Could the Fulminatrix have pierced the Raddus's shields?

[FaxModem1]

In The Last Jedi, the Fulminatrix destroys the Resistance base from orbit, and is destroyed by bombers before it can target the Resistance fleet in a attack lead by Poe. If this ship had survived, could it have pierced the Raddus's shields during the long 18 hour chase?

If so, would range have mattered for the long chase that they engaged in?

Discuss.

[The Romulan Republic]

So far as I know, there's no answer to that question either way. The film certainly presents the canon as a threat to the Raadus, but we don't get hard numbers or see it fire on Raadus. So barring some further info from the EU, I consider it an open question.

Even if it could have, though, it should be noted that that does not justify Poe's actions in attacking it against orders, as he had no possible way of knowing that that particular unlikely scenario would occur, and based on all information available to the Resistance at the time, Leia was correct in ordering a retreat. Insurgent groups survive by using hit and run tactics, attacking soft targets while avoiding engagement with the enemy's heaviest units. Leia, who has been involved in insurgencies since her teens, knows this.

Poe's attack would have been a brilliant (if unlikely) success in a conventional war between peer forces, trading a couple of squadrons for a dreadnought. And I suspect he would have gotten a much lighter reprimand, or perhaps even rewarded, under those circumstances. However, it was a foolish move for an insurgency, where the enemy has more dreadnoughts to lose than the Resistance has fighter squadrons to lose, and the attack was unnecessary (based on information at the time) and against the primary goal of the Resistance, which was to avoid direct combat with the First Order's forces. Because those were literally the only fighters and bombers they had, while the enemy had plenty more dreadnoughts.

[Galvatron]

So far as I know, there's no answer to that question either way. The film certainly presents the canon as a threat to the Raadus, but we don't get hard numbers or see it fire on Raadus. So barring some further info from the EU, I consider it an open question.

TLJ ICS says it "was armed with two orbital bombardment cannons designed to penetrate planetary shields." I don't see how even the Raddus could survive a pounding from it.

https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Fulminatrix

[tezunegari]

Insurgent groups survive by using hit and run tactics, attacking soft targets while avoiding engagement with the enemy's heaviest units. Leia, who has been involved in insurgencies since her teens, knows this.

Poe's attack would have been a brilliant (if unlikely) success in a conventional war between peer forces, trading a couple of squadrons for a dreadnought. And I suspect he would have gotten a much lighter reprimand, or perhaps even rewarded, under those circumstances. However, it was a foolish move for an insurgency, where the enemy has more dreadnoughts to lose than the Resistance has fighter squadrons to lose, and the attack was unnecessary (based on information at the time) and against the primary goal of the Resistance, which was to avoid direct combat with the First Order's forces. Because those were literally the only fighters and bombers they had, while the enemy had plenty more dreadnoughts.

Soft target?
Like an enemy capital ship (designed to penetrate planetary shields and capital ship sniping) outside of the protective screen of other capital ships, that just lost all it's defense turrets, without a fighter screen and empty primary weapons?

[The Romulan Republic]

Insurgent groups survive by using hit and run tactics, attacking soft targets while avoiding engagement with the enemy's heaviest units. Leia, who has been involved in insurgencies since her teens, knows this.

Poe's attack would have been a brilliant (if unlikely) success in a conventional war between peer forces, trading a couple of squadrons for a dreadnought. And I suspect he would have gotten a much lighter reprimand, or perhaps even rewarded, under those circumstances. However, it was a foolish move for an insurgency, where the enemy has more dreadnoughts to lose than the Resistance has fighter squadrons to lose, and the attack was unnecessary (based on information at the time) and against the primary goal of the Resistance, which was to avoid direct combat with the First Order's forces. Because those were literally the only fighters and bombers they had, while the enemy had plenty more dreadnoughts.

Soft target?
Like an enemy capital ship (designed to penetrate planetary shields and capital ship sniping) outside of the protective screen of other capital ships, that just lost all it's defense turrets, without a fighter screen and empty primary weapons?

Without a fighter screen? Sure, they launched a little slow, but they were there, and they chewed up Poe's squadrons good.

I mean, I know the whole point of this thread is to subtly argue that Poe was 100% right and therefore Holdo was the Worst Leader Ever, but it would be a more convincing argument if its proponents could make it based on what actually happened on-screen.

[Galvatron]

What actually happened on-screen? Okay, what actually happened on-screen is that the First Order fleet tracked the Resistance fleet through hyperspace and then immediately attacked. Had the Fulminatrix been among them, chances are slim that the Resistance fleet would have survived long enough to put Holdo in command so I'm not even sure what this has to do with her.

[NecronLord]

Yes, absolutely. "Those things are fleet-killers."

Hux ordered them to fire on the base and then the fleet; he's a proven incompetent and this is just another aspect of his incompetence.

[tezunegari]

Insurgent groups survive by using hit and run tactics, attacking soft targets while avoiding engagement with the enemy's heaviest units. Leia, who has been involved in insurgencies since her teens, knows this.

Poe's attack would have been a brilliant (if unlikely) success in a conventional war between peer forces, trading a couple of squadrons for a dreadnought. And I suspect he would have gotten a much lighter reprimand, or perhaps even rewarded, under those circumstances. However, it was a foolish move for an insurgency, where the enemy has more dreadnoughts to lose than the Resistance has fighter squadrons to lose, and the attack was unnecessary (based on information at the time) and against the primary goal of the Resistance, which was to avoid direct combat with the First Order's forces. Because those were literally the only fighters and bombers they had, while the enemy had plenty more dreadnoughts.

Soft target?
Like an enemy capital ship (designed to penetrate planetary shields and capital ship sniping) outside of the protective screen of other capital ships, that just lost all it's defense turrets, without a fighter screen and empty primary weapons?

Without a fighter screen? Sure, they launched a little slow, but they were there, and they chewed up Poe's squadrons good.

I mean, I know the whole point of this thread is to subtly argue that Poe was 100% right and therefore Holdo was the Worst Leader Ever, but it would be a more convincing argument if its proponents could make it based on what actually happened on-screen.

On-screen:
1 bomber is destroyed by enemy fire hitting the bomb bay.
1 bomber is destroyed by a TIE crashing into bomb bay and causing the armed bombs to cause a friendly-fire incident
2 bombers are destroyed by Resistance bombs in a friendly-fire incident

Directly after the friendly-fire incident, there is only 1 bomber left.

Out of 4 bombers 3 were destroyed on-screen by happenstance, not intentional enemy action.

Furthermore, the last bomber was also destroyed by happenstance/bad luck.
The pilot and the bomb technician were dead so no one could alter the flight path and avoid the explosion of the bombs.

So, what destroyed the other 3 bombers?
We don't know.
But given the on-screen evidence, the implication to me is the friendly-fire incident.

What is your reasoning for believing that the bombers were destroyed by the TIEs?

[Vendetta]

Of course, if Poe had called the abort when he was told to and the Resistance had jumped, they would have had time to jump again before the Fulminatrix could retask from its bombardment of their now-evacuated base and follow them, even if it also had an active tracker.

So whether it could pierce the shields is irrelevant, it wouldn't have gotten to fire at them because they would have disappeared.

[tezunegari]

Of course, if Poe had called the abort when he was told to and the Resistance had jumped, they would have had time to jump again before the Fulminatrix could retask from its bombardment of their now-evacuated base and follow them, even if it also had an active tracker.

So whether it could pierce the shields is irrelevant, it wouldn't have gotten to fire at them because they would have disappeared.

Leia's "Abort Mission" and the fleet leaving was about 6 minutes on-screen time.
The hyperspace jump is roughly 70-80 seconds on-screen. (interrupted by Rey's scene on Ach-to I'll assume that it is the whole length of the jump)

From the arrival of the Resistance to Proximity Alert and arrival of the FO fleet, it's less than a minute.

Given that they were down to a single hyperspace jump already and didn't know where to go at the moment the FO fleet arrived, I highly doubt that aborting the attack would have prevented the FO attack in deep space.

Could they find a viable base within the seven minutes and immediate flight would have created?
Or would the Supremacy have arrived less than a minute after their arrival as well?

[Galvatron]

The Resistance even lost of one of their ships to the Supremacy's turbolasers before they could get out of range.

I also find it pretty silly that the First Order didn't just swarm the Resistance fleet with fighters, Endor-style. Kylo and his wingmen did massive damage by themselves, so just imagine what a dozen squadrons could have done.

There's absolutely no reason the First Order shouldn't have obliterated the Resistance then and there, with or without the Fulminatrix.

[ray245]

Poe's attack would have been a brilliant (if unlikely) success in a conventional war between peer forces, trading a couple of squadrons for a dreadnought. And I suspect he would have gotten a much lighter reprimand, or perhaps even rewarded, under those circumstances. However, it was a foolish move for an insurgency, where the enemy has more dreadnoughts to lose than the Resistance has fighter squadrons to lose, and the attack was unnecessary (based on information at the time) and against the primary goal of the Resistance, which was to avoid direct combat with the First Order's forces. Because those were literally the only fighters and bombers they had, while the enemy had plenty more dreadnoughts.

The question is why is the good guys fighting like a resistance in the first place? We know plenty of NR ships survived thanks to ROS, so Poe acting like this is just the start of a full scale war between the NR remnants and the FO forces as peer rivals is rather reasonable.

[The Romulan Republic]

Poe's attack would have been a brilliant (if unlikely) success in a conventional war between peer forces, trading a couple of squadrons for a dreadnought. And I suspect he would have gotten a much lighter reprimand, or perhaps even rewarded, under those circumstances. However, it was a foolish move for an insurgency, where the enemy has more dreadnoughts to lose than the Resistance has fighter squadrons to lose, and the attack was unnecessary (based on information at the time) and against the primary goal of the Resistance, which was to avoid direct combat with the First Order's forces. Because those were literally the only fighters and bombers they had, while the enemy had plenty more dreadnoughts.

The question is why is the good guys fighting like a resistance in the first place? We know plenty of NR ships survived thanks to ROS, so Poe acting like this is just the start of a full scale war between the NR remnants and the FO forces as peer rivals is rather reasonable.

So we're just going to ignore that the New Republic had largely collapsed by TLJ, that it was heavily demilitarized to begin with, that its fleets were not coordinating with the Resistance at the time, that TLJ is routinely attacked for the small scale of the Resistance as "proof" of what a terrible movie it is until its convenient to paint the Resistance as a large, powerful force in order to vindicate Poe, and just basically make up a different movie from the one that was on-screen?

[ray245]

So we're just going to ignore that the New Republic had largely collapsed by TLJ, that it was heavily demilitarized to begin with, that its fleets were not coordinating with the Resistance at the time, that TLJ is routinely attacked for the small scale of the Resistance as "proof" of what a terrible movie it is until its convenient to paint the Resistance as a large, powerful force in order to vindicate Poe, and just basically make up a different movie from the one that was on-screen?

I'm not attacking TLJ? Or at the least not what's depicted on screen? I am attacking the lack of thought being put in the overall writing process of the entire sequel trilogy and the implications it has on the internal logic of the Star Wars universe when different writers is actively shafting each other.

The internal logic of the entire trilogy suggest Poe's initial plan make sense if we consider the fact that there's still a sufficient NR force that can make up a massive fleet one year after the events of TLJ. The main fleet might be wiped out, but Poe as a NR officer is likely to be aware of the fact that there are other NR forces that can put up a fight against the NR when he attacked the Fulminatrix. He didn't know at the time that the NR remnant will fail to heed Leia's call for help until Lando magically changes everyone's mind.

[The Romulan Republic]

So we're just going to ignore that the New Republic had largely collapsed by TLJ, that it was heavily demilitarized to begin with, that its fleets were not coordinating with the Resistance at the time, that TLJ is routinely attacked for the small scale of the Resistance as "proof" of what a terrible movie it is until its convenient to paint the Resistance as a large, powerful force in order to vindicate Poe, and just basically make up a different movie from the one that was on-screen?

I'm not attacking TLJ? Or at the least not what's depicted on screen? I am attacking the lack of thought being put in the overall writing process of the entire sequel trilogy and the implications it has on the internal logic of the Star Wars universe when different writers is actively shafting each other.

The internal logic of the entire trilogy suggest Poe's initial plan make sense if we consider the fact that there's still a sufficient NR force that can make up a massive fleet one year after the events of TLJ. The main fleet might be wiped out, but Poe as a NR officer is likely to be aware of the fact that there are other NR forces that can put up a fight against the NR when he attacked the Fulminatrix. He didn't know at the time that the NR remnant will fail to heed Leia's call for help until Lando magically changes everyone's mind.

Yet another way RoS soft-retconned TLJ, I guess.

You can make justifications for Poe's actions in hindsight, sure. But based on the information he and Leia had about the strategic situation at the time, her position was more logical than his. That's basically my point. You could speculate that Poe would have known about those forces, but TLJ presents the situation as fairly bleak for the Resistance, not one where they could count on being able to wage a successful conventional war any time soon (and in doing so, was following on the situation set up, rather ill-advisedly, by TFA).

[ray245]

Yet another way RoS soft-retconned TLJ, I guess.

You can make justifications for Poe's actions in hindsight, sure. But based on the information he and Leia had about the strategic situation at the time, her position was more logical than his. That's basically my point. You could speculate that Poe would have known about those forces, but TLJ presents the situation as fairly bleak for the Resistance, not one where they could count on being able to wage a successful conventional war any time soon (and in doing so, was following on the situation set up, rather ill-advisedly, by TFA).

Using internal logic, is it more likely for Poe to assume the NR fleet survivors can muster and regroup to mount a sufficient counter-offensive? Poe certainly did not believe the NR is gone as a fighting force, as he continued to identify himself as a NR officer. In fact, wasn't that their plan to begin with? Withdraw and regroup to organise the survivors into a capable fighting force to fight back against the FO.

At that time Poe didn't know about the FO Mega-class SSD, and the Fulminatrix is the biggest known FO warship in existence. Things only got bleak for the resistance once they realised they are being actively tracked.

[Galvatron]

Why is it so hard to acknowledge that Poe's defiance of Leia's orders saved them all? Is it really any worse than admitting that the Falcon wouldn't have escaped Bespin if Luke hadn't defied Yoda?

[The Romulan Republic]

Why is it so hard to acknowledge that Poe's defiance of Leia's orders saved them all? Is it really any worse than admitting that the Falcon wouldn't have escaped Bespin if Luke hadn't defied Yoda?

Because its not that clear-cut, and that narrative is used to:

a) Argue that everything Poe said and did during the film was completely right.

b) Argue that Holdo is a terrible leader for not catering to Poe's entitlement.

c) Argue that TLJ is therefore a bad film, and that everything its bashers say is right.

Here, let me put it this way: If I started firing randomly into a crowd while drunk, and I happened to hit a terrorist who would have blown up the crowd, but who I had no idea was there, would that retroactively justify my decision to fire drunkenly into the crowd? 'Cause that's basically what happened here. Poe did something fucking stupid, and happened to get lucky in that it indirectly may have prevented something bad happening later, with the benefit of hindsight he did not have at the time he made his decision.

[Jub]

Poe did something fucking stupid, and happened to get lucky in that it indirectly may have prevented something bad happening later, with the benefit of hindsight he did not have at the time he made his decision.

Except that Poe didn't do anything stupid. He took a bunch of bombers that are so useless as to make me wonder who the fuck authorized their construction in the first place and traded them for a large capital ship.

Had he not done that the fleet would have been engaged by an additional capital ship that could have potentially resulted in even worse results for the fleet. In addition, even if he brought all of the bombers back alive we know that both the bombers and their crews would have died due to Holdo's lack of leadership and inability to work out a plan that didn't involve sacrificing three ships and 99% of the crew under her command.

So Poe took the exact right action given both at the time and in hindsight.

[Galvatron]

Why is it so hard to acknowledge that Poe's defiance of Leia's orders saved them all? Is it really any worse than admitting that the Falcon wouldn't have escaped Bespin if Luke hadn't defied Yoda?

Because its not that clear-cut

Snipping out the rest because I find it completely irrelevant. "Because it's devastating to my case" with regard to your ongoing defense of TLJ isn't really an argument.

How is it not clear-cut that the Fulminatrix would have absolutely murdered the Resistance fleet if Poe hadn't insisted on destroying it over D'Qar? Even if they'd managed to survive long enough to enact their plan, the Fulminatrix also had enough firepower to obliterate the base on Crait from orbit.

[The Romulan Republic]

Why is it so hard to acknowledge that Poe's defiance of Leia's orders saved them all? Is it really any worse than admitting that the Falcon wouldn't have escaped Bespin if Luke hadn't defied Yoda?

Because its not that clear-cut

Snipping out the rest because I find it completely irrelevant. "Because it's devastating to my case" with regard to your ongoing defense of TLJ isn't really an argument.

This is misrepresenting my argument.

I am not objecting "because it would be devastating to my case", an insulting claim that amounts to a false accusation of dishonesty against me. Any case in defense of Holdo and against Poe is not meaningfully harmed in fact by an admission that Poe was "right", with the benefit of hindsight, to destroy the Fulminatrix. Conceding that wouldn't prove that all of his ranting entitlement and insubordination toward Holdo was justified. It wouldn't prove that Holdo was a bad leader for not devoting all of her time in a crisis to assuaging the ego of an entitled man. It wouldn't prove that TLJ is a bad film.

But it will nonetheless be USED as "proof" of all those things, as you just demonstrated. And it will also be used as evidence of womens' unfitness to lead, because however uncomfortable it makes the overwhelmingly male population of this board to acknowledge it, a lot of Holdo bashing and Poe defense is either implicitly or overtly sexist, and draws its strength from the need to validate male entitlement and resentment. And you can't separate that argument from the rest of the conversation, because its one the film was deliberately trying to invoke.

That's what I have an issue with, not some arcane debate over whether the Fulminatrix's guns could penetrate the Raadus's shields, or whether the Resistance benefited in the long-run via Poe's actions. Because that's not what this is really about. Its about (as you are clearly aware) trying to "prove" that Holdo is a bad leader, and that all of Poe's attacks on her were justified. And that is a debate which is inextricably tied to the debate over female leadership vs male entitlement. If I could concede the first point without it being taken as a concession of the latter, fine. But I can't, because it will be.

How is it not clear-cut that the Fulminatrix would have absolutely murdered the Resistance fleet if Poe hadn't insisted on destroying it over D'Qar? Even if they'd managed to survive long enough to enact their plan, the Fulminatrix also had enough firepower to obliterate the base on Crait from orbit.

That's not what's in contention here.

That the Fulminatrix could have destroyed the Raadus if it had survived to be deployed against it at Crait is not in doubt. But Poe had no way of knowing that at the time. None/ Based on the information available at the time, he made the wrong call, and Leia made the right one, because the First Order's ability to track them was completely unknown, as far as they knew they, and insurgencies do not survive by engaging the enemies' heaviest units head-on.

So, if you want a "concession" that the Fulminatrix was a threat to the fleet? Well, I can't really concede a point I never argued to begin with, but yeah. Of course it was. But that's not really what this argument is about, and not really what I'm being asked to concede.

[Galvatron]

Conceding that wouldn't prove that all of his ranting entitlement and insubordination toward Holdo was justified. It wouldn't prove that Holdo was a bad leader for not devoting all of her time in a crisis to assuaging the ego of an entitled man. It wouldn't prove that TLJ is a bad film.

But it will nonetheless be USED as "proof" of all those things, as you just demonstrated.

I didn't demonstrate it. You did. Your refusal to concede an obvious point because you're afraid it'll undermine your position is some other debate is a you thing, not a me thing.

I'm not interested in those other arguments in this thread, as I already pointed out before when I said I didn't see what it had to do with Holdo.

Let's put it another way: Poe made the right decision, but for the wrong reason. There. It's that simple.

[Ralin]

But it will nonetheless be USED as "proof" of all those things, as you just demonstrated. And it will also be used as evidence of womens' unfitness to lead, because however uncomfortable it makes the overwhelmingly male population of this board to acknowledge it, a lot of Holdo bashing and Poe defense is either implicitly or overtly sexist, and draws its strength from the need to validate male entitlement and resentment. And you can't separate that argument from the rest of the conversation, because its one the film was deliberately trying to invoke.

That's what I have an issue with, not some arcane debate over whether the Fulminatrix's guns could penetrate the Raadus's shields, or whether the Resistance benefited in the long-run via Poe's actions. Because that's not what this is really about. Its about (as you are clearly aware) trying to "prove" that Holdo is a bad leader, and that all of Poe's attacks on her were justified. And that is a debate which is inextricably tied to the debate over female leadership vs male entitlement. If I could concede the first point without it being taken as a concession of the latter, fine. But I can't, because it will be.

Or...you know...it could be that we recognize what the film was going for with the Holdo/Poe conflict and even like the idea but think that the execution was botched. I see literally no one here saying that Poe was completely right. In fact he probably came pretty close to fucking everything up. But a lot of his reaction was rational given the circumstances.

[Galvatron]

I'll even go a step further and agree with TRR that "the information [Poe] and Leia had about the strategic situation at the time, her position was more logical than his."

Citing the novelization of TLJ, the Wookieepedia states: "the collapse of the New Republic had seen the destruction of its home fleet, and, although some task forces survived, they were dissolved by senators to protect their homeworlds."

The fact that no one answered their distress call from Crait proved that Leia was entirely justified in wanting to conserve their resources, regardless of how many ships eventually showed up for the final battle in ROS.

[The Romulan Republic]

But it will nonetheless be USED as "proof" of all those things, as you just demonstrated. And it will also be used as evidence of womens' unfitness to lead, because however uncomfortable it makes the overwhelmingly male population of this board to acknowledge it, a lot of Holdo bashing and Poe defense is either implicitly or overtly sexist, and draws its strength from the need to validate male entitlement and resentment. And you can't separate that argument from the rest of the conversation, because its one the film was deliberately trying to invoke.

That's what I have an issue with, not some arcane debate over whether the Fulminatrix's guns could penetrate the Raadus's shields, or whether the Resistance benefited in the long-run via Poe's actions. Because that's not what this is really about. Its about (as you are clearly aware) trying to "prove" that Holdo is a bad leader, and that all of Poe's attacks on her were justified. And that is a debate which is inextricably tied to the debate over female leadership vs male entitlement. If I could concede the first point without it being taken as a concession of the latter, fine. But I can't, because it will be.

Or...you know...it could be that we recognize what the film was going for with the Holdo/Poe conflict and even like the idea but think that the execution was botched. I see literally no one here saying that Poe was completely right. In fact he probably came pretty close to fucking everything up. But a lot of his reaction was rational given the circumstances.

I wouldn't say rational, in fact highly irrational, but understandable to a point.

Poe is pretty clearly a man breaking down under a variety of pressures. That doesn't justify his actions, but I think its fair to say that he was not in his best frame of mind for most of TLJ. The demotion, the loss of everyone under his command (many due to his own decisions, which his superiors then rebuked him for), the fear, the waiting and siege mentality as the fleet was run down...

No, I don't think he was acting rationally. He's a man breaking down.

Of course, that's all the more reason not to trust him with command, or sensitive information.