Is the trinity a pantheon?

Rye · Post by **Rye** » 2003-04-19 02:41pm

I was thinking last night about how hindus say they are monotheistic, yet have a pantheon of gods.

They say that all the gods in the pantheon are just different aspects or faces of the one god....now this make me wonder...does the holy trinity count as a pantheon?

paladin · Post by **paladin** » 2003-04-19 02:56pm

No, because in Christianity it is understood that God the father, God the son, and God the holy spirit are different aspects of the same entity. It considered an article of faith meaning that there is no logical way to understand it.

Rye · Post by **Rye** » 2003-04-19 03:06pm

paladin wrote:No, because in Christianity it is understood that God the father, God the son, and God the holy spirit are different aspects of the same entity. It considered an article of faith meaning that there is no logical way to understand it.

So how is that any different to the hindu pantheon?

Sir Sirius · Post by **Sir Sirius** » 2003-04-19 03:06pm

The son of God is the same as the son of man; the son of man is the same as the son of God. God, the father, is the same as Christ, the son; Christ, the son, is the same as God, the father. This language may appear confused to unbelievers, but Christians will readily understand it.
-- Voltaire

Rye · Post by **Rye** » 2003-04-19 03:09pm

Sir Sirius wrote:The son of God is the same as the son of man; the son of man is the same as the son of God. God, the father, is the same as Christ, the son; Christ, the son, is the same as God, the father. This language may appear confused to unbelievers, but Christians will readily understand it.
-- Voltaire

Was that your 666th post?

The Duchess of Zeon · Post by **The Duchess of Zeon** » 2003-04-19 03:17pm

Rye wrote:
paladin wrote:No, because in Christianity it is understood that God the father, God the son, and God the holy spirit are different aspects of the same entity. It considered an article of faith meaning that there is no logical way to understand it.
So how is that any different to the hindu pantheon?

The concept of the Trinity is similiar to the Platonic concept of the Logos.

Sir Sirius · Post by **Sir Sirius** » 2003-04-19 03:24pm

Rye wrote:
Sir Sirius wrote:The son of God is the same as the son of man; the son of man is the same as the son of God. God, the father, is the same as Christ, the son; Christ, the son, is the same as God, the father. This language may appear confused to unbelievers, but Christians will readily understand it.
-- Voltaire
Was that your 666th post?

Yes, LOL! The tradition of making christian bashing post 666 continues, yet again as a result of a total accident. Third in a row.

Johonebesus · Post by **Johonebesus** » 2003-04-19 05:43pm

The difference between the Trinity and pagan ideas of one god in many guises is that the three persons of the Trinity are separate persons but of one being. In Neo-Platonic religions the various gods were like costumes worn by the one god, or different aspects of one personality, like a man wearing masks. Such an interpretation of the Trinity is a heresy called modelism. The Christian God is three persons who are separate entities but are not separate entities.

As for Hindus, personality is for them an illusion. All living things are part of Brahmin, gods and humans alike. That's not exactly monotheism, for men and animals and plants and molds all share the same divine elements with the gods. It's not that there is one god as much as there is one thing; every discrete thing in the universe, and the universe itself, is an illusion and in essence shares unity in Brahmin.

jegs2 · Post by **jegs2** » 2003-04-19 08:15pm

The best analogy I've yet heard for the Trinity is the shamrock, which is one leaf, but it has three distinct heads. Nelson's Bible Dictionary explains it thusly:

TRINITY

The coexistence of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit in the unity of the Godhead (divine nature or essence). The doctrine of the trinity means that within the being and activity of the one God there are three distinct persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Although the word trinity does not appear in the Bible, the "trinitarian formula" is mentioned in the Great Commission <Matt. 28:19> and in the benediction of the apostle Paul's Second Epistle to the Corinthians <2 Cor. 13:14>.
God revealed Himself as one to the Israelites: "Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one!" <Deut. 6:4>. This was a significant religious truth because the surrounding nations worshiped many Gods and had fallen into idolatry, worshiping the creation rather than the true Creator <Rom. 1:18-25>. "But when the fullness of the time had come," Paul wrote <Gal. 4:4>, "God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law." In the New Testament God revealed that He is not only one but a family of persons-- an eternal, inexhaustible, and dynamic triune family of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, who are one in will and purpose, love and righteousness.
The relationship of Father and Son is prominent in the gospels because Jesus, the eternal Son who takes on human flesh, is most visible to us as He strikes a responsive chord through the Father-Son relationship. All the while the Holy Spirit is in the background, serving as our eyes of faith. The unity of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is portrayed by Jesus' trinitarian teaching <John 14--16>. This truth is expressed in the total ministry of Jesus as recorded in all four gospels as well as in the rest of the New Testament. The triune family cooperates as one in bringing the lost person home again into a redeemed family of believers.
The most distinctive characteristic of the persons of the triune family is their selfless love for one another. Each esteems and defers to the other in a way that makes the original family of the trinity a model for the Christian family of believers in the church.
The Father gives all authority to the Son and bears witness to Him, as does Jesus to Himself <John 8:18>. Yet the Son claims nothing for Himself; He gives all glory to the Father who has sent Him <John 12:49-50>. The key to unlocking the mystery of the trinity is to observe how the persons of the triune family give themselves to one another in selfless love. They are always at one another's disposal.
The Father serves the Son; the Son serves the Father; Father and Son defer to the Holy Spirit, who in turn, serves and defers to the Father and Son in a oneness that is eternally dynamic and inexhaustible. The mutual love of the triune persons spills over into the creation and is seen in their generous cooperation in saving the lost <John 14:15-17,25-26>.
Since God is the original family-in-unity, so Christians are urged by Jesus and the apostles to imitate the divine family in the believing fellowship, as Jesus taught so clearly when He washed the disciples' feet <John 13:14-15>. The principal trait of the triune family is speaking the truth in love; this encourages a spirit of generosity among Christians as they reflect the divine family in calling the lost to come home.
The trinity was at work in the incarnation of Jesus, the Son of the Most High, as He was conceived in the womb of Mary by the power of the Holy Spirit <Luke 1:30-35>. At His baptism Jesus the Son received approval from the Father in the presence of the Holy Spirit <Luke 3:21-22>, fulfilling two Old Testament prophetic passages <Ps. 2:7; Is. 42:1>. The trinity was also present in the temptation, as Jesus, full of the Holy Spirit, was led by the Spirit for 40 days in the wilderness. The devil recognized Jesus as the Son of God <Luke 4:3>, but he tried to destroy the faithful relationship of the divine family.
In His preaching in the synagogue at Nazareth Jesus fulfilled <Isaiah 61:1-2>, claiming that "the Spirit of the Lord is upon Me" <Luke 4:18> and indicating that the triune family was at work in Him as the servant Son. At the transfiguration, the voice of the Father spoke again in approval of Jesus the Son to the innermost circle of disciples <Luke 9:35>.
Jesus rejoiced in the Holy Spirit and in the Father who had delivered all things to the Son <Luke 10:21-22>. He claimed to be acting in the place of God and through the power of the Holy Spirit, who is the "finger" of God <Matt. 12:28, Luke 11:20>. Jesus' cleansing of the Temple was a claim of identification with the house of God His Father <Luke 19:45-46> that paralleled His concern for being in His Father's house at a much younger age <Luke 2:41-51>.
Jesus witnessed further to His authority as He sent forth the disciples, following His resurrection, with the words, "Behold, I send the promise of My Father upon you" <Luke 24:49>. He also told them to wait until they were empowered by the Holy Spirit <Acts 1:5,8>. Jesus claimed His Sonship not only from David but from David's Lord <Matt. 22:42-45>, indicating His deity.
Following His resurrection, Jesus sent the disciples to baptize "in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" <Matt. 28:19>. The fulfillment of Jesus' prophecy as spokesman for the Father and the Holy Spirit <Acts 1:4-8> occurred at Pentecost. This continued throughout the Book of Acts when the Holy Spirit inspired Peter and the apostles to preach a trinitarian gospel of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit <Acts 2:32-33; 5:29-32; 10:38>.
Paul wrote from a sense of the triune family in Galatians, speaking often of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit <Gal. 3:13-14; 4:6; 5:5-6,22-24>. In Romans he used a threefold, trinitarian pattern to describe the plan of salvation <Rom. 1:18--3:20; 3:21--8:1; 8:2-30>. All the remaining New Testament books contain trinity teaching except James and 3 John.
The triune family is God's revelation of Himself as the ultimate truth about reality. This family is the original pattern from which God creates all the families of earth with their unity and diversity. The family of mankind, after losing its intimate relationship with the divine family at the Fall, is restored to fellowship by God's action. This happens when its members acknowledge the generosity originating in the Father, expressed by the Son, and energized by the Holy Spirit.
(from Nelson's Illustrated Bible Dictionary)
(Copyright (C) 1986, Thomas Nelson Publishers)

Here are some websites that attempt to explain the Trinity:
http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/ChristBear ... inity.html
http://www.arabicbible.com/islam/trinit.htm
http://www.free-gifts.com/The_Trinity.htm
http://www.regenerator.com/5.1/trinity.html
http://www.digitalsword.co.uk/trinity.htm

The Dark · Post by **The Dark** » 2003-04-19 11:18pm

Johonebesus wrote:As for Hindus, personality is for them an illusion. All living things are part of Brahmin, gods and humans alike. That's not exactly monotheism, for men and animals and plants and molds all share the same divine elements with the gods. It's not that there is one god as much as there is one thing; every discrete thing in the universe, and the universe itself, is an illusion and in essence shares unity in Brahmin.

This is called monism, the belief that all things are one.

Hethrir · Post by **Hethrir** » 2003-04-19 11:44pm

I think of the Trinity a bit like this. at home i am a son, at work an employee and socially a friend. i think of the Trinity the same way, the Father, Son and Holy Ghost (note AKJ definition, not spirit). They each have a purpose.

There is no use my employer calling me at home for a report, just like there is no use calling on Jesus for provision. we should pray to the Father (provider), in the name of Jesus (proxy) by the power of the Holy Ghost (enforcer).

...not that my analogy actually had direct comparisons :p

Johonebesus · Post by **Johonebesus** » 2003-04-20 12:34am

Hethrir wrote:I think of the Trinity a bit like this. at home i am a son, at work an employee and socially a friend. i think of the Trinity the same way, the Father, Son and Holy Ghost (note AKJ definition, not spirit). They each have a purpose.

There is no use my employer calling me at home for a report, just like there is no use calling on Jesus for provision. we should pray to the Father (provider), in the name of Jesus (proxy) by the power of the Holy Ghost (enforcer).

...not that my analogy actually had direct comparisons :p

And that is the heresy of modalism. According to the Church, God is not a single person serving different roles or modes, but is one being in three distinct persons, or three individuals sharing one essence. 1=3. That is one of the inherent and absolutely irrational mysteries of Christianity.

jegs2 · Post by **jegs2** » 2003-04-20 12:39am

Johonebesus wrote:And that is the heresy of modalism. According to the Church, God is not a single person serving different roles or modes, but is one being in three distinct persons, or three individuals sharing one essence. 1=3. That is one of the inherent and absolutely irrational mysteries of Christianity.

One cannot test the spiritual realm with the scientific method. Er, but if someone somehow does pull that off, please let me know.

Johonebesus · Post by **Johonebesus** » 2003-04-20 12:57am

Hethrir wrote:i think of the Trinity the same way, the Father, Son and Holy Ghost (note AKJ definition, not spirit).

May I ask why you felt the need to point out the use of ghost rather than spirit, and why you feel it is significant? I'm just curious.

Hethrir · Post by **Hethrir** » 2003-04-20 01:23am

I am a firm believer in AKJ and no other versions. Not to say you are going to hell if you read NIV

http://www.chick.com/information/biblev ... ivquiz.asp
is just one example of why i choose AKJ. If it specificly says Ghost(AKJ) rather than Spirit (all others) so i choose to quote it.

If you don't feel like clicking the link, it basically points out a few differences between NIV and AJK - some i consider rather large

just being pedantic, but i will consider the difference between Ghost and Spirit and their origins and get back to you.

Enforcer Talen · Post by **Enforcer Talen** » 2003-04-20 01:24am

of course trinity is a godess. cmon

Enforcer Talen · Post by **Enforcer Talen** » 2003-04-20 01:24am

Hethrir wrote:I am a firm believer in AKJ and no other versions. Not to say you are going to hell if you read NIV

http://www.chick.com/information/biblev ... ivquiz.asp
is just one example of why i choose AKJ. If it specificly says Ghost(AKJ) rather than Spirit (all others) so i choose to quote it.

If you don't feel like clicking the link, it basically points out a few differences between NIV and AJK - some i consider rather large

just being pedantic, but i will consider the difference between Ghost and Spirit and their origins and get back to you.

. . . wow. using chick as a source.

jegs2 · Post by **jegs2** » 2003-04-20 01:24am

Hethrir wrote:I am a firm believer in AKJ and no other versions. Not to say you are going to hell if you read NIV

http://www.chick.com/information/biblev ... ivquiz.asp
is just one example of why i choose AKJ. If it specificly says Ghost(AKJ) rather than Spirit (all others) so i choose to quote it.

If you don't feel like clicking the link, it basically points out a few differences between NIV and AJK - some i consider rather large

just being pedantic, but i will consider the difference between Ghost and Spirit and their origins and get back to you.

See my website for a cool little chart on the origins of the Bible:
http://www.geocities.com/grey_six/jay_and_sherri.html

Note: Yes, it's Geocities, so it'll be hard to read, but who am I to complain since the site is free...

Hethrir · Post by **Hethrir** » 2003-04-20 01:52am

That is a cool little chart!

Johonebesus · Post by **Johonebesus** » 2003-04-20 02:21am

Hethrir wrote:I am a firm believer in AKJ and no other versions. Not to say you are going to hell if you read NIV

http://www.chick.com/information/biblev ... ivquiz.asp
is just one example of why i choose AKJ. If it specificly says Ghost(AKJ) rather than Spirit (all others) so i choose to quote it.

If you don't feel like clicking the link, it basically points out a few differences between NIV and AJK - some i consider rather large

just being pedantic, but i will consider the difference between Ghost and Spirit and their origins and get back to you.

I don't want to seem rude, but you should never use Chick as a source. He is barely more Christian than Mormons. He says things that are factually untrue. I have not read enough of the NIV or the KJV to know exactly what differences there may be, but if Chick says sky is blue, I'll assume it is night. There are some people on this board that take glee in criticizing Christianity, but their critiques of Chicktracts are pretty much on the mark. Even Robertson and Falwell are tolerant and learned men next to Chick.

Now, if I haven't offended you too much, why do you love the KJV so much? What makes you so sure that it and it alone is the Word of God?
[/i][/u]

The Duchess of Zeon · Post by **The Duchess of Zeon** » 2003-04-20 02:52am

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15047a.htm

This page is up-to-date in terms of Catholic doctrine on the Trinity.

Sokar · Post by **Sokar** » 2003-04-20 03:00am

Most definatly not a pantheon, Catholic dogma is fairly strict as this entire argument damn near caused a massive internal schisim in the Church around the 1100's(IIRC).

Hethrir · Post by **Hethrir** » 2003-04-20 03:19am

Don't worry, i'm not cut, but if you look at that link, it shows some scriptures that are vastly different or missing in the NIV. Even if the guy is not always reliable, a direct comparison of those shows that there are major differences.

Johonebesus · Post by **Johonebesus** » 2003-04-20 03:27am

Hethrir wrote:Don't worry, i'm not cut, but if you look at that link, it shows some scriptures that are vastly different or missing in the NIV. Even if the guy is not always reliable, a direct comparison of those shows that there are major differences.

But why are you so sure that the King James is better than any of the several other translations? After all, there are more than just the two.

Superman · Post by **Superman** » 2003-04-20 03:46am

Well, how much did Constantine of Rome have to do with settling the nature of the Trinity debate? There were Bishops at the time that were definately against it. If Constantine, who was a practitioner of Roman pantheonism, decided that the trinity is truly a trinity, the it is possible.