HOW DO YOU RATE ANIME UNIVERSE TO THE MAIN SCIFI UNIVERSE

SF: discuss futuristic sci-fi series, ideas, and crossovers.

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HOW DO YOU RATE ANIME UNIVERSE TO THE MAIN SCIFI UNIVERSE

Post by goten »

HOW DO SHIPS FROM (STARBLAZERS) LIKE THE EARTH DEFENCE FORCE
BATTLESHIPS,ANDROMEDA,ARIZONA,YAMATO(ARGO),OR OTHRERS FROM ROBOTECH,GUNDUM RATE AGAINST BABYLON 5,STARWARS,STAR TREK,FARSCAPE

THINGS LIKE WEAPONS, ARMOR, SHILDS, DRIVE SYSTEMS

like shock cannons vs phazers/ wavemotion gun vs planet killer beam
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Preliminary ratings

Post by Patrick Degan »

goten wrote:HOW DO SHIPS FROM (STARBLAZERS) LIKE THE EARTH DEFENCE FORCE BATTLESHIPS, ANDROMEDA,ARIZONA,YAMATO(ARGO),OR OTHRERS FROM ROBOTECH,GUNDUM RATE AGAINST BABYLON 5,STARWARS,STAR TREK,FARSCAPE

THINGS LIKE WEAPONS, ARMOR, SHILDS, DRIVE SYSTEMS

like shock cannons vs phazers/ wavemotion gun vs planet killer beam
Hmm...

Let's start with Starblazers/Uchu Senkan Yamato:

The Argo/Yamato relies upon armour and its unique asteroid-ring defence system to protect the ship from enemy laser and missile fire, though the ring is unavailable when the ship is not within an asteroid field. The Argo seems to be structured around pressurised compartments suspended within a largely empty outer hull which forms the armour protection as well as the body which enables the ship to land and navigate in water. With empty space between most of the pressure body and the outer hull, a large number of hits have to be scored before internal compartments are breached —though the most crew-vulnerable areas are of course located at the main bridge, the navigational bridge, and the underside assault pod.

The dumbest aspect of the Argo's design is the single launch/landing hatch located on the underside of the hull. A weakness which Leader Desslok exploited to devestating effect in his attack upon the Star Force within Earth/Luna space in Series II

The shock-cannons —blast-effect weapons— appear to be able to shatter asteroidal masses of about 10-50 metres in diametre. The wave-motion gun appears able to shatter asteroidal masses of about 5-10km in diametre, which would put it in the megaton-range of effective yield; somewhat more upscale in power than the Main Gun mounted aboard the Excalibur. The rest of her weaponry consists of batteries of kinetic slug-throwers and missile launchers.

However, the Argo is also protected by the most powerful character and mystical/luck shields ever observed in any warship —in addition to the uncanny penchant of her command crew to attract the favour of space goddesses and the respect of honourable opponnents who are subsequently turned as allies. The fact that the ship also embodies the soul of the ancient Yamato warrior nation adds yet another layer of spiritual defence. 8)

The EDS Andromeda and EDS Arizona have similar weaponry and drive, but lack the paranormal protections which encompass the Star Force, of course.

The Starblazers FTL system is somewhat similar to the starburst drive in Farscape —involving a more or less instantaneous translocation from point A to point B irrespective of the intervening spatial distances involved. Limited at first to jumps of a thousand lightyears a day, the Argo received an improved hyperjump system as of the movie Be Forever Yamato which enabled jumps of several thousands of lightyears in one go.

Robotech:

I have only detailed knowledge of the ships and events of Macross, so only a partial analysis is available here.

The Zentradi/Meltrandi main beam weapons appear to be of megaton-range in power (Macross: Do You Remember Love?) and their ships and systems are constructed of organic technology. The system appears able to alter itself to match the technologies which surround it: hence the SDF 1 becoming considerably more mechanical in structure. Zentradi hyperspatial fold drives involve an indeterminate travel time in hyperspace, but appear able to cross any interstellar distance within a short time span. The Zentradi and Meltrandi can field fleets of many thousands of ships along with a large command battlestation which is also fold-capable. In the movie Macross: Do You Remember Love? the firepower of the Zentradi and Meltrandi fleets deployed to recover the battlefortress depopulated Earth and thoroughly devestated the surface in the resulting orbital bombardment which was a side-effect of their own crossfire.

The SDF is crippled due to the loss of its own hyperspace fold system, which vanished when the battlefortress made an unplanned jump from deep within Earth's gravity well and reappeared slightly beyond the orbit of Pluto. Her reaction-thrust engines are no more capable than those of the UN Space Agency vessels, and the SDF's return to Earth involved a slow crawl across four billion kilometres of space taking over a year to accomplish. It is capable of deploying a powerful beam weapon (itself a Zentradi main cannon), but must reconfigure the structure of the ship to link the gun to the reactor feeds. The Valkyrie fighters are capable of transforming into independently manoeuverable battlemachines for ground combat, but mount weapons not much more advanced than contemporary jet fighter craft of our time —machine cannon and missiles.

Gundam Universe:

Of all the SF universes depicted in movies/TV, Gundam is perhaps the most realistic i.e. the one which depicts the most likely future of man in space. Humanity has no FTL travel, no exotic technologies such as energy shields, artificial gravity or teleportation, no contact with alien races, no extrasolar colonies. Man's civilisation is entirely contained within the boundaries of our own solar system, with artificial space colonies located around every planet and in asteroidal and cometary orbits (all of which rely on rotational gravity for the survival of the populations) as well as colonies within pressure domes located on Mars, Luna, Pluto, Charon, and the Gallilean moons around Jupiter and Saturn. The spaceships are all reaction-drive and do not even have rotational gravity. The fighter craft and Gundam mecha are mostly armed with missiles and slug-throwers. There are some energy weapons, but none which can pump out energies greater than kiloton-range blasts. The most powerful weapons in the Gundam universe are thermonuclear warheads not much different than what we have today.

None of these civilisations could withstand an assault mounted by the Empire. The Starblazers cultures and the alien races in Robotech/Macross could give a fight to the military forces of Star Trek, (probable victory) Babylon 5, (victory against Earth Alliance, the Narn Regime and Centauri Republic) and Farscape. The Gundam civilisation could possibly survive a defensive war against the Earth Alliance or the Narn Regime from Babylon 5, but not against the Centauri or Minbari.
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Post by Sea Skimmer »

Don’t post in all caps. People will think you some idiot troll, or just very stupid and annoying, which does not appear to be the case.
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Post by septesix »

Xeelee spank them all silly...... :twisted:
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Post by Anarchist Bunny »

I didn't even read what you posted, just saw it was all caps.

Your a fucking moron.
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Post by Darth_Shinji »

While Patrick Degan is straigh on the mark on most of the stuff I know about. He is mistaking on robotech/macross weapon range. One planet was dbzed i 27 shots. and another planet was destroyed in two volleys. These atleast puts some on their weapons in the tt range.

Here are a few more anime races that kick ass.

Gunbuster: By the end of the series, human ships can ftl jump atleast close to the center of the galaxy in one jump. Thier weapons can destroy enemy creatures that mature in stars (and an unknown number of the humans weapons can destroy a planet). And their sub-light speed is 98.9 the speed of light. The humans also devolop the black-hole bomb, that made a black-hole that devored the star cluster in the center of the galaxy, and alot of the arms. The bad-guys also win the award for the largest fleets ever (19 billion, that we know of).

I'll post more latter.
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Post by Eleas »

anarchistbunny wrote:I didn't even read what you posted, just saw it was all caps.

Your a fucking moron.
softly. Maybe he/she's just new to the Internet.
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Post by Totenkopf »

Umm... whatever the outcome is, both the anime and "real sci fi" ships will promptly turn on you and blow you to hell for posting ALLCAPS.
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Are you sure?

Post by Patrick Degan »

Darth_Shinji wrote:While Patrick Degan is straigh on the mark on most of the stuff I know about. He is mistaking on robotech/macross weapon range. One planet was dbzed i 27 shots. and another planet was destroyed in two volleys. These at least puts some on their weapons in the tt range.
Hmm... I don't quite remember the weapons in Robotech/Macross being that powerful. Certainly they were not that powerful in Macross 84 and I have that movie in my library. Although, I admit that it's been years since I've seen Robotech (not since its initial syndication broadcast, in fact), and I've never seen Robotech II, Macross II or Macross Plus for that matter.
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Post by Anarchist Bunny »

Eleas wrote:
anarchistbunny wrote:I didn't even read what you posted, just saw it was all caps.

Your a fucking moron.
softly. Maybe he/she's just new to the Internet.
Eh, I used to play starcraft and diablo 2, alot of pent-up rage about all capzors
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Re: Are you sure?

Post by Darth_Shinji »

Patrick Degan wrote:
Darth_Shinji wrote:While Patrick Degan is straigh on the mark on most of the stuff I know about. He is mistaking on robotech/macross weapon range. One planet was dbzed i 27 shots. and another planet was destroyed in two volleys. These at least puts some on their weapons in the tt range.
Hmm... I don't quite remember the weapons in Robotech/Macross being that powerful. Certainly they were not that powerful in Macross 84 and I have that movie in my library. Although, I admit that it's been years since I've seen Robotech (not since its initial syndication broadcast, in fact), and I've never seen Robotech II, Macross II or Macross Plus for that matter.
What is macross 84? I have episodes of perfect collection, and they clearly show one world BDZ in 27 shots, and another called planet palmer (in both versions, macross robotech) complealty destroied in two volleys.


Also I've looked over an episode guide on Yamanto and I've come to doubt your estimation of Yamanto weapons... at least the wave gun. Its said to have destroied a conteneint, huge artifical sun, and entire fleets. There are also cannons in the latter seasons capapable of destroying planets, and quite a few planet destroying bombs and missles. They even say in the series that the gamilons in the first season had destroied a planet in our solar-system, before the show began.
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Post by Eleas »

anarchistbunny wrote:
Eleas wrote:
anarchistbunny wrote:I didn't even read what you posted, just saw it was all caps.

Your a fucking moron.
softly. Maybe he/she's just new to the Internet.
Eh, I used to play starcraft and diablo 2, alot of pent-up rage about all capzors
Well OK then. For a moment there I almost thought he stole your batteries or something. :)
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Re: Are you sure?

Post by Patrick Degan »

Darth_Shinji wrote:What is macross 84? I have episodes of perfect collection, and they clearly show one world BDZ in 27 shots, and another called planet palmer (in both versions, macross robotech) complealty destroied in two volleys.
Macross '84: Do You Remember Love was a movie remake of the original Macross television series. Essentially the same story compressed into two and a half hours, it was done with (then) state of the art animation and beautifully rendered as well. The character and tech designs for the Zentradi were slightly changed to reflect a completely organic technology. As in the original seriers (predating the Robotech modification/combination), the term "protoculture" referred to a pre-militaristic civilisation instead of a bioenergy source. Among other differences: Roy Fokker was killed, and the 50,000 civilians aboard the battlefortress were the sole survivors of the human race after Earth was devestated in the fighting between the Zentradi and Meltrandi (the females)
Also I've looked over an episode guide on Yamanto and I've come to doubt your estimation of Yamanto weapons... at least the wave gun. Its said to have destroied a conteneint, huge artifical sun, and entire fleets. There are also cannons in the latter seasons capapable of destroying planets, and quite a few planet destroying bombs and missles. They even say in the series that the gamilons in the first season had destroied a planet in our solar-system, before the show began.
The "floating continent" was a large asteroid occupying a very low orbit within the upper levels of the Jovian atmosphere. The visuals show a mass which is clearly considerably smaller than a continent. The term is inaccurate to say the least —a reason why dialogue is not considered the most reliable source of information over visuals.

The artificial sun at Balan, where a major Gamilon base was located, was a fusion satellite located in a fixed geostationary orbit over the site of the base complex itself. It was within very close range of the planet and very clearly a smaller body than Balan itself, but was still much larger than the Argo.

I know all about Minerva, the planet destroyed by the Gamilons during their first incursion into our star system as related in the series. However, it is quite likely that Minerva was a small planet, probably with less diametre and mass than Pluto and its moon Charon. Also, the Gamilons may have employed multiple weapon strikes to achieve the destruction of the body in question. The task would not have required the amount of energy expended to destroy a terrestial-sized world; particularly if a large proportion of its mass was cometary ice and frozen gases.

As for the ability of the wave-motion gun to destroy whole planets, the only thing which comes even close to that in terms of canon visuals was found in the movie Final Yamato and the "planets" in question were quite small in proportion with the width of the wave beam itself. This suggests asteroids rather than planets.

As for "destroying whole fleets"... One such incident occurred in Series II. The "fleet" was a formation of five Comet Empire missile cruisers under the command of one Gen. Tormack which were stupidly bunched together into a tight formation, with the other ships being affected by the detonation of the vessel hit directly by the wave beam. A similar incident occurred later that series when the Argo was attacked by a formation of cruisers at planet Broumis on her way back to Earth, and again the ships were bunched together in relatively tight formation. The third such incident occurred in the movie Be Forever Yamato but an additional mechanism involving the interaction of the wave beam with the energy fields used in the false-Earth projection of Generalissimo Skaldart's space station was involved in the destruction of a formation of Dark Nebula Empire warships.
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Re: Are you sure?

Post by Darth_Shinji »

Patrick Degan wrote:
Darth_Shinji wrote:What is macross 84? I have episodes of perfect collection, and they clearly show one world BDZ in 27 shots, and another called planet palmer (in both versions, macross robotech) complealty destroied in two volleys.
Macross '84: Do You Remember Love was a movie remake of the original Macross television series. Essentially the same story compressed into two and a half hours, it was done with (then) state of the art animation and beautifully rendered as well. The character and tech designs for the Zentradi were slightly changed to reflect a completely organic technology. As in the original seriers (predating the Robotech modification/combination), the term "protoculture" referred to a pre-militaristic civilisation instead of a bioenergy source. Among other differences: Roy Fokker was killed, and the 50,000 civilians aboard the battlefortress were the sole survivors of the human race after Earth was devestated in the fighting between the Zentradi and Meltrandi (the females).
Okay. I've seen that as Clash (and can't wait to see it as remember love).
Also I've looked over an episode guide on Yamanto and I've come to doubt your estimation of Yamanto weapons... at least the wave gun. Its said to have destroied a conteneint, huge artifical sun, and entire fleets. There are also cannons in the latter seasons capapable of destroying planets, and quite a few planet destroying bombs and missles. They even say in the series that the gamilons in the first season had destroied a planet in our solar-system, before the show began.
The "floating continent" was a large asteroid occupying a very low orbit within the upper levels of the Jovian atmosphere. The visuals show a mass which is clearly considerably smaller than a continent. The term is inaccurate to say the least —a reason why dialogue is not considered the most reliable source of information over visuals.
I though something like that had occured, but in some instances dialuge is above visuals, If called a content in both versions and thier is no way of accurate guaging its size, consider it a content (they is a minuinm limit I belive). Their is no way in some instances of accuratly judging these in cartoons. Remeber, when you are looking at something from a distance it is smaller looking.
The artificial sun at Balan, where a major Gamilon base was located, was a fusion satellite located in a fixed geostationary orbit over the site of the base complex itself. It was within very close range of the planet and very clearly a smaller body than Balan itself, but was still much larger than the Argo.
How did the beam affect it? Did it vaprize the sun or caused it to explode?
I know all about Minerva, the planet destroyed by the Gamilons during their first incursion into our star system as related in the series. However, it is quite likely that Minerva was a small planet, probably with less diametre and mass than Pluto and its moon Charon. Also, the Gamilons may have employed multiple weapon strikes to achieve the destruction of the body in question. The task would not have required the amount of energy expended to destroy a terrestial-sized world; particularly if a large proportion of its mass was cometary ice and frozen gases.
Thier is a limit to the size of a planet (I think plouto's it) an even pluto would take tt scale damage.
As for the ability of the wave-motion gun to destroy whole planets, the only thing which comes even close to that in terms of canon visuals was found in the movie Final Yamato and the "planets" in question were quite small in proportion with the width of the wave beam itself. This suggests asteroids rather than planets.
It says the main ship at the end of the second season was destroying/ going to destroy the planet earht. Thier is also a movie were a fake earth is destroyed. And in the absence of something to measure it dialog has to be taken into consideration.
As for "destroying whole fleets"... One such incident occurred in Series II. The "fleet" was a formation of five Comet Empire missile cruisers under the command of one Gen. Tormack which were stupidly bunched together into a tight formation, with the other ships being affected by the detonation of the vessel hit directly by the wave beam. A similar incident occurred later that series when the Argo was attacked by a formation of cruisers at planet Broumis on her way back to Earth, and again the ships were bunched together in relatively tight formation. The third such incident occurred in the movie Be Forever Yamato but an additional mechanism involving the interaction of the wave beam with the energy fields used in the false-Earth projection of Generalissimo Skaldart's space station was involved in the destruction of a formation of Dark Nebula Empire warships.
True I can't fight that.

But wouldn't some of the weird gizmo's in the series also be taken into consideration? The force shields that detonate missles for example.


And what about the hyperion bomb or the missle that was slowly killing the sun in the third season?.
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Yamato

Post by Patrick Degan »

Darth_Shinji wrote:
Patrick Degan wrote:Macross '84: Do You Remember Love was a movie remake of the original Macross television series. Essentially the same story compressed into two and a half hours, it was done with (then) state of the art animation and beautifully rendered as well. The character and tech designs for the Zentradi were slightly changed to reflect a completely organic technology. As in the original seriers (predating the Robotech modification/combination), the term "protoculture" referred to a pre-militaristic civilisation instead of a bioenergy source. Among other differences: Roy Fokker was killed, and the 50,000 civilians aboard the battlefortress were the sole survivors of the human race after Earth was devestated in the fighting between the Zentradi and Meltrandi (the females).
Okay. I've seen that as Clash (and can't wait to see it as remember love).
Clash Of The Bionoids—PUKE![/i] You have my sympathies for having that butchered-up abortion as your only version of M84. You'll have to look a bit for the original, but you might find "unofficial" copies floating around at convention video tables.

I though something like that had occured, but in some instances dialuge is above visuals, If called a content in both versions and thier is no way of accurate guaging its size, consider it a content (they is a minuinm limit I belive). Their is no way in some instances of accuratly judging these in cartoons. Remeber, when you are looking at something from a distance it is smaller looking.


Dialogue never supercedes visuals. The term is inaccurate in terms of comparison to a real continent on a terrestial planet, but as a colloquialism to describe the only land mass to be found at a gas giant planet...

The artificial sun at Balan, where a major Gamilon base was located, was a fusion satellite located in a fixed geostationary orbit over the site of the base complex itself. It was within very close range of the planet and very clearly a smaller body than Balan itself, but was still much larger than the Argo.
How did the beam affect it? Did it vaprize the sun or caused it to explode?[/quote]

The wave beam disrupted the structure of the artificial sun, displacing its mass omnidirectionally. The base was destroyed by a rain of molten debris which penetrated to the arsenal, touching off the explosives stored therein.

I know all about Minerva, the planet destroyed by the Gamilons during their first incursion into our star system as related in the series. However, it is quite likely that Minerva was a small planet, probably with less diametre and mass than Pluto and its moon Charon. Also, the Gamilons may have employed multiple weapon strikes to achieve the destruction of the body in question. The task would not have required the amount of energy expended to destroy a terrestial-sized world; particularly if a large proportion of its mass was cometary ice and frozen gases.
Thier is a limit to the size of a planet (I think plouto's it) an even pluto would take tt scale damage.[/quote]

True enough. I merely pointed out that it would take less energy than would be required to destroy a terrestial sized world. No single starship in Gamilon service has weaponry packing that kind of punch, but nothing rules out action by a large number of ship-mounted weapons.

It says the main ship at the end of the second season was destroying/ going to destroy the planet earht.


Ah yes, you're referring to Prince Zordar's supership, deployed in the last episode of Series II. The supership mounted a large energy cannon which was employed to destroy ground targets, but the blasts delivered were not much more powerful than megaton-range weaponry. Commander Todo, head of the Earth Defence Force, was within a reinforced bunker near his headquarters when one of the blasts struck the Earth capital. He survived the blast and emerged out into the ruins of the city afterward.

Thier is also a movie were a fake earth is destroyed. And in the absence of something to measure it dialog has to be taken into consideration


That was the false-Earth projection overlaying the structure of Lord Skaldart's space station I mentioned, from Be Forever Yamato. Only the surface projection was burned away, leaving the actual structure of the complex intact, and in that incident, there was some sort of interaction between the wave beam and whatever forcefields were in use to maintain the projection.

But wouldn't some of the weird gizmo's in the series also be taken into consideration?


Of course. But this cannot be taken into account when judging the power of the sole weapon, such as the wave-motion gun.

And what about the hyperion bomb or the missle that was slowly killing the sun in the third season?.


Hmm... the hyperion device falls more into the realm of specialised technology rather than weaponry which is nominally deployed on operational ships of the line. And as I recall, the missile in question (from Series III) induced a slow-motion effect which initiated the premature expansion into a red giant. A side effect of the weapon's detonation after it had missed the target it had been fired at, which I think was a Bolar Commonwealth battleship? It would be informative to have seen the effect of the weapon against a hardened target, as well as a theory as to the mechanism by which it altered the sun's core temperature.
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Re: HOW DO YOU RATE ANIME UNIVERSE TO THE MAIN SCIFI UNIVERS

Post by RayCav of ASVS »

goten wrote:HOW DO SHIPS FROM (STARBLAZERS) LIKE THE EARTH DEFENCE FORCE
BATTLESHIPS,ANDROMEDA,ARIZONA,YAMATO(ARGO),OR OTHRERS FROM ROBOTECH,GUNDUM RATE AGAINST BABYLON 5,STARWARS,STAR TREK,FARSCAPE

THINGS LIKE WEAPONS, ARMOR, SHILDS, DRIVE SYSTEMS

like shock cannons vs phazers/ wavemotion gun vs planet killer beam
YOU KNOW, MAYBE IT WOULD BE A GOOD IDEA TO LEARN HOW TO OPERATE THE FUCKING CAPS LOCK BUTTON BEFORE YOU START POSTING!
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Post by goten »

Sorry about the all caps it was my frist post in a forum,give me a break it will not happen again
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Post by Master of Ossus »

Most Anime series that I have seen fall just above Star Trek in terms of power. Occasionally, one will be as "weak" as B5, but for the most part they appear to be in the B5-ST range, or a little higher. I have never yet seen one that appears to be as powerful as Star Wars, but that does not mean that it does not exist. I just don't watch much Anime. And I have never seen Clash of the Bionoids.
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Post by Lord of the Farce »

Judging by Macross Plus and what I have seen of Gundam Wing (I actually only got those a few of days ago, on DVD), while they have incredible maneuverability, their weapons are typically much less than a magnitude better than their modern day equivalents, and if you try to put any of them against something like a Star Destroyer then you are just wasting your time.
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Welcome aboard, Goten

Post by Patrick Degan »

goten wrote:Sorry about the all caps it was my frist post in a forum,give me a break it will not happen again
Think nothing of it. It won't take you long to pick up on the finer points of netiquette with practise. 8)

In the meantime, welcome aboard (if I may be so presumptuous).
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Post by VF5SS »

You won't believe how good "Do You Remember Love" is, Shinji. Without the cuts its like a whole other movie :)
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Post by starfury »

welcome to stardestoryer.net goten, have a good time
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Post by Shadowhawk »

Most Anime series that I have seen fall just above Star Trek in terms of power. Occasionally, one will be as "weak" as B5, but for the most part they appear to be in the B5-ST range, or a little higher. I have never yet seen one that appears to be as powerful as Star Wars, but that does not mean that it does not exist. I just don't watch much Anime.
Clearly.
The Jurai from Tenchi could smack The Empire down effortlessly.

The Nirvana and the Vandreads from Vandread could put a serious hurt on the Empire (they compressed and ignited a large gas giant into a star, for example; their shields were withstanding gigapascels in the gas giant), but don't have the numbers or raw endurance to take on everything in the Empire.

And, of course, DBZ would bitchslap anything short of the Culture or select comic book characters.
Shadowhawk
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Post by consequences »

Dbz characters would get eaten alive by Fist of the North Star, and show no ability to detect technological energy anyway. The Death Star puts out far more energy than every combatant in the Frieza battle combined. Besides which, every Dbz character other than Vegeta, Piccolo, and Mirai Trunks is a complete moron anyway, those three being merely very dumb.
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Post by Darth_Shinji »

VF5SS wrote:You won't believe how good "Do You Remember Love" is, Shinji. Without the cuts its like a whole other movie :)
I know. So many people have told me that. I've herard a rumor It will be rereleased, so all I can do is pray. :D
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