Homelessness In America

Raoul Duke, Jr. · Post by **Raoul Duke, Jr.** » 2003-04-15 10:53am

This is related to an investigative report some of you may be familiar with. Looking for your general take on the whole issue.

Peregrin Toker · Post by **Peregrin Toker** » 2003-04-15 10:56am

I don't think that homelessness in America is different from homelessness in many other countries, but I suppose that homeless people in America have a harder time than homeless people in, say, Europe, since there's not as much welfare. However, welfare is only one solution out of many.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-04-15 11:05am

Your inner-cities look like shit. Homelessness is a major problem.

Personally, I feel zero guilt about homelessness because I contribute taxes toward a strong public welfare system which they can all take advantage of if they want to. Their failure to do so is, therefore, not my problem and not my guilt-trip. So I feel free to ignore bleeding-heart protesters and beggars on the street without pangs of compunction.

Having said that, there are limits to what you can do for homelessness. There are people sleeping on grates outside of half-empty homeless shelters in Toronto because the homeless shelters have "no weapons, no drugs, no alcohol" rules and they refuse to go in for that reason. So I say "fuck 'em, let 'em freeze to death for all I care". There are a lot of reasons people who are homeless do not want to go to the authorities for welfare, and apart from mental illness, I can't muster sympathy for any of them.

As for the mentally ill, I think they should be institutionalized, but the last person who said that in Toronto was tarred and feathered by the PC crowd because you can't institutionalize people against their will. So I guess it's back to "let 'em freeze to death".

Superman · Post by **Superman** » 2003-04-15 11:14am

Anyone been to Los Angeles lately? When you walk around downtown, you have to step over a homeless person sleeping every couple of steps. It's pretty bad.

In America, our public mental health system has all but been destroyed. These corporations have all of the money, with virtually zero left for our public health.

Raoul Duke, Jr. · Post by **Raoul Duke, Jr.** » 2003-04-15 11:14am

Well, I guess my judgement of the issue has been somewhat clouded by having spent 7 days with a group of them for this report I mentioned. I don't pity them, either. Most of them don't pity themselves. But, take my word for this, their existence is no vacation.

Post by **haas mark** » 2003-04-15 11:20am

Well.. all I can do is speak from experience. Homelessness is NOT a fun thing, especially for teenagers. Although there are somewhat increasing numbers of places that care for teenagers. In ALbuquerque, I can't do either of them.. the first (Joy Junction) is for girls with kids, or guys with girls withkids, and you see why I am ruled out of that one. The other isn't a stay-overnight thing unless you're there by a certain time.. the other aids for teens here in ALbuquerque aren't shelters, so that sucks more. In addition, there are less for women than there are for men.. it's a wonder.. and then being only 18, it's a lot harder for pretty much anything. ALthough I've never actually SLEPT outside, I've come pretty close a few times..

As for the welfare system, it is difficult sometimes to get on.. but easy to get things like Food Stamps.. bleargh.. I'm needing some time off the comp, so yeah..

Kelly Antilles · Post by **Kelly Antilles** » 2003-04-15 11:20am

Darth Wong wrote:Your inner-cities look like shit. Homelessness is a major problem.

But, it is mostly in large cities.

Too bad the YMCA isn't what it used to be.

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2003-04-15 11:34am

In the US, if you don't want to sleep outside you don't have too. If you don't want to be hungry, you don't have too. There are a shit load of services both goverment and charitable to take care of a variety of needs. The trick is that some if not most have conditions to use the services. Alot of the charity is religeon based and the goverment want you to not use its money on drugs and booze.

So as with most things in life, people have a choise and if they choose to sleep on the street and either freeze and/or starve because they don't want to get a job, suffer at the hands of the fundies, or stop doing drugs so they can get help, then fuck em.

As for the poor unfortunate fellow who losses his job and through a chain reaction losses his house and ect... There are plenty of programes to help him/her as well. Living on the streets is a choice. Starving in this country is a choice. To each his own.

Slartibartfast · Post by **Slartibartfast** » 2003-04-15 12:16pm

Knife wrote:Starving in this country is a choice.

Is it really? I thought it was because the fat people was eating all the food

Superman · Post by **Superman** » 2003-04-15 12:46pm

No, because we have fat poor people too.

What kind of country do we live in where the majority of the poor are obese? Fat poor people. Good god...

neoolong · Post by **neoolong** » 2003-04-15 12:50pm

A lot of the homeless here I just don't care about helping. Why the hell are they asking me for money when it seems they have more luxury goods than I do?

jegs2 · Post by **jegs2** » 2003-04-15 12:59pm

Can speak only for those with whom I've dealt, but I watched fully-capable men on the street with "WILL WORK FOR FOOD" signs reject legitimate job offers. In my opinion, the only people who should receive social benefits (i.e. welfare) are those who cannot work, not those who will not work. And no, they don't get to hold out for the jobs they particularly want, while rejecting lower-paying jobs because they feel it is beneath them (i.e. "I ain't workin' at no McDonalds!").

Raoul Duke, Jr. · Post by **Raoul Duke, Jr.** » 2003-04-15 02:20pm

jegs2 wrote:Can speak only for those with whom I've dealt, but I watched fully-capable men on the street with "WILL WORK FOR FOOD" signs reject legitimate job offers. In my opinion, the only people who should receive social benefits (i.e. welfare) are those who cannot work, not those who will not work. And no, they don't get to hold out for the jobs they particularly want, while rejecting lower-paying jobs because they feel it is be (i.e. "I ain't workin' at no McDonalds!").

I agree. I've seen them in the course of producing the report I mentioned. Not pretty. Most of the kids, by the way (younger than 30) are only out there for anywhere from 2 weeks to 2 months, tops.

Post by **Lagmonster** » 2003-04-15 02:27pm

I've seen people camped out outside of restaurants and malls with NOW HIRING signs in the windows.

Not being a sociologist, I have no clue what it is that leads people to poverty in general, but I *do* know that the few people I knew in high school who sunk there did so based on their own unwillingness to educate themselves when education was free or cheap, or an unwillingness to work.

You can always tell in high school which people are going to be asking you for change in twenty years. They're the ones who do jack shit in class, or who feel that their popularity or athletic ability is going to carry them onwards in life.

Gil Hamilton · Post by **Gil Hamilton** » 2003-04-15 02:50pm

Well, I've actually have some experience working with homeless men, as I volunteer at a shelter for homeless men run through a local church. From experience, there are a wide variety of people I've met.

Some, of course, are insane or on drugs and aren't fit to work. These people need help, and badly, because they are messed up. Not the worst of the crowd, as many of them genuinely want to get help (or else, they wouldn't be in a shelter, they'd be like the guy who sleeps on the grate outside a Salvation Army). One man down there, who is sort of the reason I continue to volunteer there, is probably one of the hardest working but unfit to work men I've ever met. He's a bright guy and knows alot about mechanics, but unfortunately, back in the sixties, he was drafted, packed off to Vietnam and combined with post-traumatic stress syndrome and getting caught on drugs, he came back a mess. Then his family disowned him. So he ended up on the streets and found his way to the shelter and has been there for a long time. Here's the kicker though. Like everyday, he'd get up and wander around Pittsburgh looking for work, knowing full well that no one is going to hire him due to him being quite insane and unfit to work. I met him when I first started volunteering in my freshman year in highschool. I know he eventually left, I think because one of the volunteer councillers for the church found one of his relatives who was willing to take him in, but talking with the guy really had a profound effect on my life. Now most of the insane/drugged up types aren't like him, of course, since he had an amazingly hard work ethic to counterbalance his fucked up-ness, but it's possible.

Then there are the criminal drop-out types, who I have no sympathy for. These are the guys who had a good life, but fucked it up themselves, by acting like jackasses in school and refusing to do work and generally wanted to live the thug life. Welcome to the thug life, asshole. These people are the ones that expect life to be handed to them, because they feel they deserve it, which is bullshit. These ones tend to be made out to be the whole by politicians and right-wing speeches that want to cut all support for the poor, which is bullshit too.

Finally, there are the others. These people are normal sane individuals, who fell through the cracks of the system and lost their homes and livelihood to it. Yes, they do exist. They are another reason why I volunteer, because it's very hard not to see yourself in them. Most right-wing politicans and speech writers don't seem to think that they exist, or pretend they don't. Often enough, these people have families, and are on the streets because they got laid off from their job, couldn't get rehired, and simply could not support their families on welfare alone. Their situation is frightening, because when I was younger, it was nearly my families situation. When I was six, my dad got laid off from Westinghouse Electric. It took my dad two years to get hired by the Bulk Mail Center, because while he had the skills, he didn't have the diploma (he largely learned mechanics and electronics in the Navy, which employers didn't seem to consider an education). My father and mother took three jobs between them to make ends meet (having two kids is very expensive), and nearly didn't make the ends meet. It was programs like welfare and the free-lunch programs at school that seriously helped keep us off the street (ones that many right-wingers want to make go away, thinking that if you are on them, you must be lazy people who want to leech off the system and not work), but we got lucky. Alot of families that get into the same situation we did don't make it. Of course, they tend to get off the streets much swifter than the above two types, but they exist nonetheless, and a valid reason for charity by themselves.

jegs2 · Post by **jegs2** » 2003-04-15 02:55pm

You've done a good job it pointing out the stark difference between individuals who cannot work and those who will not work.

Gil Hamilton · Post by **Gil Hamilton** » 2003-04-15 03:08pm

jegs2 wrote:You've done a good job it pointing out the stark difference between individuals who cannot work and those who will not work.

I've met quite a few of both. I've got no sympathy for the latter, but quite alot for the former, and end up serving meals for both.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-04-15 03:34pm

Gil Hamilton wrote:
jegs2 wrote:You've done a good job it pointing out the stark difference between individuals who cannot work and those who will not work.
I've met quite a few of both. I've got no sympathy for the latter, but quite alot for the former, and end up serving meals for both.

Where do you live? The American welfare system is not as generous as the Canadian one. In Canada, I see no reason for someone to be out on the street if he doesn't want to be.

Gil Hamilton · Post by **Gil Hamilton** » 2003-04-15 03:42pm

Darth Wong wrote:Where do you live? The American welfare system is not as generous as the Canadian one. In Canada, I see no reason for someone to be out on the street if he doesn't want to be.

Pittsburgh, PA, USA and you are right, it's not as generous.

jegs2 · Post by **jegs2** » 2003-04-15 03:51pm

Gil Hamilton wrote:Pittsburgh, PA, USA and you are right, it's not as generous.

Know this is off-topic, but you told me on SB that you were thinking about joining the USCG. Do you still intend to do so?

Gil Hamilton · Post by **Gil Hamilton** » 2003-04-15 03:58pm

jegs2 wrote:
Gil Hamilton wrote:Pittsburgh, PA, USA and you are right, it's not as generous.
Know this is off-topic, but you told me on SB that you were thinking about joining the USCG. Do you still intend to do so?

Yes, I do, in fact, I've got the form requesting the ASVAB test on my refrigerator right now, though I'm more worried about my medical history, as I've got a history of migraines.

jegs2 · Post by **jegs2** » 2003-04-15 04:01pm

Gil Hamilton wrote:Yes, I do, in fact, I've got the form requesting the ASVAB test on my refrigerator right now, though I'm more worried about my medical history, as I've got a history of migraines.

Hopefully, those are just based on nerves. As I get time, I'll PM you some links about the Coast Guard.

Gil Hamilton · Post by **Gil Hamilton** » 2003-04-15 04:11pm

jegs2 wrote:Hopefully, those are just based on nerves. As I get time, I'll PM you some links about the Coast Guard.

We never found out what they were based on, except that for some reason I tended to get them in high school and on weekends. *shrug* It's just that the recruiters made it clear that migraines are one of the things that could get me disqualified from service.

And thanks a ton, any information you can give me would be great.

Post by **Lagmonster** » 2003-04-15 04:13pm

Gil Hamilton wrote:
jegs2 wrote:Hopefully, those are just based on nerves. As I get time, I'll PM you some links about the Coast Guard.
We never found out what they were based on, except that for some reason I tended to get them in high school and on weekends. *shrug* It's just that the recruiters made it clear that migraines are one of the things that could get me disqualified from service.

I used to get migraines based on stress. All the time, after adrenaline rushes, stress of any kind, I'd get nauseous and headachy. If that's the case with you, you can curb it with Gravol or lots of regular exercise.

Raoul Duke, Jr. · Post by **Raoul Duke, Jr.** » 2003-04-15 04:42pm

Gil Hamilton wrote:...Finally, there are the others. These people are normal sane individuals, who fell through the cracks of the system and lost their homes and livelihood to it.

What may disturb or unsettle you is that many homeless of this last type look literally no different from someone who has a home, specifically because they want to get hired and get off the street, and looking like the homeless prevents you from getting away from that life.