter of policy for your office concern, Mr President. Losses over the war included 12% of starfleet (any ships the Imperial expedition encountered in fact) and several outlying colony worlds, however, the Galactic Empire did not to your knowledge sieze sufficient examples of Federation technology during its withdrawal when the guns stopped working.

For that matter, will the Organians act to prevent any other smaller polity from taking advantage of the devastation wrought on the Federation to seize territory?

A hundred warships would be very useful for this reason.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Yes, a hundred warships would be useful, but if only 12% of Starfleet are gone (and that's KIA, presumably there are very few ships that were damaged not destroyed) then the main concern goes away. Clearly the Empire didn't go all-out in those few months.

If I still have 88% of Starfleet combat-ready, and I know the Imperials can't hurt me, then suddenly my worries of "the Romulans/Tholians/Breen/insert other bad guys taking advantage and invading" is much reduced. I don't even need to leave hundreds of ships guarding the wormhole.

So, honestly, I wouldn't take the trade. One hundred warships that are massively crew-intensive and obsolete by SW standards are not worth trading away some of the few interesting pieces of technology we have to an enemy that just destroyed several worlds, hundreds of starships at the least and tens of thousands of lives. No way am I trading with them unless I absolutely have to.

However, hiring some non-Federation alligned vessels to go and explore the SW end of the wormhole and acquire some basic technology (blasters, droids, hyperdrives, hypercomms) and bring it back for intensive study sounds very reasonable to me. Perhaps I would offer a contract to the Ferengi, they'll do anything if the price is right.

[The Romulan Republic]

A wormhole between the Federation and the Empire has opened, some distance from Organia. After an initial war lasting several months, the Empire invaded the planet Organia, and thanks to the Organians, the Empire has been prevented from making any lasting conquests. The Organians are employing their great power to stop the Empire crossing UFP space.

You, as your capacity as Federation President, have been approached by the Empire seeking:

Access to Federation Technology such as transporters, replicators, holodecks, which are either not known in the Empire. As well as this the Empire also wants phasers, and technology that could be used to create mind-probes and borg nanoprobes.

In exchange, the Empire is prepared to export military technology to the Federation in the form of one hundred Dreadnought-class warships.

What is your response to the Imperial offer?

The offer as it stands is unacceptable for reasons Carazedwraith noted (though I must point out that in this scenario, exploration may have taken a back seat to defence, especially since a months-long war with the Empire will likely have left much of Federation infrastructure in ruins and Starfleet severely diminished.) However, because of the concern he noted about the Empire taking this offer to our enemies instead (they may not be unable to pass through our territory according to NecronLord, but would the Organians stop them from even sending an ambassador and discreetly handing, say, the Romulans some schematics for new technology?), and the Federation's preference for negotiation over war, flat-out refusing any negotiation might be unwise as well. I might counterpropose an alternative deal (I haven't worked out the details yet). While also quietly reaching out to other Star Wars factions like the Rebels in case the deal with the Empire fell through anyway.

[Batman]

The Empire is incapable of passing through Federation space, but what's stopping them from going around it? Even if we assume the '8000 ly' comment from FC to mean a cube 8000 ly a side (highly doubtful given how 'slow' Warp drive is in TNG) that's trivially easy for Imperial technology to simply go around.

[FaxModem1]

It depends on where the wormhole is positioned. If it's in Federation space, I think the Organians force the Imperials to be dead in the water as soon as they reach the Milky Way.

[bilateralrope]

Consider the size of the Empire. Consider the likely industrial output of the Federation. The only way the Empire is going to get as many holodecks/transporters as they want is if they learn how to build their own. So they will be after information, which can be traded over long-range transmissions.

Perhaps I would offer a contract to the Ferengi, they'll do anything if the price is right.

What's to stop the Ferengi selling the technology to other powers or using it themselves to engage in piracy ?

I'd keep the negotiations as a Federation led affair. Though I'm not sure if I'd involve the other ST factions or risk their anger when they find out about them. Which could happen before any deal is made.

[NecronLord]

It depends on where the wormhole is positioned. If it's in Federation space, I think the Organians force the Imperials to be dead in the water as soon as they reach the Milky Way.

This was my intention yes. Though if another power takes it off you by force they can keep it.

[The Romulan Republic]

So, having read over things in more detail, I see that the Empire is not allowed to go through my space without my permission at all and I cannot go through their space without permission at all, but there is nothing stopping someone else from doing either. This seems to mean that the Empire merely has to use an intermediary for the previously discussed issue of the Empire trading with my local enemies to come into play. And since the Empire appears to be being treated, as is standard, as far more powerful than the Federation in this scenario, I do need Star Wars tech. by one means or another. Since I cannot go through Imperial space without their consent, and they will likely have their end of the wormhole defended, my only real option for getting said tech. is to negotiate some sort of a deal with the bastards. Lovely.

So, here's my counteroffer-

1. We will secure our side of the wormhole against smugglers/pirates/etc., on the understanding that the Empire will likewise secure their side. We will, however, offer asylum to any refugees who make it through, and the Empire may do the same if there's anyone on our side who wishes to live their.

2. We will allow the Empire to establish an embassy, with a token garrison of troopers for its defence, in Federation space, in exchange for being allowed to do the same in Imperial space (this will open up their galaxy to us without violating the Orgainians' truce).

3. The Empire will be allowed to send small craft through Federation space, under Starfleet escort, to resupply said embassy and ferry VIPs. This, like all aspects of the deal, will be reciprocal.

4. We will exchange designs/schematics of medical technology as well as physical samples (humanitarian applications outweigh potential military ones and ours' seems to be quite good, and different in some respects from Imperial medical tech.) in exchange for proton torpedoes and Imperial techs. to teach us how to maintain and operate them.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Perhaps I would offer a contract to the Ferengi, they'll do anything if the price is right.

What's to stop the Ferengi selling the technology to other powers or using it themselves to engage in piracy ?

Offer them a really good price?

[The Romulan Republic]

I don't trust the Ferengi not to backstab me, or try to smuggle stuff to the Empire on their own.

Which is part of why their will be a task force permanently sitting on my side of the wormhole. I won't build a space station though, because if for some reason a hostile Star Wars navy comes through and I can't hold them off, a fleet can fall back effectively. A space station, obviously, cannot.

Which makes me wonder- what kind of ships would be best-suited to customs duty?

Here's another dirty trick the Empire could pull to get around the treaty- simply cede the system on their side of the wormhole to another faction like the Hutts (knowing they can take it back easily any time they want to) and let those guys launch attacks through it.

Unless the Organians are flexible and vigilant, there are all manner of ways Palpatine can fuck with the treaty.

[cmdrjones]

Droid technology or hyperdrive technology might be something the UFP would want instead. If this is after the Dominion War, Voyager should arrive in less than two years, with their notes and tech about slipstream technology. Voyager couldn't keep making it because of their lack of those crystals, which makes sense as Voyager was a single ship scrambling for its own survival, whereas we will have an entire corps of engineers to help develop slipstream, transwarp, etc. We can use that to reduce the speed gap, at least. But honestly, I'm going with the above poster, and going to quote Counselor Troi:

Why would we be involved with these people?

They are not good people, and I'd rather help the Rebel Alliance with fifth column support than honestly make their jobs harder, but that might be a prime directive violation. A polite, "No thank you, keep to your galaxy and we'll keep to ours." makes better sense, and when the Empire falls, we can deal with a much more benevolent New Republic or whatever.

Are you sure the Feds won't side with the empire? If THEY are the ones doing the repressing they are totally fine with it. Seven of 9 was denied her basic right to choose because janeway's paternalistic attitudes. Worf's a racist due to his "you must have klingon blood" comment to the supersoldier guy in season one, Picard is all high and mighty MOST of the time, but willing to "hugh" the borg when he needs to and when Worf gets paralyzed is willing to let him off himself because crusher is asking "too much" of the giant hairy nig---uh I mean Klingon. Also, They blithely destroy clones because "it would dimish me in ways I can't imagine" says Riker and THEN he gets all uppity with his OWN clone later on (Tom Riker), just for having the temerity to exist! Picard violates the prime directive to save Pestly Cruncher on perfect planet, they look down their noses at the Ferengi just because they AREN'T full on flaming communists, and Patronize the Bajorans for all that silly religion business... and on and on (these are off the top of my head).

I'm not so sure they will find COMPNOR and Human high culture all that disgusting....

[The Romulan Republic]

Here we go again with the Federation is a communist dictatorship shit.

The Federation may not practice the free market, but their are no gulags and no secret police keeping everyone in line. If it is communist, it is arguably employing a form of communism more benevolent and effective than any ever seen on Earth.

Also, while I don't deny for an instant that the Federation has made some serious mistakes, there is a long way between the things you mentioned and the kind of mass genocide and slavery Palpatine's Empire practiced. Are you seriously telling me you think someone like Picard would not take issue with that?

And the idea that Seven of Nine's freedom of choice was taken is highly dubious. I presume you're using the same reasoning about her not being allowed to be a Borg as the SFDebris reviews. Well, let's see: she was taken as a young child and has scarcely known any life outside of the Borg. The term "brainwashed" comes to mind.

In any case, if Seven did genuinely wish to return to the Borg, remaining loyal to them, the Federation would be utterly within its rights to hold her as a prisoner of war, given that the Borg collective are enemies of the Federation. And to sever her connection with the collective to keep her from communicating with enemy leadership.

And as for the idea of the Federation liking COMPNOR or Human High Culture (an organization and term which, to the best of my knowledge, are confined to the old EU and are thus non-canon now), the Federation has no secret police (unless you count Section 31, but they don't seem to engage in day to day oppression of Federation citizens) and is a multicultural society with aliens in positions of power.

[Crazedwraith]

Here we go again with the Federation is a communist dictatorship shit.

Don't feed the troll, man.

The Federation's principles don't always make sense to us, but they do have them. And the Empire doesn't line up to them. Lack of equality among species for a start and the ESB era most likely a lack of democratic representation. And slavery if that's still canon.