Everybody spies and nobody is surprised

[Ace Pace]

Including Germany

Germany Spied on Friends and Vatican
Efforts to spy on friends and allies by Germany's foreign intelligence agency, the BND,
were more extensive than previously reported. SPIEGEL has learned the agency monitored
European and American government ministries and the Vatican.
Three weeks ago, news emerged that Germany's foreign intelligence service, the
Bundesnachrichtendienst (BND), had systematically spied on friends and allies around the world. In
many of those instances, the BND had been doing so of its own accord and not at the request of the
NSA. The BND came under heavy criticism earlier this year after news emerged that it had assisted the
NSA in spying on European institutions, companies and even Germans using dubious selector data.
SPIEGEL has since learned from sources that the spying went further than previously reported. Since
October's revelations, it has emerged that the BND spied on the United States Department of the
Interior and the interior ministries of EU member states including Poland, Austria, Denmark and
Croatia. The search terms used by the BND in its espionage also included communications lines
belonging to US diplomatic outposts in Brussels and the United Nations in New York. The list even
included the US State Department's hotline for travel warnings.
The German intelligence service's interest wasn't restricted to state institutions either: It also spied on
non­governmental organizations like Care International, Oxfam and the International Committee of the
Red Cross in Geneva. In Germany, the BND's own selector lists included numerous foreign embassies
and consulates. The e­mail addresses, telephone numbers and fax numbers of the diplomatic
representations of the United States, France, Great Britain, Sweden, Portugal, Greece, Spain, Italy,
Austria, Switzerland and even the Vatican were all monitored in this way. Diplomatic facilities are not
covered under Article 10 of Germany's constitution, the Basic Law, which protects German
telecommunications participants from such surveillance.
The initial revelations came after Chancellor Angela Merkel's Chancellery, which is in charge of
overseeing Germany's intelligence agencies, informed the Bundestag's Parliamentary Control Panel,
which is responsible for applying checks and balances to intelligence efforts, in mid­October that the
BND had been surveilling the institutions of numerous European countries and other partners for many
years.
In October 2013, Chancellor Angela Merkel condemned spying on her mobile phone by saying, "Spying
among friends? That's just not done." Apparently these words didn't apply to the BND.

I'm honestly not sure what to comment, this seems like such a non story to me.

[Gaidin]

Reality: The annoying time between sleep and internet. You found a part of it.

[Channel72]

As an American, I'm shocked and appalled that Germany would do something so heinous.

I think every government should just include a "Privacy Policy" in their national constitution and get it over with. They can just copy/paste the ones used by Facebook or Apple to save time.

[K. A. Pital]

Somehow I do not think this is good and that the BND trying to play "CIA's younger brother" is awful. In short, I am appalled.

This is not a "non-story". No violation of privacy is. The fact that NGOs are routinely targeted may be understandable in our modern world, but not excusable.

[Gaidin]

I think every government should just include a "Privacy Policy" in their national constitution and get it over with. They can just copy/paste the ones used by Facebook or Apple to save time.

You realize that spy agencies break laws by their very nature right? Something like that only works if the agency is defined as law enforcement first and tries to make a crazy argument to the courts and succeeds(see FBI and that encrypted email company they tried to get access to via warrant).

[LaCroix]

I think the most important thing here is that the Chancellery ousted the spying to the Control Panel. This was not some whistle blowing or news reveal, it was the Administration reporting to the control organ. As they should.

This is analogus to the POTUS asking Congress if the NSA is overstepping their bounds and should be reigned in.

[Thanas]

The BND should be gutted and rebuilt, quite clearly the organizational rot is too deep.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Did they hire any of the STASI people by any chance?

[Thanas]

Did they hire any of the STASI people by any chance?

Nope. Though the spirit of Abwehr is still strong in it apparently.

[Gaidin]

I think the most important thing here is that the Chancellery ousted the spying to the Control Panel. This was not some whistle blowing or news reveal, it was the Administration reporting to the control organ. As they should.

This is analogus to the POTUS asking Congress if the NSA is overstepping their bounds and should be reigned in.

Ironically the BND spying on foreign agencies...it would be hard to find overstepping unless there was actual change in policy for all of Merkel's political bitching. Unlike, say, NSA's network watchdogging in such a fashion they get everything and the kitchen sink(including, you know, American data).

[LaCroix]

Ironically the BND spying on foreign agencies...it would be hard to find overstepping unless there was actual change in policy for all of Merkel's political bitching. Unlike, say, NSA's network watchdogging in such a fashion they get everything and the kitchen sink(including, you know, American data).

I don't believe they have a blanket aproval to spy on anyone. Spying on Russia, China, etc would be ok, but spying on allies is not really in their work description. So they might have overstepped, and thus were reported.

[Gaidin]

I don't believe they have a blanket aproval to spy on anyone. Spying on Russia, China, etc would be ok, but spying on allies is not really in their work description. So they might have overstepped, and thus were reported.

Well, not anyone. But from what little I can tell they are the foreign intelligence agency. And what I'm seeing in that article is them spying on agencies of foreign governments. Now Merkel did political bitching with her phone. The question I'm asking is did she actually change policy? Because the concept of 'friends today, possible enemies tomorrow' isn't a new concept to history.

[Esquire]

Of course she didn't. Making a stink about something everyone everywhere has done forever to score political points is also not a new concept to history.

[Crown]

The BND should be gutted and rebuilt, quite clearly the organizational rot is too deep.

An admirable notion, but in the end futile. These organisations by their very nature are systemic corrupting organisms. Anything that "needs" to operate in secrecy in order to be "effective" will eventually, gradually but certainly rot.