Cap ships in Star Trek

Raziel · Post by **Raziel** » 2002-09-02 03:39am

I've heard the debate that ST has no proper capital ships, and I partly agree with it. TNG onwards, we see the ships acting like over-grown fighters or corvettes, doing all sorts of fancy maneuvres. When in mass fleet engagements, they all fly to point-blank range and dog-fight like fighters. No formations, no order, just the chaos of a massive melee (and one reason why SW would trounce them in a fleet engagement

).

When watching TWOK this evening, I noticed that the E-nil did none of this. Rather, it maneuvered slowly and ponderously... exactly as a capital ship would! It didn't twirl about with the Reliant in an intricate ballet of battle, it maneuvered slowly and traded broadsides with her. LIKE A CAP SHIP. Granted she was heavily damaged, but they supposedly had impulse drive, which would mean that they still had a significant amount of their sublight ability.

So why did B&B make the E-D nothing more than an overgrown fighter craft? Sheer idiocy, ignorance of TOS, or something more sinister?

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2002-09-02 03:44am

They wanted to emulate the kineticism of the fighter-heavy combat that is common in most sci-fi, but they didn't want to move away from the capship conventions of TOS. So they made capships that act like big overweight fighters, thus creating a bastardized half-assed middle ground.

DarkStar · Post by **DarkStar** » 2002-09-02 07:38am

. . . and, therefore, starships which will outmaneuver Star Wars vessels quite comfortably.

Post by **Vympel** » 2002-09-02 07:48am

That's true- Star Wars capital ships never demonstrate the maneuverability of Star Trek ships- however if you want to somehow argue the point that the multitude of weapons turrets on a Star Wars ships can't hit a ship thats 600m long and doesn't exactly have a SMIDGEN of the maneuverability of an X-Wing or TIE Fighter ....

Cpt_Frank · Post by **Cpt_Frank** » 2002-09-02 09:39am

I liked WOK combat. It had something submarine-ish.
I think sci-fi battles should more be like submarine battles in general.
(Tough I like SW's dreadnoughts blasting away at each other with their huge guns).

Post by **NecronLord** » 2002-09-02 09:44am

True darkstar, but the Fed ships have to be lucky hundred of times in a row, the wars ships only have to be lucky once...

Post by **Vympel** » 2002-09-02 09:47am

Bwahahah as long as its not like the combat from the Wing Commander movie (ahhhhhhhhhhh! the pain! the pain!) I'm easy- TOS movie combat (WOK only really) rocked- tension!

Lord of the Farce · Post by **Lord of the Farce** » 2002-09-02 10:01am

Having the proper equipment for a job is generally better than hybrids that tries to be good for a multitudes of jobs and end up failing in most. Though there are times where more versatility is a good thing, trying to give fighter-like manoeuvrability to +200 meter diameter targets (against that which can target 10 meter long objects with reasonable accuracy) rather than the ability to soak damage, is not.

RayCav of ASVS · Post by **RayCav of ASVS** » 2002-09-02 10:01am

DarkStar wrote:. . . and, therefore, starships which will outmaneuver Star Wars vessels quite comfortably.

Why am I not surprised?

RayCav of ASVS · Post by **RayCav of ASVS** » 2002-09-02 10:02am

Vympel wrote:That's true- Star Wars capital ships never demonstrate the maneuverability of Star Trek ships- however if you want to somehow argue the point that the multitude of weapons turrets on a Star Wars ships can't hit a ship thats 600m long and doesn't exactly have a SMIDGEN of the maneuverability of an X-Wing or TIE Fighter ....

I recommend you watch TESB again...it seems as if even a full blown ISD can run circles around the Enterprise-D

Post by **Vympel** » 2002-09-02 10:15am

I meant that ISDs have tremendous acceleration/speed capabilities but they have no need to wallow and bank and dive in space like TNG ships for no reason- they've got turrets

starfury · Post by **starfury** » 2002-09-02 10:15am

True darkstar, but the Fed ships have to be lucky hundred of times in a row, the wars ships only have to be lucky once...

very true, the imperial ship only need to hit the ST ship once and it's atomized, the ST ship however has the much harder job of trying to dodge all that weapon fire which can hit 10 meter targets quite easily.

Cpt_Frank · Post by **Cpt_Frank** » 2002-09-02 10:36am

Perhaps he thinks the SW ships will have to maneuver to target the ST ships? A ST ship can not make turns faster as a turret can swivel.

VF5SS · Post by **VF5SS** » 2002-09-02 10:41am

Those saucers will be like clay pidgeons on a clear summer's day.

PULL!

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-09-02 12:23pm

Ummm.... DarkStar, you realize that for targets that large maneuverability really amounts to nothing, don't you? Since an ISD has repeatedly demonstrated the ease with which it would hit objects the size of, say, a Constitution class vessel with comparable maneuverability to a small SW fighter, it is clear that maneuverability is essentially a non-issue during a conflict between ST and SW.

Darth Garden Gnome · Post by **Darth Garden Gnome** » 2002-09-02 01:36pm

Oh I'm sure he does. He juts likes to pop in and say "Hey ST is better at SW in this way, even though it is completly pointless, and I should have just kept my mouth shut!"

Behold the ignorance, and tremble.

Dark Primus · Post by **Dark Primus** » 2002-09-02 02:15pm

Master of Ossus wrote:Ummm.... DarkStar, you realize that for targets that large maneuverability really amounts to nothing, don't you? Since an ISD has repeatedly demonstrated the ease with which it would hit objects the size of, say, a Constitution class vessel with comparable maneuverability to a small SW fighter, it is clear that maneuverability is essentially a non-issue during a conflict between ST and SW.

True, but the turbolaser travels at a very slow speed, seen on screen, it would take time for the shot to travel to the targeted vessel if it positioned 50,000 kilometers away.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-09-02 02:16pm

The invisible, damage inducing portion of a TL propogates at the speed of light and does considerable damage by itself.

Raziel · Post by **Raziel** » 2002-09-02 02:21pm

Cpt_Frank wrote:I liked WOK combat. It had something submarine-ish.
I think sci-fi battles should more be like submarine battles in general.
(Tough I like SW's dreadnoughts blasting away at each other with their huge guns).

I think that's exactly what the producers of TOS had in mind, submarine combat. Remember in Balance of Terror, when the Enterprise rigs for silent running? The crew whispers! While rediculous in a space battle (I don't think I have to mention why), it's exactly what a sub crew would do when running silent, since a loud voice can give your position away.

Oh, and Darkstar, please don't pollute my threads with your inanity in the future. I rather like both SW and ST (well, TOS and I through VI), and I honestly don't care all that much about the Vs. debate. That said, I also know a logical arguement when I see one... IE the one where SW trounces ST without batting an eyelash.

Grand Admiral Thrawn · Post by **Grand Admiral Thrawn** » 2002-09-02 02:49pm

Dark Primus wrote:
Master of Ossus wrote:Ummm.... DarkStar, you realize that for targets that large maneuverability really amounts to nothing, don't you? Since an ISD has repeatedly demonstrated the ease with which it would hit objects the size of, say, a Constitution class vessel with comparable maneuverability to a small SW fighter, it is clear that maneuverability is essentially a non-issue during a conflict between ST and SW.
True, but the turbolaser travels at a very slow speed, seen on screen, it would take time for the shot to travel to the targeted vessel if it positioned 50,000 kilometers away.

Wrong. The invisible damaging part moves at C.

Cpt_Frank · Post by **Cpt_Frank** » 2002-09-02 04:04pm

Raziel wrote:
Cpt_Frank wrote:I liked WOK combat. It had something submarine-ish.
I think sci-fi battles should more be like submarine battles in general.
(Tough I like SW's dreadnoughts blasting away at each other with their huge guns).
I think that's exactly what the producers of TOS had in mind, submarine combat. Remember in Balance of Terror, when the Enterprise rigs for silent running? The crew whispers! While rediculous in a space battle (I don't think I have to mention why), it's exactly what a sub crew would do when running silent, since a loud voice can give your position away.

Oh, and Darkstar, please don't pollute my threads with your insanity in the future. I rather like both SW and ST (well, TOS and I through VI), and I honestly don't care all that much about the Vs. debate. That said, I also know a logical arguement when I see one... IE the one where SW trounces ST without batting an eyelash.

Yep, another thing is that on the viewscreen you rarely see the other ship exploding, most time you only see a bright flash with sound, but do you actually ever see a ship clearly in the viewer? IIRC not.
Just like the submarine does not see its enmey...

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-09-02 06:18pm

NTM the atmospheric lighting effects.

Cal Wright · Post by **Cal Wright** » 2002-09-02 06:59pm

DarkStar wrote:. . . and, therefore, starships which will outmaneuver Star Wars vessels quite comfortably.

With a BIG hole where their bridge section was?

Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi · Post by **Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi** » 2002-09-02 08:22pm

True, DarkStar, they would outmaneuver SW ships. The debris ffrom the ST ships, at least. Being able to move like an overweight X-wing won't help much in battle.

Evil Jerk · Post by **Evil Jerk** » 2002-09-02 08:31pm

I really don't see ST ships maneuvering that well though.
They certainly TRY to maneuver like fighters, but they don't really pull it off convincingly, most of the time I only see some lethargic turns.
Not to mention the many times I've seen the Enterprise-D or the Voyager lumber along or, even worse, SIT STILL relative to their enemies as they pound them..