How strong is the armor on a Xeelee nightfighter?

[Archinist]

I am curious. Is it really as strong as the commoners say, that flying through a black hole will only polish it's paintwork, or is it some cheap rubbish that can be penetrated by a modern tank shell?

[Tribble]

I am not that familiar with Xeelee nightfighters. While normally I'd simply do a Google Search and find out about them in seconds, in this case I'm requesting that you present some information about their capabilities. What are Xeelee fighters capable of? What are you comparing them to? Who are these commoners that you speak of?

[Lord Revan]

I'd love to know who you meant by "commoners" as well as that's a rather loaded term to use.

[Khaat]

Considering how ignorant Archinist's post tend to be, I would not be surprised if it is him having misheard the phrase "commonly said" and failing as a parrot and writing "commoners say".

I'm not familiar with the source material, however. It's possible "commoners" are a segment of the fictional universe's population.

Otherwise

The Xeelee were masters of time and space. They crafted their starships, known as Nightfighters, out of a strange form of matter that seems to violate Pauli's Exclusion Principle (which states that no two electrons of the same atom can be in the same state at the same time). The material is incredibly sharp, hard, and transparent; due to its unique spacetime construction, it has strange gravitational effects.

That's pretty open-ended. My official answer to the question is "Indeterminate."

[edits: tags and stuff]

[Tribble]

Considering how ignorant Archinist's post tend to be, I would not be surprised if it is him having misheard the phrase "commonly said" and failing as a parrot and writing "commoners say".

I'm not familiar with the source material, however. It's possible "commoners" are a segment of the fictional universe's population.

Otherwise

The Xeelee were masters of time and space. They crafted their starships, known as Nightfighters, out of a strange form of matter that seems to violate Pauli's Exclusion Principle (which states that no two electrons of the same atom can be in the same state at the same time). The material is incredibly sharp, hard, and transparent; due to its unique spacetime construction, it has strange gravitational effects.

That's pretty open-ended. My official answer to the question is "Indeterminate."

[edits: tags and stuff]

Khaat, I was trying to get Archinist to do his own actual research and present us with his findings rather than have us do it for him. As I stated earlier I could probably answer this question within a matter of seconds via Google but I want to see him do it

[Ziggy Stardust]

Fairly certain he is just openly trolling and doesn't actually want to discuss this.

Given his recent comments in a Testing thread, it seems that he has come to the conclusion that this entire forum is made up of heartless kill-joys that have no other motivation than to nerf the capabilities of fictional entities until they can be easily taken down by a single modern soldier or what-have-you. He doesn't view us as posting evidence, he views us as grumpy cynics with no imagination trying to oppress him.

EDIT:

For the sake of posterity, here are the quotes in Testing I was referring to:

Also, this was not originally posted here, it was moved here by someone else for some reason. I have no idea why, since this was supposed to be a serious debate. Yes, the strengths are a bit lopsided, but usually this forum interprets battle strengths as 50x weaker then they really are (fully armoured space marines dying to 7.62mm bullets), so the God-Emperors should really only be about as powerful as 2-3 M1A2s and the Infinities about as powerful as a Covenant corvette.

So since this forum uses "science" in their debates, which means ignoring a large amount of a character's supernatural strength (i.e. The Living Tribunal from the comic is reduced from eating multiverses and then re-creating them to mission-killing WW2 tanks with a 60% success rate), then why was battle put into Testing?

[Q99]

It's made of flaws in spacetime. It is thus *extremely* tough- in the form of, when exposed to energy, Xeelee construction material converse the energy into more Xeelee stuff, so Supernovae, for example, not only don't do damage but leave one big honking Nightfighter when you're done.

A black hole, I'm fairly sure would do the job because their own weapons are iirc somewhat gravity based, plus human copies of the same can kill them.

So, brute force is useless, some other forms of attack, stuff that can mess with the fabric of space like sufficiently strong gravity weapons, can do the job.

[Simon_Jester]

Yeah. I gave up on him at some point in the past few weeks and decided to take on more fun activities, too.

And I'm usually the last to give up on anyone.

[Lord Revan]

the Xeelee are one the strongest scifi creatures out there, from I've read (few minutes of googling I'll admit) while it would unknown if they could actually survive a blackhole, power level wise they're certainly on that level. on the "practically divine from a standpoint of a modern human" level along with some of the other highend literary scifi works (like the Culture IIRC), since they're on the thrown galaxies at each other as basic weapons level.

Edit:wasn't there a thread before anarchist joined where it was concluded that SM power-armor is more or less immune to modern small arms unless they hit into the few weak spots like the eyepieces or joints?

[Imperial Overlord]

Black holes aren't a great choice of weapons to use against the Xeelee. The Xeelee have used the super massive black hole at the center of the galaxy as a base.

[Archinist]

Fairly certain he is just openly trolling and doesn't actually want to discuss this.

Given his recent comments in a Testing thread, it seems that he has come to the conclusion that this entire forum is made up of heartless kill-joys that have no other motivation than to nerf the capabilities of fictional entities until they can be easily taken down by a single modern soldier or what-have-you. He doesn't view us as posting evidence, he views us as grumpy cynics with no imagination trying to oppress him.

EDIT:

For the sake of posterity, here are the quotes in Testing I was referring to:

Also, this was not originally posted here, it was moved here by someone else for some reason. I have no idea why, since this was supposed to be a serious debate. Yes, the strengths are a bit lopsided, but usually this forum interprets battle strengths as 50x weaker then they really are (fully armoured space marines dying to 7.62mm bullets), so the God-Emperors should really only be about as powerful as 2-3 M1A2s and the Infinities about as powerful as a Covenant corvette.

How is that trolling? I am curious on what this forum thinks of higher-level fictional universes such as the Xeelee, exotic 40k, SupCom, etc and what their power levels are compared to modern-day military.

An example would be that dreadnought VS M1 Abrams thread, where most people think that the Abrams would destroy the dreadnought with moderate difficulty and that the lascannons probably couldn't destroy the M1 very quickly.

I am quite sure if I asked that same question on another site, such as gamefaqs, CV or SB, that most people would say that the dreadnought without any weapons at all could simply just "eat" the M1 alive without even thinking about it, considering that many people think that a single space marine with a bolter could tear the M1 in half with just his bare hands.

So since this forum uses "science" in their debates, which means ignoring a large amount of a character's supernatural strength (i.e. The Living Tribunal from the comic is reduced from eating multiverses and then re-creating them to mission-killing WW2 tanks with a 60% success rate), then why was battle put into Testing?

[/quote]

Considering how ignorant Archinist's post tend to be, I would not be surprised if it is him having misheard the phrase "commonly said" and failing as a parrot and writing "commoners say".

I'm not familiar with the source material, however. It's possible "commoners" are a segment of the fictional universe's population.

No, it was just a joke. I did google it before, but I wanted to see what the people here thought about it, rather than just parroting what other people said.

[Bernkastel]

Well, you always try to make the debate go the way you want, often by contrived and incredibly stupid ways. That's not the behavior of someone actually interested in a actual discussion of the scenarios they are putting forward.

Let me give you an example. Let's say I create a thread asking if Stephen Hawking could fight a space marine. The obvious answer is no. Upon getting that answer and having my efforts to justify it as a discussable scenario beaten, I declare that Stephen Hawking's wheelchair can turn into power armour in this scenario. Now that makes it clear that the creator of the topic isn't interested in actually discussing their topic and wants a certain type of response from others. They want the fight they envision in their head, not an actual discussion, and will effectively rewrite the scenario to protect a fundamentally flawed idea. Others are naturally going to be annoyed. But that is what you do.

Here's one more thing. Using quotation mark around science like you did just screams "I think science is just their excuse for not being fun".

[Tribble]

Archinist, I am waiting for your response to my earlier questions: what is a Xeelee fighter capable of? What are you trying to compare them to?

Why don't you use Google to do a little research find the best canon info you can, and tell us what you discovered? For bonus points post a link to the sites you used so that we an take a look at it.

[Q99]

How is that trolling? I am curious on what this forum thinks of higher-level fictional universes such as the Xeelee, exotic 40k, SupCom, etc and what their power levels are compared to modern-day military.

It doesn't compare to a modern-day military, at all, as a cursory glance should tell you. There's no reason to include them in discussion, especially if you do think they're a higher level power.

Nightfighters are armed with guns called Starbreakers. They're called this because they break stars.

As for their defenses, well, I made a post on what their material can withstand, i.e. at least supernova level force, raw power just isn't working.

I've answered your questions on their armor and weapons.

So, I presume that satisfies your questions and arguments, yes?

[Ziggy Stardust]

How is that trolling? I am curious on what this forum thinks of higher-level fictional universes such as the Xeelee, exotic 40k, SupCom, etc and what their power levels are compared to modern-day military.

Did you actually understand my post? Because asking about the Xeelee was NOT the part of your post that I said was probably trolling.

If you really are interesting in having an honest discussion about the capabilities of fictional universities, you certainly aren't acting like it. You categorically ignore 90% of the posts in the thread relating to your topic (including several, already, in this thread). The rare times you do respond, it isn't to address any of the arguments about the scenario, but to arbitrarily redefine the initial rules of the scenario.

If you want to discuss the capabilities of the Xeelee, then why didn't you say a single word in your OP about what the powers of the Xeelee are, the type of feats that they perform in whatever universe Xeelee come from, or even what you are trying to judge their powers against? Do you want to talk about a tank fighting a Xeelee fighter? You don't say ANYTHING in your OP that actually helps anyone discuss the scenario (you don't even outline a scenario at all!). Instead, you just make a pithy, sarcastic comment (similar to the ones you made in Testing) that seem to indicate that you don't respect the opinions of anybody here.

An example would be that dreadnought VS M1 Abrams thread, where most people think that the Abrams would destroy the dreadnought with moderate difficulty and that the lascannons probably couldn't destroy the M1 very quickly.

I am quite sure if I asked that same question on another site, such as gamefaqs, CV or SB, that most people would say that the dreadnought without any weapons at all could simply just "eat" the M1 alive without even thinking about it, considering that many people think that a single space marine with a bolter could tear the M1 in half with just his bare hands.

SO WHY AREN'T YOU TALKING ABOUT THAT? If you want to talk about that scenario, post in that thread. If you want to talk about another scenario, post that scenario and clearly explain what it is. You've done neither in this thread. You don't even describe a scenario for anyone to talk about, you just make a sarcastic comment. How do you expect people to respond to that?

No, it was just a joke.

It clearly isn't a joke. Because you've brought it up earnestly multiple times. You keep saying that on "other sites" (like spacebattles or gamefaqs) people would respond to the scenario differently than they do here, as if everyone on this board is being unreasonable. Why else would you bring that up except as some sort of "appeal to popularity", by expecting us to act the way you perceive everybody else does? You refer to "science" sarcastically and say that people here just "ignore" (your words) the abilities of these various fictional forces.

If you have a problem with a specific argument (for example, the ones in the dreadnought vs tank thread you referred to earlier), then why don't you address that argument? Why don't you respond to it and say, "Well, I think your wrong, because in source X (like a 40k book) we see a dreadnought destroying Y or surviving Z, therefore we should expect it to stand up to the tank" or something similar? You can't just wave your hands and say that the dreadnought can survive anything or destroy anything just because it's from the future, without actually looking at what the various 40K sources actually show it being capable of surviving or destroying.

For example, I could say, "Alf could easily rip an Abrams tank in half with his bare hands, because he's an alien from an advanced species and has powers", which would be ridiculous because we never once see Alf perform any similar feat in that show, so there's no reason to assume he IS capable of that feat. This same logic applies no matter what the comparison is. You look at what each side's performance history and try to imagine what would happen if they met. If you disagree with someone else's logic, and think they are underrating the abilities of a Space Marine or whatever, then EXPLAIN WHY.

If you want to have an honest discussion, ACT LIKE IT. You have never conducted yourself in a way that makes it seem like you do want to have an honest discussion. You can't have a discussion when you ignore 90% of the people talking, as you usually do. I fully expect you to ignore this post, as well, since you have run away from multiple threads without responding to anything in them, claiming you "lost interest".

[Honorius]

Black holes aren't a great choice of weapons to use against the Xeelee. The Xeelee have used the super massive black hole at the center of the galaxy as a base.

I heard they used blackholes as supercomputers, but this, wow...

I take it the Xeelee are sufficiently advanced enough they are for all practical purposes, gods and no one can truly challenge them?

[Imperial Overlord]

Black holes aren't a great choice of weapons to use against the Xeelee. The Xeelee have used the super massive black hole at the center of the galaxy as a base.

I heard they used blackholes as supercomputers, but this, wow...

I take it the Xeelee are sufficiently advanced enough they are for all practical purposes, gods and no one can truly challenge them?

We wish. Humanity's wars against the Xeelee are pretty futile, but the Xeelee have their hands full dealing with an enemy made of dark matter, the photino birds. The photino birds are remodeling the universe into something more comfy by accelerating the heat death. We're ants beneath the feet of titans.

[Q99]

And the Photino Birds will win- the Xeelee are focused on building an escape hatch to the universe, because they cannot stop the Photino Birds.

[Tribble]

*reads wiki on Xeelee*

Apparently black holes do work on the Xeelee to a degree - firing black holes at the black hole in the center of the Milky Way was threatening enough that the Xeelee decided to leave the Milky Way galaxy rather than continue to fight. Of course, from the Xeelee's perspective this was little more than a minor irritant as they could have crushed humanity with a bit more effort if they really wanted to.

The Xeelee are also capable of time travel so I'd definitely put the Xeelee in the upper-tier, though I'm not entirely sure where in that tier. A fight between them and the Time Lords would be interesting...

[Tribble]

We seem to have answered Archinist's question, and once again he has apparently decided to stop responding and start a new thread.

[Lord Revan]

I thought time travel was one of the few things the Xeelee didn't have and that's what made the Photino Birds so dangerous as they most certainly had timetravel.

We seem to have answered Archinist's question, and once again he has apparently decided to stop responding and start a new thread.

Of course as we answered the question honestly rather in the way he wanted us to anwser.

[Imperial Overlord]

The Xeelee have time travel. They went back in time and optimized the development of their species and civilization to better fight the photino birds. It turned out to be not enough.

[Tribble]

Of course as we answered the question honestly rather in the way he wanted us to anwser.

This is why I am now requesting a ruling from a Moderator / Governor on whether or not Archinist is spamming this forum. What's the point of him starting a thread and refusing to meaningfully participate in it afterwards, if not to spam? Especially when he immediately starts a new thread the moment he thinks the old thread is "boring" aka we don't follow along with his idiocy?

*Edit*

It should be noted now that after posting my request on Archinist's latest thread, he is now claiming that he was preparing to respond on this thread with a long post, he just hasn't finished said post yet. Whether or not this is true, IMO he should have said so on this thread before we started calling him out on it and before he created a new thread, so that we would know he hadn't abandoned this one. I shouldn't have to make a request to a moderator just to get someone to respond, its simple etiquette.

[Archinist]

Archinist, I am waiting for your response to my earlier questions: what is a Xeelee fighter capable of? What are you trying to compare them to?

Why don't you use Google to do a little research find the best canon info you can, and tell us what you discovered? For bonus points post a link to the sites you used so that we an take a look at it.

I don't know what it's capable of, that's why i'm asking in the first place. However, according to older places on SB, the fighter is at least capable of destroying planets, and other people say the Xeelee have assault rifles capable of destroying stars. However, those calcs might not use "science" as this board claims to, and might be incorrect in the eyes of most people here.

For example, this subreddit here (https://www.reddit.com/r/whowouldwin/co ... rines_40k/) has most people think that one space marine will be able to easily kill 5 abrams tanks, and it will require at least 15 tanks to kill it, and even then the losses will be significant and will not ensure a victory.

They also say that just "...a lot" of M1s are required to take down a single predator destruction 40K tanks. Since 15 M1s are required for any chance of a victory against a single space marine, and the predator destruction is obviously much more powerful than the lone SM, this would suggest that over 50 M1 tanks would be required to come close to destroying that single predator destructor.

However, on this board, apparently things work differently, and instead a single M1 is capable of taking down one dreadnought single-handedly, albeit with moderate damage.

Here is a quote supposedly from a book of 40K. I don't know if that is true, I only found it on the internet.

There was a flash over his head, and a lascannon shot punched into a Bane Wolf’s gas reservoir. The tank exploded, spreading its angry death for dozens of metres around it. This time, it was the men of the Mortisian Guard whose screams were awful and short, and whose skin was puddling in the road. Bisset’s jaw dropped and he threw himself flat. The Leman Russ’s turret rotated in his direction, and the heavy bolter sponson chugged rounds. The turret hadn’t moved half its arc before a second lascannon beam blasted it from the chassis.

Armoured beings stormed past him. They were terrible, golden angels, and they fell upon the Guard with bolter and chainsword. They savaged the units that had escaped the release of the gas and tore the tanks apart. They were monsters who bore the garb of beauty. They were giants in the service of war turned into art. There were only five of them. There were a hundred times as many Guardsmen, and that was far too few. The battle was even more one-sided than the attack on the rebels had been. Within seconds, hulls had been ripped open, treads yanked from wheels and used as whips, and men scythed into shrieking meat. The Chaos Space Marines stood proudly in the carnage, gods well pleased by their allotment of blood. The surviving rebels emerged from their hiding places. They began to cheer, and the cry was taken up by more and more people pouring into the streets.
- Death of Antagonis

Now, in this quote it shows that a total of FIVE space marines (although they are actually "fake" marines) somehow managed to utterly ANNIHILATE, not destroy, annihilate a guardsmen unit which was supported by armoured vehicles, such as tanks. Let's say the leman russ is as powerful as a M2 Bradley. Now that means that a mere 5 space marines could utterly annihilate a unit of 500 U.S. Marines with HMMWVs and M2 Bradleys.

So according to that quote, a space marine might not have such a bad time against an abrams after all, since that quote also states that the space marines "tore the tanks apart", and since most of the guns of 40K do not tear or rip, except for eldar/necron weapons, the space marines must have torn the tanks apart with either their bare fists or melee weapons.

Now, I only wanted to hear the thoughts of the pople of this boardforum to say, and what they had to say about the armour strengths.

Umm.

So, not really a "long" post, just more that I didn't have much time to post it, and since posting on here is usually quite stressful, any free time is usually devoted elsewhere.

Now, according to a gamefaqs debating page (http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/605245-w ... 011?page=0) which pits the leman russ against the predator and the abrams, apparently the 40K tanks would curbstomp the abrams in almost every single battle, as they are futuristic tanks and also look cooler.

Here is another 40K quote from the internet. Again I don't read any real 40K so it might be dubious accuracy.

With no home world, the Dragons had no infrastructure to produce and properly maintain vehicles. Those they had were for ultimate measures. But what did they need with vehicles when each Space Marine was a main battle tank with legs? Vritras’s spearhead began its destruction of the enemy with fire from the rear. The Devastators of Squad Lanx unleashed their heavy bolters. Rounds with the destructive punch of artillery shells tore the cultists apart.

So now, according to this quote, the heavy bolters which are still usually below lascannons, are on-par with artillery shells. This is a massive boost in firepower from what most people in this forum have suggested the heavy bolters to be, which is around the light RPG range, barely sufficient to penetrate the side armour of an Abrams tank.

Now, most people on here, I think, would generally all agree that even a WWI artillery shell would utterly destroy an M1 Abrams, or at least disable one and kill the crew, and here we have artillery shells being fired out of 40K's equivalent to HMG turret mounts, which are far less powerful still than lascannons, which according to some people on that Dreadnought VS M1-A thread, would "take a long time" to kill the Abrams, when infact it seems they would actually oneshot the Abrams.

[Khaat]

Archinist, it is important for you to learn and remember:
1) Authors can and do use prose to make the story flow ("each Space Marine was a main battle tank with legs" is prose, not a factual or scientific evaluation, "Rounds with the destructive punch of artillery shells....", also prose, not a statistical evaluation). The iconic "Angels of Death" nick-name for Space Marines - not really angels, but head and shoulders above every other contemporary fighting troop in the Imperium of Man. A real life comparison: US Marines are nick-named "Devil Dogs" - not really devils, not really dogs!) Learning to tell the difference between prose and narrative is an incredibly useful skill, I strongly recommend you develop it.

2) Despite the futuristic setting and sci-fi tropes thrown around, 40K has some "table-top friendly" ideas on war machines (exposed fuel tanks on their armored vehicles may look "kewl" (and distinctive), but is the last thing you would really do with combat-vehicle design, for obvious reasons [in case it isn't obvious: enemies can shoot them and make them go "boom", and you don't want that]. Modern armed forces do not make giant armies of disposable forces to throw at a relentless tide of demon-spawn and xenos bent on annihilating humanity. Modern armies make small numbers of efficient, survivable, mission-oriented units which make use of combined arms tactics, even if "their barrels look puny in table-top scale models!" Other sci-fi can and does have similar issues, to a greater or lesser extent.

Real stuff is easier to quantify (since it is, well, real), fictional stuff is harder to quantify, since we have to filter out prose, and sources may be contradictory or overly-diverse (how many lasgun patterns are there?) for a definitive evaluation.

This board's culture does its best to strip-off all the fan-wank(/prose) other boards use slather-on like extra lubricant in their comparisons genital self-abusing.

At least on this board, you will see, "we have no idea how reactive the explosive in a bolter round really is, even though the 'tech manual' fluff says it constitutes such-and-such volume of the round. If it does indeed blow up a human torso as described [source, quote], it needs to be at least this reactive [insert value, with supporting calculations on the minimum energy needed to do the job on volume of real-life meat (or ballistic gel as a substitute - since we can calculate this)]."

Archinist, I am waiting for your response to my earlier questions: what is a Xeelee fighter capable of? What are you trying to compare them to?

Why don't you use Google to do a little research find the best canon info you can, and tell us what you discovered? For bonus points post a link to the sites you used so that we an take a look at it.

I don't know what it's capable of, that's why i'm asking in the first place. However, according to older places on SB, the fighter is at least capable of destroying planets, and other people say the Xeelee have assault rifles capable of destroying stars. However, those calcs might not use "science" as this board claims to, and might be incorrect in the eyes of most people here.

How about this, from the List of Notices You Should Have Read Before Posting: "vs" threads involving obscure series

tl;dr - it's up to you to provide proof (source material) or values (if you want to discuss values, i.e., "calcs") of a thing, especially if it's an uncommon source not covered in the forums already.

Perhaps most importantly: we aren't here because we want to take part in other forums' discussions.