Interesting thoughts on the new movies

[Darth Yan]

I have mixed feelings on the trilogy but this particular idea
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vzPAmm6L1g is a new one (basically arguing that the movies are actually rather sexist and racist). Warning it's a long ass video
https://www.reddit.com/r/saltierthancra ... ogies_are/

The later is from a reddit forum. It's interesting in that it IS critical of the new movies but tries to avoid being the racist sexist circle jerks a lot of critiques are (and they do at least avoid that for the most part

[ray245]

The later is from a reddit forum. It's interesting in that it IS critical of the new movies but tries to avoid being the racist sexist circle jerks a lot of critiques are (and they do at least avoid that for the most part

On the 2nd opinion, I agree with this view. Scott Mendelson, a critic on Forbes of all paper, criticised the fanbase as the generation who ROS is pandering to as being the generation that elected Trump.

It’s not just that Rise of Skywalker undoes Last Jedi’s “it’s not your franchise anymore” metaphors—aimed at a generation that grew up loving Star Wars and then allowed two Palpatine-ish leaders (George W. Bush and Trump) to come into power—for generic “don’t worry, Star Wars is still the best!” fan bait.

[NecronLord]

The reddit post is spot on for a lot of the things that grinds my gears about the sequel trilogy. I know it's not everyone's thing but the weakness of the New Republic still grates on me so very badly.

Even if Stormtroopers sell toys - and let's be honest that's the emphasis for how they make the First Order look as cool as possible - did the Clones sell less toys? Look how cool Cara Dune is in The Mandalorian as a Rebel Drop Trooper, give her some more gear, sell toys. Knock off the Grand Army of the Republic, hell, re-use the name and have it be volunteers instead of clones on the SWTOR route. The audience can handle more than one type of trooper, and they can handle rooting for the guys in plastoid armour.

There's no reason for the basic plot outline of stopping a resurgent Empire and their superweapon to require the New Republic to be blind surrendermonkeys that have no fight in them and that no one will fight for, other than a belief that the fascists are the only ones allowed to be effective.

[ray245]

It essentially legitimise fascists, because fascists are shown to be people who can magically pull ships and rebuild a powerful empire in secret, and any victory good guys won is a mere respite in the short term. A big peace-loving NR which demilitarise itself can be essentially seen by the far-right as a stand-in for the "weak on defence peace-loving hippies" and any fascist wannabe can take them down easily.

[Gandalf]

The reddit post misses an opportunity to put the authoritarianism of Star Wars into a wider context.

The Old Republic was similarly none too militaristic until someone went and ordered a super obedient army of slaves in cool toys without their knowledge. In the PT, democracy is nice but wildly impractical it seems. Also, instead of the tragic heroism of the clones, where we as an audience know that it's only a matter of time before they kill our heroic Jedi. At the end of AOTC, hints of the Imperial March play as we see them line up like something out of Riefenstahl. It's wonderful.

Then Clone Wars comes along and does biochips, among other things. So while they do horrible things, they've little accountability. It's somewhat reflective of America's divides over issues like Vietnam and the War on Terror, which makes sense. I wonder how many Imperial citizens didn't support Palpatine, but "supported the troops?"

[NecronLord]

I think I've said it before but my favourite template for TLJ would have been to literally make Alexander Nevsky in space. The real history isn't too important but in the classic (Soviet Propaganda for those who care) movie the plot is essentially that the people of the Republic of Novgorod call the film's hero out of retirement when the Teutonic Order massacre the population of the city of Pskov, and he has to rally the people of Novgorod to stand the crusader knights.

It's also a major influence on The Empire Strikes Back, with the main battle from the end of the movie the admitted inspiration for the Empire Strikes Back, though of course in that movie the good guys win.

That's literally all that Episode VIII needed to be. With Luke in the role of Nevsky in part, and passing that mantle on to Rey.

But most relevantly there's a scene in the movie where various people are shouting out in the assembly that their guild will produce a thousand lances, five hundred shields or so on for the Republic to avenge Pskov. That is what I want, not 'No one is coming to our rescue from our outer rim allies, no one will dare stand against the First Order.'

Just strike out Pskov and write in Hosnian change lances for fighter squadrons and shields for destroyers and guilds for sectors and the whole thing works as a rebuttal to the lackadaisical irrelevance of the New Republic in Ep. 7.

Between VII showing the New Republic as fools completely unprepared for battle, which I think is just poor worldbuilding, and VIII's deliberate pedaling of the 'Don't Join' message that resistance against fascism is futile the sequels have been thoroughly depressing thus far. I hope IX will at least make the Resistance into a real movement.

[Darth Yan]

The reddit post misses an opportunity to put the authoritarianism of Star Wars into a wider context.

The Old Republic was similarly none too militaristic until someone went and ordered a super obedient army of slaves in cool toys without their knowledge. In the PT, democracy is nice but wildly impractical it seems. Also, instead of the tragic heroism of the clones, where we as an audience know that it's only a matter of time before they kill our heroic Jedi. At the end of AOTC, hints of the Imperial March play as we see them line up like something out of Riefenstahl. It's wonderful.

Then Clone Wars comes along and does biochips, among other things. So while they do horrible things, they've little accountability. It's somewhat reflective of America's divides over issues like Vietnam and the War on Terror, which makes sense. I wonder how many Imperial citizens didn't support Palpatine, but "supported the troops?"

The bio chips worked. In an army of god knows how many clones you’d need them not to give it away and it becomes harder to maintain a conspiracy with that many.

[tezunegari]

The reddit post misses an opportunity to put the authoritarianism of Star Wars into a wider context.

The Old Republic was similarly none too militaristic until someone went and ordered a super obedient army of slaves in cool toys without their knowledge. In the PT, democracy is nice but wildly impractical it seems. Also, instead of the tragic heroism of the clones, where we as an audience know that it's only a matter of time before they kill our heroic Jedi. At the end of AOTC, hints of the Imperial March play as we see them line up like something out of Riefenstahl. It's wonderful.

Then Clone Wars comes along and does biochips, among other things. So while they do horrible things, they've little accountability. It's somewhat reflective of America's divides over issues like Vietnam and the War on Terror, which makes sense. I wonder how many Imperial citizens didn't support Palpatine, but "supported the troops?"

The bio chips worked. In an army of god knows how many clones you’d need them not to give it away and it becomes harder to maintain a conspiracy with that many.

The biochips undermine the fall of the Jedi at the hands of the Clones.
Without them, the clones followed established procedures for the case of Jedi Generals betraying the Republic - which the Jedi can and should be aware of anyway without implying the Clones are a tool for betrayal.

That makes the conspiracy so nefarious: Palpatine used legally created procedures that the Jedi did not realize were created against them or they did not understand that the wording of the contingency plans mattered.
IIRC Order 66 had to come from on a specific channel from a specific terminal by the Chancellor himself.
On the other hand Order 65, the plan handling the Chancellor committing treason needed to go through the Senate and achieve a majority there.

The only thing the biochips are doing is making an elegant conspiracy convoluted and increasing the number of conspirators who know at least part of the plan to attack the Jedi (the reactions of the Kaminoans in Clone Wars was telling that they knew the chips were part of some plan).

[SpottedKitty]

At the end of AOTC, hints of the Imperial March play as we see them line up like something out of Riefenstahl.

I just re-watched that scene. I've never seen the entire Triumph des Willens, only clips in historical documentaries, so I never realised before; but you're absolutely right. Having Darth Wrinkly and friends looking benevolently down on the scene from his balcony only adds to the parallel. Time for another re-watch of the whole series, see what else I might have missed.

[Gandalf]

The bio chips worked. In an army of god knows how many clones you’d need them not to give it away and it becomes harder to maintain a conspiracy with that many.

Why does it need to be a conspiracy? All it needs is for Order 66 to be "kill commanding officer at once, only person of x rank or above may issue."

Also, have you any thoughts on the rest of my biochips point?

[FaxModem1]

Order 66 makes sense in that camaraderie among soldiers is a thing, and the Clone troopers, even in the films, were friends with the Jedi and the flipping of a switch to kill your brother in arms is something that would be very odd to explain.

Especially if they view young padawans as a sort of surrogate young sibling, that kind of killing would be hard to believe for audiences. It makes more sense that the clones who a moment ago were giving the 'little one' high fives are now shooting to kill him. It makes a greater tragedy in that the beings literally bred for war by Palpatine were treated as friends, and more importantly, people by the Jedi, even getting them what rights they had during the war, and Palpatine, with the flip of a switch, utterly destroyed that.

Which is better than the Clones just seeming to count down the days until they could murder the filthy Jedi because boss man told them to on what seems like a lark.

[Gandalf]

Order 66 makes sense in that camaraderie among soldiers is a thing, and the Clone troopers, even in the films, were friends with the Jedi and the flipping of a switch to kill your brother in arms is something that would be very odd to explain.

Soldiers can do terrible things when following orders.

Also, to quote Lama Su:

You'll find they are totally obedient, taking any order without question. We modified their genetic structure to make them less independent than the original host.

[Knife]

Order 66 makes sense in that camaraderie among soldiers is a thing, and the Clone troopers, even in the films, were friends with the Jedi and the flipping of a switch to kill your brother in arms is something that would be very odd to explain.

Soldiers can do terrible things when following orders.

Usually after trauma and after dehumanizing their enemies. Not their team mates.

[Lord Revan]

Order 66 makes sense in that camaraderie among soldiers is a thing, and the Clone troopers, even in the films, were friends with the Jedi and the flipping of a switch to kill your brother in arms is something that would be very odd to explain.

Soldiers can do terrible things when following orders.

Usually after trauma and after dehumanizing their enemies. Not their team mates.

Indeed it takes insane amounts of brainwashing just to have a soldiers turn on their team mates because someone ordered them to, it would take even more for said soldiers to turn on their friends.

Even before the "bio-chip" arc we saw that clones could question their orders if they thought those orders were stupid or insane enough, the Umbara arc was pretty all about the clones questioning their orders because they thought them to be so bad as to be harmful to the Republic war effort (while the threshold was high, it wasn't unsurmountable) and in ROTS all clones we saw getting the order 66 command didn't even ask if what their heard was correct, instead of going instantly into Jedi hunting and killing mode.

[FaxModem1]

Order 66 makes sense in that camaraderie among soldiers is a thing, and the Clone troopers, even in the films, were friends with the Jedi and the flipping of a switch to kill your brother in arms is something that would be very odd to explain.

Soldiers can do terrible things when following orders.

Also, to quote Lama Su:

You'll find they are totally obedient, taking any order without question. We modified their genetic structure to make them less independent than the original host.

The clones are still humans, with less independence. That's still having a level of independence, just not Jengo Fett: "bounty hunter extraordinaire" outlaw independent. Which would be utterly horrible to have in an army of clones, as every single one acting like they know better, deserting their post and doing whatever the hell they wanted would make them a terrible army for the buyer.

This is why clones in the Clone Wars are better than droids, as they have more latitude and capability to making decisions. They aren't walking machines who obey while blinking blankly whenever told to pick up a stick and fetching it or to jump off a cliff. Then just standing awkwardly once their tasks are done. This is why a bio chip makes more sense for them to be killing off the Jedi, as they're millions of Trojan horses, waiting to be activated, subverting what the Jedi bud by giving them more humanity and independence over the years.

And as others have pointed out, soldiers doing things to the enemy is one thing, soldiers blindly storming their own base and wiping out their fellow soldiers is very different.

[Gandalf]

The clones are still humans, with less independence. That's still having a level of independence, just not Jengo Fett: "bounty hunter extraordinaire" outlaw independent. Which would be utterly horrible to have in an army of clones, as every single one acting like they know better, deserting their post and doing whatever the hell they wanted would make them a terrible army for the buyer.

This is why clones in the Clone Wars are better than droids, as they have more latitude and capability to making decisions. They aren't walking machines who obey while blinking blankly whenever told to pick up a stick and fetching it or to jump off a cliff. Then just standing awkwardly once their tasks are done. This is why a bio chip makes more sense for them to be killing off the Jedi, as they're millions of Trojan horses, waiting to be activated, subverting what the Jedi bud by giving them more humanity and independence over the years.

Lots of soldiers in various conflicts were able to make decisions on the ground too. Then when asked, they torched villages, and worse. IIRC the novelisation of ROTS has Obi-Wan's pet clone commander annoyed that he gave Obi-Wan his lightsabre back a few minutes earlier.

And as others have pointed out, soldiers doing things to the enemy is one thing, soldiers blindly storming their own base and wiping out their fellow soldiers is very different.

And if Jedi are redefined to be said enemy? My rough mental parallel is Operation Valkyrie, where Order 66 means "Jedi coup in progress."

[Gandalf]

Usually after trauma and after dehumanizing their enemies. Not their team mates.

Don't the clones have nearly a decade of training to be super obedient soldiers?

[FaxModem1]

The clones are still humans, with less independence. That's still having a level of independence, just not Jengo Fett: "bounty hunter extraordinaire" outlaw independent. Which would be utterly horrible to have in an army of clones, as every single one acting like they know better, deserting their post and doing whatever the hell they wanted would make them a terrible army for the buyer.

This is why clones in the Clone Wars are better than droids, as they have more latitude and capability to making decisions. They aren't walking machines who obey while blinking blankly whenever told to pick up a stick and fetching it or to jump off a cliff. Then just standing awkwardly once their tasks are done. This is why a bio chip makes more sense for them to be killing off the Jedi, as they're millions of Trojan horses, waiting to be activated, subverting what the Jedi bud by giving them more humanity and independence over the years.

Lots of soldiers in various conflicts were able to make decisions on the ground too. Then when asked, they torched villages, and worse. IIRC the novelisation of ROTS has Obi-Wan's pet clone commander annoyed that he gave Obi-Wan his lightsabre back a few minutes earlier.

[/quote]

And these are soldiers being led around by the Jedi. Unless the Jedi were having them torch villages, I'm assuming they followed some level of conduct. Also, are you not realizing the difference between 'team member' and 'enemy'? Tribal psychology, especially those forged in combat, can't be cut like that unless the officers are intentionally doing what they can to keep themselves separate from their enlisted. The Jedi, for the most part, were 'in the trenches' with their soldiers, and that built a relationship with them.

And as others have pointed out, soldiers doing things to the enemy is one thing, soldiers blindly storming their own base and wiping out their fellow soldiers is very different.

And if Jedi are redefined to be said enemy? My rough mental parallel is Operation Valkyrie, where Order 66 means "Jedi coup in progress."

Then you're missing the point that these are not some officers that they've been randomly picked for a firing line, or people who are fighting political battles against each other all the time like a viper's nest in a Fascist society, but people you've served with, who have personally saved your life at least over a dozen times over the past three years. Unless it's Pong Krell, who is actively trying to get you killed, most of the Jedi were considered good friends that the Clones bonded with because the Jedi, unlike most of the galaxy, treated them as people, and did what they could to make their lives better.

Jedi encouraged their independent thought, their individuality, even helped in naming them. If you don't understand the difference between the relationship of the clones and the Jedi, and the Nazis towards their officers, then you really aren't getting why the biochips would be necessary.

[Lord Revan]

Yeah one main things the Clone Wars CGI series told us is that the Jedi (for the most part) saw the clones as equals and treated them as such, with even high ranking members of the Jedi Order going out of their way to rescue single clones and risking their own life in the process.

the thing about Order 66 isn't just that it happened but it the clones executed it without any questions and as stated before the CGI series showed the kaminoans line about them "obeying without question" was an overstatement and the clones were in fact perfectly capable of questioning their orders if they felt those orders made no sense what so ever.

Another thing that's off about the bahaviour of the Clones during Order 66 is that it's all summary executions, at no point do the clones even seem to consider inprisonment and trials for treason for the jedi, it's capital punishment without a chance for a trial every single time. Yet when faced with a jedi they knew was a traitor (Pong Krell) they instead captured him and he as waiting trial when killed and said killing was considered crime as well (granted said clone was in jail for aiding Krell to begin with)

[Kane Starkiller]

I have mixed feelings on the trilogy but this particular idea
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vzPAmm6L1g is a new one (basically arguing that the movies are actually rather sexist and racist). Warning it's a long ass video

Then after more verbal abuse she develops feelings for her first rapist.
You know the man with the phallic shaped lightsaber that has a red vein running down the side that slowly rises to point at her while she's on her knees in front of him.

Paging doctor Rorschach! Doctor Hermann Rorschach please report to the psychiatric department!

[Knife]

Usually after trauma and after dehumanizing their enemies. Not their team mates.

Don't the clones have nearly a decade of training to be super obedient soldiers?

Part of that is a sense of brotherhood. In the series Clone Wars, they refer to each other as brother. Brothers squabble and fight but don't turn on each other and murder each other like psychotics.

[Lord Revan]

Usually after trauma and after dehumanizing their enemies. Not their team mates.

Don't the clones have nearly a decade of training to be super obedient soldiers?

Part of that is a sense of brotherhood. In the series Clone Wars, they refer to each other as brother. Brothers squabble and fight but don't turn on each other and murder each other like psychotics.

Another thing that clones do several times during the clone wars is question their orders if they think those orders aren't smart, part of Ashoka's arc at start was to earn the respect of the clones because they didn't just obey her without objections, even if the clones were polite with their objections.

So the clones are obedient but not to point where they're just biological droids who execute what ever order given to them without questions.

[The Romulan Republic]

I think I've said it before but my favourite template for TLJ would have been to literally make Alexander Nevsky in space. The real history isn't too important but in the classic (Soviet Propaganda for those who care) movie the plot is essentially that the people of the Republic of Novgorod call the film's hero out of retirement when the Teutonic Order massacre the population of the city of Pskov, and he has to rally the people of Novgorod to stand the crusader knights.

It's also a major influence on The Empire Strikes Back, with the main battle from the end of the movie the admitted inspiration for the Empire Strikes Back, though of course in that movie the good guys win.

That's literally all that Episode VIII needed to be. With Luke in the role of Nevsky in part, and passing that mantle on to Rey.

But most relevantly there's a scene in the movie where various people are shouting out in the assembly that their guild will produce a thousand lances, five hundred shields or so on for the Republic to avenge Pskov. That is what I want, not 'No one is coming to our rescue from our outer rim allies, no one will dare stand against the First Order.'

Just strike out Pskov and write in Hosnian change lances for fighter squadrons and shields for destroyers and guilds for sectors and the whole thing works as a rebuttal to the lackadaisical irrelevance of the New Republic in Ep. 7.

Between VII showing the New Republic as fools completely unprepared for battle, which I think is just poor worldbuilding, and VIII's deliberate pedaling of the 'Don't Join' message that resistance against fascism is futile the sequels have been thoroughly depressing thus far. I hope IX will at least make the Resistance into a real movement.

That wouldn't have been a bad movie, but it would have been a safer, more conventional one, and I'm not at all sure that that is inherently better.

And the last point, at least, I strongly dispute- the idea that TLJ was pushing the idea that one shouldn't resist fascism because fascism is futile. The film addresses those ideas, the sense of apathy and despair and "both sides" cynicism in much of modern society, and rightly so, because those issues are a very real part of the world we live in. But addressing something, acknowledging it, is not the same as endorsing it. The entire point of the film's conclusion, with Luke coming out of retirement, however briefly, is that resistance is not pointless. Hell, that's the entire point of the "pointless" character of Rose, and the "pointless" Canto Bight arc. Same with Finn's "rebel scum" line- he starts the film as someone who doesn't care about the cause, and over the course of the film, through his interactions with Rose (who very much does care about the cause), he comes to be a believer himself. But of course that doesn't stop all the fanboys from fapping over how "pointless" Rose and the Canto Bight scenes were. Likewise, when it comes to the topic of resistance and its futility, or lack thereof, the ultimate reveal is ignored, and the initial misdirect is treated as the final fact, just as with Holdo and Poe's conflict.

No, its not that there was no point to the Canto Bight scenes, or that Holdo was a coward and a traitor and Poe was right, or that the New Republic is useless, or that the message of the film is that there's no point fighting fascism and you shouldn't try. Those are arguments the film sets up in order to knock them down. But the bashers refuse to acknowledge that. Some of this may be honest misunderstanding, but given that these points have been made again and again, I am convinced that a lot of it is simply arguing in bad faith.

It is easy to bash TLJ and Johnson when you are arguing a film that is literally the opposite, point for point, of the one that was actually made.

Edit: And yes, I'm aware those aren't all arguments you've made here, obviously. My point is to illustrate a pattern, which is that most of the criticisms of TLJ (the ones that aren't openly based on bigotry or knee-jerk hostility toward anything new) are reliant at least in part on ignoring the film's ultimate reveals and subversions, and treating the set-up (which is often a misdirect) as the final fact.

[Darth Yan]

TLJ was a mess. If it had been a standalone it would have worked but as the middle movie in a trilogy do go so radically off course wasn't a smart move. It also focused more on themes rather than a story.

Johnson works better with his own characters (Knives out was hilarious)

[Knife]

That wouldn't have been a bad movie, but it would have been a safer, more conventional one, and I'm not at all sure that that is inherently better.

And the last point, at least, I strongly dispute- the idea that TLJ was pushing the idea that one shouldn't resist fascism because fascism is futile. The film addresses those ideas, the sense of apathy and despair and "both sides" cynicism in much of modern society, and rightly so, because those issues are a very real part of the world we live in. But addressing something, acknowledging it, is not the same as endorsing it. The entire point of the film's conclusion, with Luke coming out of retirement, however briefly, is that resistance is not pointless. Hell, that's the entire point of the "pointless" character of Rose, and the "pointless" Canto Bight arc. Same with Finn's "rebel scum" line- he starts the film as someone who doesn't care about the cause, and over the course of the film, through his interactions with Rose (who very much does care about the cause), he comes to be a believer himself. But of course that doesn't stop all the fanboys from fapping over how "pointless" Rose and the Canto Bight scenes were. Likewise, when it comes to the topic of resistance and its futility, or lack thereof, the ultimate reveal is ignored, and the initial misdirect is treated as the final fact, just as with Holdo and Poe's conflict.

No, its not that there was no point to the Canto Bight scenes, or that Holdo was a coward and a traitor and Poe was right, or that the New Republic is useless, or that the message of the film is that there's no point fighting fascism and you shouldn't try. Those are arguments the film sets up in order to knock them down. But the bashers refuse to acknowledge that. Some of this may be honest misunderstanding, but given that these points have been made again and again, I am convinced that a lot of it is simply arguing in bad faith.

It is easy to bash TLJ and Johnson when you are arguing a film that is literally the opposite, point for point, of the one that was actually made.

Edit: And yes, I'm aware those aren't all arguments you've made here, obviously. My point is to illustrate a pattern, which is that most of the criticisms of TLJ (the ones that aren't openly based on bigotry or knee-jerk hostility toward anything new) are reliant at least in part on ignoring the film's ultimate reveals and subversions, and treating the set-up (which is often a misdirect) as the final fact.

You can argue that that is the movie he tried to do, but in the end failed for a large chunk of the viewers. That's on him, not the viewers since he is making the damn film. He tried to do those lofty things you read into it, but it flopped like a wet noodle. You can pretend those who do not like it just don't understand it, or have other goals in mind, but we understand it just fine and think he failed at what he tried to do. And not one person in this tread is on a rant against Ms. Tran/Rose, so can we please drop the sermons in each post?