And Rumsfeldclaims the troops have stopped the looting, yet on TV you see pictures of troops WAVING to Iraqi looters. [/url]Iraq's national museum plundered
Site was home to artifacts dating back thousands of years
Whereabouts of Hammurabi's Code unknown
BAGHDAD, Iraq (AP) - The famed Iraq National Museum, (link, link) home of extraordinary Babylonian, Sumerian and Assyrian collections and rare Islamic texts, sat empty Saturday - except for shattered glass display cases and cracked pottery bowls that littered the floor.
In an unchecked frenzy of cultural theft, looters who pillaged government buildings and businesses after the collapse of Saddam Hussein's regime also targeted the museum. Gone were irreplaceable archaeological treasures from the Cradle of Civilization.
Everything that could be carried out has disappeared from the museum - gold bowls and drinking cups, ritual masks worn in funerals, elaborately wrought headdresses, lyres studded with jewels - priceless craftsmanship from ancient Mesopotamia.
"This is the property of this nation and the treasure of 7,000 years of civilization. What does this country think it is doing?'' asked Ali Mahmoud, a museum employee, futility and frustration in his voice.
Much of the looting occurred Thursday, according to a security guard who stood by helplessly as hoards broke into the museum with wheelbarrows and carts and stole priceless jewelry, clay tablets and manuscripts.
Left behind were row upon row of empty glass cases - some smashed up, others left intact - heaps of crumbled pottery and hunks of broken statues scattered across the exhibit floors.
Sensing its treasures could be in peril, museum curators secretly removed antiquities from their display cases before the war and placed them into storage vaults - but to no avail. The doors of the vaults were opened or smashed, and everything was taken, museum workers said. That lead one museum employee to suspect that others familiar with the museum may have participated in the theft.
"The fact that the vaults were opened suggests that employees of the museum may have been involved," said the employee, who declined to be identified. "To ordinarily people, these are just stones. Only the educated know the value of these pieces.''
Gordon Newby, a historian and professor of Middle Eastern studies at Emory University in Atlanta, said the museum's most famous holding may have been tablets with Hammurabi's Code - one of mankind's earliest codes of law. It could not be determined whether the tablets were at the museum when the war broke out.
Other treasures believed to be housed at the museum - such as the Ram in the Thicket from Ur, a statue representing a deity from 2600 B.C. - are no doubt gone, perhaps forever, he said.
"This is just one of the most tragic things that could happen for our being able to understand the past," Newby said. The looting, he said, "is destroying the history of the very people that are there.''
John Russell, a professor of art history and archaeology at the Massachusetts College of Art, feared for the safety of the staff of Iraq's national antiquities department, also housed at the museum; for irreplacable records of every archaeological expedition in Iraq since the 1930s; for perhaps hundreds of thousands of artifacts from 10,000 years of civilization, both on display and in storage.
Among them, he said, was the copper head of an Akkadian king, at least 4,300 years old. Its eyes were gouged out, nose flattened, ears and beard cut off, apparently by subjects who took their revenge on his image - much the same way as Iraqis mutilated statues of Saddam.
"These are the foundational cornerstones of Western civilization," Russell said, and are literally priceless - which he said will not prevent them from finding a price on the black market.
Some of the gold artifacts may be melted down, but most pieces will find their way into the hands of private collectors, he said.
The chances of recovery are slim; regional museums were looted after the 1991 Gulf War, and 4,000 pieces were lost.
"I understand three or four have been recovered," he said.
Koichiro Matsuura, head of the U.N.'s cultural agency, UNESCO, on Saturday urged American officials to send troops to protect what was left of the museum's collection, and said the military should step in to stop looting and destruction at other key archaeological sites and museums.
The governments of Russia, Jordan and Greece also voiced deep concern about the looting. Jordan urged the United Nations to take steps to protect Iraq's historic sites, a "national treasure for the Iraqi people and an invaluable heritage for the Arab and Islamic worlds.''
Some blamed the U.S. military, though coalition forces say they have taken great pains to avoid damage to cultural and historical sites.
A museum employee, reduced to tears after coming to the museum Saturday and finding her office and all administrative offices trashed by looters, said: "It is all the fault of the Americans. This is Iraq's civilization. And it's all gone now." She refused to give her name.
The Americans knew that the museum was at risk and could have protected it, said Patty Gerstenblith, a professor at DePaul School of Law in Chicago who helped circulate a petition before the war, urging that care be taken to protect Iraqi antiquities.
"It was completely inexcusable and avoidable," she said.
The museum itself was battered. Its marble staircase was chipped, likely by looters using pushcarts or heavy slabs of wood to carry booty down from the second floor. The museum is in the Al-Salhiya neighborhood of Baghdad, with its back to a poor neighborhood.
Early Saturday, five armed men showed up at the gate: One was armed with a Kalashnikov, three carried pistols, one wielded an iron bar. The man with the assault rifle walked into the museum, accused journalists there of stealing artifacts and ordered them to leave.
He claimed to be there to protect the museum from plundering. One of the men said he was a member of the feared Fedayeen Saddam militia.
"You think Saddam is now gone, so you can do what you like,'' he raged.
Iraq Museum Plundered
Moderators: Alyrium Denryle, Edi, K. A. Pital
Iraq Museum Plundered
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You can replace a hospital bed, not this.Wicked Pilot wrote:What's this? No accidental civilian deaths lately, so we have to report on the looting?
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People said the same thing when the Mona Lisa was stolen. As to this stuff being irreplacable, it can be recovered and more can be found. That is not the case with human lives.fgalkin wrote:You do realize that a lot of this stuff is irreplacable?
I have a question for you all, and would appreciate an honest answer if you wish to give one. If you had a choice between saving either the Smithsonian Museum of Natural History, or 5,000 people you have never met before, which would you choose?
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Indeed. Most things are technically irreplaceable. If you steal my box of Cornflakes, I would be able to buy more Cornflakes, but I would never be able to replace the peaceful morning breakfast that you stole from me. BASTARD!!!!!Wicked Pilot wrote:People said the same thing when the Mona Lisa was stolen. As to this stuff being irreplacable, it can be recovered and more can be found. That is not the case with human lives.fgalkin wrote:You do realize that a lot of this stuff is irreplacable?
But irreplaceability does not necessarily make something intrinsically valuable.
I think most people know I think cultural artifacts are overrated in terms of importance. I would prefer to save one person (assuming we're not talking about a child molester, mass murderer, etc) over the entire Smithsonian, never mind 5,000.I have a question for you all, and would appreciate an honest answer if you wish to give one. If you had a choice between saving either the Smithsonian Museum of Natural History, or 5,000 people you have never met before, which would you choose?
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Well, there is a big difference between a world-renowed painting, which is familiar to most people in the world (the Mona Lisa) and a wierd cuniform tablet, which no average person can recognize (the Hammurabbi code). Don't forget that whoever stole the Mona Lisa knew what they were stealing, while the Iraqis who took the Hammurabbi code had no clue. They could have destroyed it already, or used it to close a hole in the wall of their house, or whatever. It is also likely that they broken it into little pieces with intent to sell them to archaelologists (this hapens a lot).Wicked Pilot wrote:People said the same thing when the Mona Lisa was stolen. As to this stuff being irreplacable, it can be recovered and more can be found. That is not the case with human lives.fgalkin wrote:You do realize that a lot of this stuff is irreplacable?
I have a question for you all, and would appreciate an honest answer if you wish to give one. If you had a choice between saving either the Smithsonian Museum of Natural History, or 5,000 people you have never met before, which would you choose?
As for your second question, I would choose the people (The Museum of Natural History has nothing really important in it ). However, could you tell me how your question relates to the article?
Have a very nice day.
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Iraq's well on the way to a capitalist society by embracing the concepts of "Every man for himself!" and "Gimme that; it's MINE!".
They're already rioting and looting like we do in the United States; it's only a matter of time until they step into a poll with more than one option.
They're already rioting and looting like we do in the United States; it's only a matter of time until they step into a poll with more than one option.
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Uh, Hammurabi's Code isn't as well-known as the Mona Lisa, obviously, but I would still say that they knew what they were stealing. It's a pretty important part of the history of that area.Well, there is a big difference between a world-renowed painting, which is familiar to most people in the world (the Mona Lisa) and a wierd cuniform tablet, which no average person can recognize (the Hammurabbi code). Don't forget that whoever stole the Mona Lisa knew what they were stealing, while the Iraqis who took the Hammurabbi code had no clue. They could have destroyed it already, or used it to close a hole in the wall of their house, or whatever. It is also likely that they broken it into little pieces with intent to sell them to archaelologists (this hapens a lot).
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They're likely to break it and sell it then.Durran Korr wrote:Uh, Hammurabi's Code isn't as well-known as the Mona Lisa, obviously, but I would still say that they knew what they were stealing. It's a pretty important part of the history of that area.Well, there is a big difference between a world-renowed painting, which is familiar to most people in the world (the Mona Lisa) and a wierd cuniform tablet, which no average person can recognize (the Hammurabbi code). Don't forget that whoever stole the Mona Lisa knew what they were stealing, while the Iraqis who took the Hammurabbi code had no clue. They could have destroyed it already, or used it to close a hole in the wall of their house, or whatever. It is also likely that they broken it into little pieces with intent to sell them to archaelologists (this hapens a lot).
Have a very nice day.
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I think somebody would know if they stole something like the Hammurabbi code, if its famous there, most people will know its location. And it probably said so at the base of the exhibit.
As for the "5,000 or Smithsonian" question, I'm not sure the point of that. I don't think anyones suggesting will pull out of the war on the basis that people are looting museums.
As for the "5,000 or Smithsonian" question, I'm not sure the point of that. I don't think anyones suggesting will pull out of the war on the basis that people are looting museums.
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So, why would they steal it then?Darth Garden Gnome wrote:I think somebody would know if they stole something like the Hammurabbi code, if its famous there, most people will know its location. And it probably said so at the base of the exhibit.
As for the "5,000 or Smithsonian" question, I'm not sure the point of that. I don't think anyones suggesting will pull out of the war on the basis that people are looting museums.
Have a very nice day.
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That which is obscure to us may not be obscure to everyone. Let us not be egocentric.Darth Garden Gnome wrote:I think somebody would know if they stole something like the Hammurabbi code, if its famous there, most people will know its location. And it probably said so at the base of the exhibit.
The point is to find out just how much value you place on "cultural artifacts".As for the "5,000 or Smithsonian" question, I'm not sure the point of that. I don't think anyones suggesting will pull out of the war on the basis that people are looting museums.
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing
"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC
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"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC
"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness
"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
*Steals Mike's Cornflakes*Darth Wong wrote: Indeed. Most things are technically irreplaceable. If you steal my box of Cornflakes, I would be able to buy more Cornflakes, but I would never be able to replace the peaceful morning breakfast that you stole from me. BASTARD!!!!!
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The extent of the looting to the museum is being exagerrated, because some of the people being interviewed haven't even been there yet and are just acting hysterical (or playing it up because they're regime lackeys), and because of the simple fact a lot of it is hard to move. Has anyone seen a picture of Hammurabi's Code? The thing is inscribed on a massive granite block. Why would anyone want to steal that? It'd be nearly impossible to move unless you had a truck (I mean an actual truck, not a pickup truck), and harder to hide - and you'd probably have to shoot an RPG at it to destroy it.
Yes, I'll admit that this has gotten a bit out of hand, but letting the people loot the regime buildings and the homes of the people who supported the regime is a far better policy than trying to stop them - You want to make the people happy with you, not try to oppose them, and that means letting them take back from the regime what they feel they deserve. People have been discovering hordes of food in the homes of the Ba'ath party loyalists, and have been cooking so much bread that they're tossing it out into the crowds for free. That kind of bounty was a fantasy before this.
Control will be reestablished within a week, about the same time people will get exhausted of this anyway, and the potential destruction of some national treasures (we'll likely recover most of them in truth, though) is a sad thing and makes me personally rather depressed - But it will probably also make the Iraqis think a bit afterwards, and that will be useful for setting up the new government.
Yes, I'll admit that this has gotten a bit out of hand, but letting the people loot the regime buildings and the homes of the people who supported the regime is a far better policy than trying to stop them - You want to make the people happy with you, not try to oppose them, and that means letting them take back from the regime what they feel they deserve. People have been discovering hordes of food in the homes of the Ba'ath party loyalists, and have been cooking so much bread that they're tossing it out into the crowds for free. That kind of bounty was a fantasy before this.
Control will be reestablished within a week, about the same time people will get exhausted of this anyway, and the potential destruction of some national treasures (we'll likely recover most of them in truth, though) is a sad thing and makes me personally rather depressed - But it will probably also make the Iraqis think a bit afterwards, and that will be useful for setting up the new government.
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For a tidy finder's fee, of coursekojikun wrote:i would have stolen shit from the museum for the sake of preventing the greedy hoardes from taking it, then when the museum reestablishes itself i'd give it back.
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing
"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC
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http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC
"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness
"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.
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I'm really offended by the bent this thread is taking.
Is it because Ted posted this?
Or do people really find the potential loss of WORLD treasures this trivial? This isn't simply a localised Iraqi-interest story, these are artefacts from the dawn of western civilisation.
And I fail to see any relevance in the 5,000 people or Smithsonian scenario.
Putting a couple marines in front of the damned place could have prevented a good deal of looting.
Is it because Ted posted this?
Or do people really find the potential loss of WORLD treasures this trivial? This isn't simply a localised Iraqi-interest story, these are artefacts from the dawn of western civilisation.
And I fail to see any relevance in the 5,000 people or Smithsonian scenario.
Putting a couple marines in front of the damned place could have prevented a good deal of looting.
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5,000 people vs the Air and Space museum.
...no third options?
...no third options?
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We all know they can`t stel heavy object,its the smaller artefacts they take and if they are real jerks they may break the big pieces.The Duchess of Zeon wrote:The extent of the looting to the museum is being exagerrated, because some of the people being interviewed haven't even been there yet and are just acting hysterical (or playing it up because they're regime lackeys), and because of the simple fact a lot of it is hard to move. Has anyone seen a picture of Hammurabi's Code? The thing is inscribed on a massive granite block. Why would anyone want to steal that? It'd be nearly impossible to move unless you had a truck (I mean an actual truck, not a pickup truck), and harder to hide - and you'd probably have to shoot an RPG at it to destroy it.
Yes, I'll admit that this has gotten a bit out of hand, but letting the people loot the regime buildings and the homes of the people who supported the regime is a far better policy than trying to stop them - You want to make the people happy with you, not try to oppose them, and that means letting them take back from the regime what they feel they deserve. People have been discovering hordes of food in the homes of the Ba'ath party loyalists, and have been cooking so much bread that they're tossing it out into the crowds for free. That kind of bounty was a fantasy before this.
Control will be reestablished within a week, about the same time people will get exhausted of this anyway, and the potential destruction of some national treasures (we'll likely recover most of them in truth, though) is a sad thing and makes me personally rather depressed - But it will probably also make the Iraqis think a bit afterwards, and that will be useful for setting up the new government.
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There's no justification for Iraqis to loot this museum. The museum doesn't have tides to any regime or dictator. The riches there weren't money or power stolen from the people. The looters are just being thugs and thieves as oppose to merely showing their displeasure with totalitarian regime.
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