Founding Fathers Debate -- Need Help

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

Okay, the subject of whether the majority of the Founding Fathers were Christian or Deist has come up on another board. I'm going to need a little help here. Specifically with this guy:

Posted by Storm Rucker:
For those actually interested in the topic, here's a rundown of the signers of the Declaration of Independence, the Articles of Confederation, and the Constitution of the United States, along with their religious affiliation.

Adams, Andrew, Co
Adams, John, D
Adams, Samuel, CO
Adams, Thomas, Unknown
Banister, John, Unknown
Baldwin, Abraham, P
Bartlett, Josiah, CO
Bassett, Richard, ME
Bedford, Gunning, PR
Blair, John, EP
Blount, William, EP
Braxton, Carter, D
Brearly, David, EP
Broom, Jacob, QU
Butler, Pierce, PR
Carroll, Charles, RC
Carroll, Daniel, RC
Chase, Samuel, EP
Clark, Abraham, PR
Clingan, William, PR
Collins, John, PR
Clymer, George, EP
Dana, Francis, Unknown
Dayton, Jonothan, EP
Dickenson, John, EP
Drayton, William Henry , D
Duane, James, EP
Duer, William, PR
Ellery, William, CO
Few, William, ME
Fitzsimons, Thomas, RC
Floyd, Williamm, PR
Franklin, Benjami, DE
Gerry, Elbridge, EP
Gilman, Nicholas, EP
Gorham, Nathaniel, CO
Gwynnett, Button, EP
Hall, Lyman, CO
Hamilton, Alexander, EP
Hancock, John, CO
Hanson, John, Unknown
Harnett, Cornelious, DE
Harrison, Benjamin, DE
Hart, John, PR
Harvie, John, EP
Hewes, Joseph, EP
Heyward, Thomas, PR
Heyward, Thomas, Jr. , DE
Holton, Samuel, EP
Hooper, William, EP
Hopkins, Stephen, DE
Hopkinson, Francis, DE
Hosmer, Titus, RC
Huntington, Samuel, CO
Hutson, Richard, PR
Ingersoll, Jared, PR
Jefferson, Thomas, DE
Jennifer, Dan oF St. Thomas, EP
Johnson, Wm. Saml, PR
King, Rufas, CO
Langdon, John, CO
Langworthy, Edward, EP
Laurens, Henry, HU
Lee, Henry Lightfoot, PR
Lee, Richard Henry, PR
Lewis, Francis, PR
Livingston, Phil. P
Livingston, Wil. PR
Lovell, James, EP
Lynch, Thomas Junr., EP
Madison, James Jr. TH
Marchant, Henry, PR
Mathews, John, PR
McHenry, James, PR
Middleton, Arthur, LU
Miflin, Thomas, LU
M'Kean, Thomas, PR
Morris, Gouv, EP
Morris, Lewis, PR
Morris, Robert, EP
Morton, John, Unknown
Nelson, Thomas Jr., PR
Paca, William, LU
Paine, Robert Treat, CO
Paterson, William, PT
Penn, John, UK
Pinckney, Charles, EP
Pinckney, Chas. Cotesworth, EP
Read, George, EP
Reed, Joseph, PR
Roberdeau, Daniel, PR
Rodney, Caesar, EP
Ross, George, ME
Rush, Benjamin, UN
Rutledge, Edward, CE
Rutledge, J., EP
Scudder, Nathaniel
Sherman, Roger, ME
Smith, James, PR
Smith, Jona. Bayard, PR
Spaight, Richard Dobbs, PR
Stockton, Richard, PR
Stone, Thomas, PR
Taylor, George, EP
Telfair, Edward, PR
Thornton, Matthew, PR
Van Dyke, Nicholas, EP
Walton, George, AN
Walton, Jno. , Unknown
Washington, George, TH
Wentworth, John Junr. , CO
Whipple, William, CO
Williams, Jonothan, UK
Williams, William, CO
Williamson, Hu, DE
Wilson, James EP, PR, later DE
Witherspoon, Jonothan, PR (minister)
Wolcott, Oliver, CO
Wythe, George , EP


CE = Church of England
CO = Congregationalist
DE = Deist
EP = Episcopalian
HU = Huguanot
LU = Lutheran
ME = Methodist
QU = Quaker
PR = Presbyterian
PT = Protestant
RC = Roman Catholic
TH = Theist
UK = Unknown
UN = Unitarian

I've asked this guy for a source on this information, but he has yet to provide it.

[Darth Wong]

That's an awful lot of names. Some of them are obviously more prominent than others. Why not limit it to the prominent names and then ask for quotes showing their private beliefs, since churches tend to count people as members even if they haven't seen them in ages?

Did you know that there are several churches out there which count ME as a member? I never believed, and I only attended to accompany my wife, but that was enough to put me on the list. And once you get on the list, they never take you off, unless you go there and make a big fuss asking them to take you off (and who's going to bother doing that, since it doesn't cost you anything to be on their list?)

[Superman]

That goes for me too: Some evangelical church always sends me information to be a camp councilor for the summer. Also, I am still a Catholic, apparently.

[DPDarkPrimus]

So they went to church. Has the man never heard of the phrase 'public Christians'?

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

Stork Fucker -- errrm, Storm Rucker, had a few quotes of his own:

By the way - since you're in the mood for some quotes.



" You do well to wish to learn our arts and our ways of life, and above all, the religion of Jesus Christ. Congress will do everything they can to assist you in this wise intention." -George Washington

" Let...statesmen and patriots unite their endeavors to renovate the age by...educating their little boys and girls...and leading them in the study and practice of the exalted virtues of the Christian system." -Samuel Adams

"History will also afford frequent opportunities of showing the necessity of a public religion...and the excellency of the Christian religion above all others, ancient or modern." -Benjamin Franklin

"Only one adequate plan has ever appeared in the world, and that is the Christian dispensation." -John Jay, first Chief Justice and co-Author of the Constitution.

"The United States of America were no longer Colonies. They were an independent nation of Christians." -John Qunicy Adams

Which produced the following exchange:

Posted by Storm Rucker:

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Posted by visionrazor:
What is your source for this information?


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




Paper bound between two covers - i.e. books.

You've heard of books haven't you? You know, those lengthy things you read rather than punching in key words in a search engine, that result in the thing we call "learning."

Can you say "L-E-A-R-N-I-N-G?"






--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Hey, dipshit!

Title.
Author.
Date.
Page.
My cock.
Your lips.

EDIT: Am I the only one who realizes Stork Fucker is bluffing his sources?

[Darth Wong]

So they went to church. Has the man never heard of the phrase 'public Christians'?

If I were famous, this fucktard would probably say that I am Christian because I've gone to church and am listed on several church registries.

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

Okay, he posted some sources for those quotes:

*reaches back from desk at study to book shelf without having to move ass from chair.*

Memoirs & Correspondence of Thomas Jefferson, IV, p.512

A Worthy Company: Brief Lives of the Framers of the United States Constitution, M. E. Bradford

Dictionary of American Biography (1936)

A History of Delaware Through its Governors 1776-1984 by Roger A. Martin

[Darth Wong]

Can this hatfucker explain why these men who supposedly said these things agreed to put the line "the Government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion" in the Treaty of Tripoli, which was written under Washington, approved by the Senate, and signed into law by John Adams?

That is a far more easily verified reference AND IMPORTANT PUBLIC DOCUMENT than the sources he's citing.

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

So now we have a quick switch; the government wasn't founded on Christianity, but most of the people in it were Christian.

When did I ever claim the government of the United States is founded on the Christian religion?

Not once.

In fact, I denied this contention of your own creation twice.

So, I don't know who you are quoting, but you and he are both wrong.

Bzzzzt. You lose.

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

Well, fuck. Apparently one of them who is (if not intelligent) more resourceful than the rest linked directly to this thread.

Hope I haven't caused an invasion. If it turns out that way, I want to apologize in advance... you haven't yet seen the most minute fraction of these peoples' stupidity and trollishness.

[Storm Rucker]

Well, fuck. Apparently one of them who is (if not intelligent) more resourceful than the rest linked directly to this thread.

Hope I haven't caused an invasion. If it turns out that way, I want to apologize in advance... you haven't yet seen the most minute fraction of these peoples' stupidity and trollishness.

You big pathetic faggot. Running to others to make your arguments for you.

You're a joke, boy. And no one escapes my wrath.

But you're not even worth a sneer.



-Storm Rucker
Vice Admiral
Trek BBS
www.trekbbs.com

Find me in the Neutral Zone

[faceman]

Well, fuck. Apparently one of them who is (if not intelligent) more resourceful than the rest linked directly to this thread.

Hope I haven't caused an invasion. If it turns out that way, I want to apologize in advance... you haven't yet seen the most minute fraction of these peoples' stupidity and trollishness.

Hi Visionrazer!

For EVERYBODY'S enjoyment: I will dress my links

Read the announcements forum. ~Dalton

[Markb]

Well, fuck. Apparently one of them who is (if not intelligent) more resourceful than the rest linked directly to this thread.

Hope I haven't caused an invasion. If it turns out that way, I want to apologize in advance... you haven't yet seen the most minute fraction of these peoples' stupidity and trollishness.

Hi Visionrazer!

For EVERYBODY'S enjoyment: I will dress my links

Read the announcements forum. ~Dalton

Hey Facey, where's that idea stealing bastard visionrazor?

[CaptainChewbacca]

Hey guys! Thought I'd pop in and see what all the fuss is about.

looks around. This is it?

What a crappy place for Vision to hide.

[Queen Tamar Garish]

Well, fuck. Apparently one of them who is (if not intelligent) more resourceful than the rest linked directly to this thread.

Hope I haven't caused an invasion. If it turns out that way, I want to apologize in advance... you haven't yet seen the most minute fraction of these peoples' stupidity and trollishness.

Obviously I am more intelligent than you as it was my pleasure to track down where you have been plagerizing all your material. Do these people know you steal their posts wholesale and claim them as your own?

Of course the nature of TNZ in TrekBBS means they won't see it unless they join and post 100 replies in other forums first. That must have made you feel safe to rip them off. I hope they do join, post and see what you do for themselves.

You are a no warrior visionrazor..Raoul and whatever other aliases you hide...you are simply a nothing, beneath contempt. Even 12 yr olds generally make their own arguments...you are incapable.

Game, set and match.

[faceman]

Hey Facey, where's that idea stealing bastard visionrazor?

He went home to tell on us. His mommy should be online soon.

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

Well, fuck. Apparently one of them who is (if not intelligent) more resourceful than the rest linked directly to this thread.

Hope I haven't caused an invasion. If it turns out that way, I want to apologize in advance... you haven't yet seen the most minute fraction of these peoples' stupidity and trollishness.

Obviously I am more intelligent than you as it was my pleasure to track down where you have been plagerizing all your material. Do these people know you steal their posts wholesale and claim them as your own?

Incorrect. If I quote wholesale, I credit the quote.

Of course the nature of TNZ in TrekBBS means they won't see it unless they join and post 100 replies in other forums first. That must have made you feel safe to rip them off. I hope they do join, post and see what you do for themselves.

How do you know no one here has?

You are a no warrior visionrazor..Raoul and whatever other aliases you hide...you are simply a nothing, beneath contempt. Even 12 yr olds generally make their own arguments...you are incapable.

Wrong. You are simply incapable of understanding the arguments I made. Therefore I found arguments which make sense to a known majority and present them to you in hopes that they are better phrased than my own versions, properly cited. Alternately, if there is information here that could help me form an argument, I present that information.

Game, set and match.

That's a little premature, Garish.

[Queen Tamar Garish]

Incorrect. If I quote wholesale, I credit the quote.

This is a lie. Your entire thread was ripped off of BlkBrrythegreat's thread in this very forum and no credit was given to them. Wiggle and squirm all you want but everyone can see you for what you are and all the posturing in the world will not save you.

[GC]

Yo! VR!
How's it hanging, Duke?

Since you had no answer for this over on the "other boards" I thought maybe you and your advisors might want to answer it here:

ADAMS:

[1789 address to military]
"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or gallantry would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."
*
[from inagural address]
"And may that being who is supreme over all, the Patron of Order, the Foundation of Justice, and the Protector in all ages of the world of virtuous liberty, continue His blessings upon this nation"
*
[written in 1813]
"Religion and virtue are the only foundations, not only of republicanism and of all free government, but of social felicity under all governments and in all the combinations of human society"
*
[a letter to Jefferson]
"The general principles, on which the Father achieved independence, were the only principles in which that beautiful assembly of young Gentlemen could unite- - - And what were these general principles? I answer, the general principles of Christianity . . . Now I will avow, that I then believe, and now believe, that those general Principles of Christianity, are as eternal and immutable, as the Existence and Attributes of God; and that those Principles of Liberty, are as unalterable as human Nature and our terrestrial, mundane System."
*
[from his personal diary - 1756]
"Suppose a nation in some distant region should take the Bible for their only law book, and every member should regulate his conduct by the precepts there exhibited! Every member would in conscience, to temperance, frugality, and industry; to justice, kindness and charity towards his fellow men; and to piety, love and reverence toward Almighty God; What a Utopia, what a Paradise would this region be."
*
[from his diary - 1796]
"The Christian religion is, above all the Religions that ever prevailed or existed in ancient or modern times the religion of wisdom, Virtue, Equity, and humanity."
*
"Statesmen, my dear Sir, may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is Religion and Morality alone, which can establish the Principles upon which Freedom can securely stand."
*
"The second day of July, 1776, will be the most memorable epoch in the history of America. I am apt to believe that it will be celebrated by succeeding generations as the great anniversary Festival. It ought to be commemorated, as the Day of Deliverance, by solemn acts of devotion to God Almighty..."
*
"I have thought proper to recommend, and I hereby recommend accordingly, that Thursday, the twenty-fifth day of April next, be observed throughout the United States of America as a day of solemn humiliation, fasting and prayer; that the citizens on that day abstain, as far as may be, from their secular occupation, and devote the time to the sacred duties of religion, in public and in private; that they call to mind our numerous offenses against the most high God, confess them before Him with the sincerest penitence, implore his pardoning mercy, through the Great Mediator and Redeemer, for our past transgressions, and that through the grace of His Holy Spirit, we may be disposed and enabled to yield a more suitable obedience to his righteous requisitions in time to come; that He would interpose to arrest the progress of that impiety and licentiousness in principle and practice so offensive to Himself and so ruinous to mankind; that He would make us deeply sensible that "righteousness exalteth a nation but sin is a reproach to any people"
*
[in a letter to Jefferson]
"Have you ever found in history, one single example of a Nation thoroughly corrupted that was afterwards restored to virtue?... And without virtue, there can be no political liberty....Will you tell me how to prevent riches from becoming the effects of temperance and industry? Will you tell me how to prevent luxury from producing effeminacy, intoxication, extravagance, vice and folly?...

JEFFERSON:

[National Prayer for Peace 1805]
"Almighty God, Who has given us this good land for our heritage; We humbly beseech Thee that we may always prove ourselves a people mindful of Thy favor and glad to do Thy will. Bless our land with honorable ministry, sound learning, and pure manners."

"Save us from violence, discord, and confusion, from pride and arrogance, and from every evil way. Defend our liberties, and fashion into one united people the multitude brought hither out of many kindreds and tongues."

"Endow with Thy spirit of wisdom those whome in Thy Name we entrust the authority of government, that there may be justice and peace at home, and that through obedience to Thy law, we may show forth Thy praise among the nations of earth."

"In time of prosperity fill our hearts with thankfulness, and in the day of trouble, suffer not our trust in Thee to fail; aall of which we ask through Jesus Christ our Lord, Amen."
(sounds a bit confused about Dieism which holds God takes no notice of the affairs of men)
*
"My views- - - are the result of a lifetime of inquiry and reflection, and very different from the anti-Christian imputed to me by those who know nothing of my opinions. To the corruptions of Christianity I am, indeed, opposed; but not to the genuine precepts of Jesus himself. I am a Christian in the only sense in which He wished anyone to be; sincerely attached to his doctrines in preference of all others"
*
[in Memorial and Remonstrance against Religious Asessments]
"Before any man can be considered a member of civil society, he must be considered as a subject of the Governor of the Universe."
*
"Can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are the gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that His justice cannot sleep forever."
*
"The reason that Christianity is the best friend of Government is because Christianity is the only religion that changes the heart."
*
"The only foundation for useful education in a republic is to be laid in religion."
*
[from Articles of War, 1806]
"Earnestly recommended to all officers and soldiers, diligently to attend divine services."
*
"A more beautiful or precious morsel of ethics I have never seen; it is a document in proof that I am a real Christian; that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus."
*
"(religion is) deemed in other countries incompatible with good government and yet proved by our experience to be its best support."

MADISON:

[1825 letter to Beasley]
"The belief in a God All Powerful wise and good, is so essential to the moral order of the World and happiness and man, that arguments which enforce it cannot be drawn from too many sources nor adapted with too much solicitude to the different characters and capacities to be impressed with it."
*
"Religion, or the duty we owe to our Creator, and the manner of discharging it, can be directed only by reason and conviction, not by force or violence; and, therefore, that all men should enjoy the fullest toleration in the exercise of religion according to the dictates of conscience, unpunished and unrestrained by the magistrate, unless under color of religion any man disturb the peace, the happiness, or safety of society, and that it is the mutual duty of all to practice Christian forbearance, love, and charity toward each other."
*
"We've staked the whole future of American civilization not on the power of government, far from it. We have staked the future ...upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves, to control ourselves, to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God. The future and success of America is not in this Constitution, but in the laws of God upon which this Constitution is founded."
*
"Cursed be all that learning that is contrary to the cross of Christ."
*
"Religion [is] the basis and Foundation of Government."

FRANKLIN:

[at Constitutional convention]
"I have lived, Sir, a long time, and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth--that God Governs the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid?

"We have been assured, Sir, in the Sacred Writings, that "except the Lord build the House, they labor in vain that build it." I firmly believe this; and I also believe that without his concurring aid we shall succeed in this political building no better than the Builders of Babel: We shall be divided by our partial local interests; our projects will be confounded, and we ourselves shall become a reproach and bye word down to future ages. And what is worse, mankind may hereafter from this unfortunate instance, despair of establishing Governments by Human wisdom and leave it to chance, war and conquest.

"I therefore beg leave to move--that henceforth prayers imploring the assistance of Heaven, and its blessing on our deliberations, be held in this Assembly every morning before we proceed to business, and that one or more of the clergy of this city be requested to officiate in that service."
(Again, not the modern definition of a dieist to seek God's intervention in the affairs of men)
*
[as Govorner of Penn.}
"It is the duty of mankind on all suitable occasions to acknowledge their dependence on the Divine Being... [that] Almighty God would mercifully interpose and still the rage of war among the nations...[and that] He would take this province under his protection, confound the designs and defeat the attempts of its enemies, and unite our hearts and strengthen our hands in every undertaking that may be for the public good, and for our defense and security in this time of danger."
*
"I never doubted, for instance, the existence of the Deity; that he made the world, and governed it by his Providence; that the most acceptable service of God was the doing good to man; that our souls are immortal; and that all crime will be punished, and virtue rewarded either here or hereafter."
*
[about his proposal for the national seal]
"Moses lifting up his wand, and dividing the Red Sea, and Pharaoh in his chariot overwhelmed with the waters. This motto: 'Rebellion to tyrants is obedience to God."
*
[in a pamplet for those considering moving to america]
"Atheism is unknown there; Infidelity rare and secret; so that persons may live to a great age in that country without having their piety shocked by meeting with either an Atheist or an Infidel."
*
"Here is my Creed. I believe in one God, the Creator of the Universe. That He governs it by His Providence. That he ought to be worshipped."
*
[his epitath by his own hand]
"THE BODY of BENJAMIN FRANKLIN Printer
Like the cover of an old book,
Its contents torn out,
And stripped of its lettering and gilding
Lies here, food for worms;
Yet the work itself shall not be lost,
For it will (as he believed) appear once more,
In a new,
And more beautiful edition,
Corrected and amended
By the AUTHOR"

WASHINGTON:

"And let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion. Whatever may be conceded to the influence of refined education on minds of peculiar structure, reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle"
*
on July 9, 1776 he issued a general order to his troops saying:
"The General hopes and trusts that every officer and man, will endeavor so to live, and act, as becomes a Christian Soldier defending the dearest Rights and Liberties of his country."
*
"The Hand of providence has been so conspicuous in all this, that he must be worse than an infidel that lacks faith, and more than wicked, that has not gratitude enough to acknowledge his obligations."
*
"No people can be bound to acknowledge and adore the invisible hand which conducts the affairs of men more than the people of the United States. Every step by which they have advanced to the character of an independent nation seems to have been distinguished by some token of providential agency...We ought to be no less persuaded that the propitious smiles of heaven cannot be expected on a nation that disregards the eternal rules of order and right, which heaven itself has ordained."
*
it would be peculiarly improper to omit in this first official act, my fervent supplications to that Almighty Being, who rules over the universe, who presides in the council of nations, and whose providential aids can supply every human defect, that His benediction may consecrate to the liberties and happiness of the people of the United States.."
*
"It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and the Bible."
*
"The thing that separates the American Christian from every other person on earth is the fact that he would rather die on his feet, than live on his knees!"
*
"While we are zealously performing the duties of good citizens and soldiers, we certainly ought not to be inattentive to the higher duties of religion.
To the distinguished character of Patriot, it should be our highest Glory to laud the more distinguished Character of Christian."
*
[from his personal prayer book written in his own hand]
"SUNDAY MORNING....Almighty God, and most merciful Father, who didst command the children of Israel to offer a daily sacrifice to Thee, that thereby they might glorify and praise Thee for Thy protection both night and day, receive O Lord, my morning sacrifice which I now offer up to thee;

"I yield Thee humble and hearty thanks, that Thou hast preserved me from the dangers of the night past and brought me to the Light of this day, and the comfort thereof, a day which is consecrated to Thine own service and for Thine own honour.

"Let my heart therefore gracious God be so affected with the glory and majesty of it, that I may not do mine own works but wait on Thee, and discharge those weighty duties Thou required of me: and since Thou art a God of pure eyes, and will be sanctified in all who draw nearer to Thee, who dost not regard the sacrifice of fools, nor hear sinners who tread in Thy courts, pardon I beseech Thee, my sins, remove them from Thy presence, as far as the east is from the west, and accept of me for the merits of Thy son Jesus Christ, that when I come into Thy temple and compass Thine altar, my prayer may come before Thee as incense, and as I desire Thou wouldst hear me calling upon Thee in my prayers, so give me peace to hear the calling on me in Thy word, that it may be wisdom, righteousness, reconciliation and peace to the saving of my soul in the day of the Lord Jesus.

"Grant that I may hear it with reverence, receive it with meekness, mingle it with faith, and that it may accomplish in me gracious God, the good work for which Thou hast sent it.

"Bless my family, kindred, friends and country, be our God and guide this day and forever for His sake, who lay down in the grave and arose again for us, Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen."
*
"It is impossible to account for the creation of the universe, without the agency of a Supreme Being. It is impossible to govern the universe without the aid of a Supreme Being. It is impossible to reason without arriving at a Supreme Being."

PAINE:

{at the end of his life]
"I would give worlds, if I had them, if The Age of Reason had never been published [as Franklin strongly advised him] O, Lord help! Christ, help me! Stay with me! It is hell to be alone!"
*
[some qoutes from before his "conversion" to unbelief]
"What we obtain too cheaply, we esteem too lightly; 'tis dearness only that gives everything its value. Heaven knows how to put a price upon its goods; and it would be strange indeed if so celestial an article as freedom should not be highly rated.
*
"The cause of America is in a great measure the cause of all mankind. Where, some say, is the king of America? I'll tell you, friend, He reigns above.
*
"The Almighty implanted in us these inextinguishable feelings for good and wise purposes. They are the guardians of His image in our heart. They distinguish us from the herd of common animals."
*
[on his death bed]
"I die in perfect composure and resignation to the will of my Creator, God."

Alexander Hamilton:

"I now offer you the outline of the plan they have suggested. Let an association be formed to be denominated 'The Christian Constitutional Society,' its object to be first: The support of the Christian religion. second: The support of the United States.
*
"I have carefully examined the evidences of the Christian religion, and if I was sitting as a juror upon its authenticity I would unhesitatingly give my verdict in its favor. I can prove its truth as clearly as any proposition ever submitted to the mind of man.

Patrick Henry:

"It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here."
*
"It is when people forget God that tyrants forge their chains."
*
"Bad men cannot make good citizens. A vitiated state of morals, a corrupted public conscience are incompatible with freedom."

John Jay:

"Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is the duty, as well as the privilege and interest of our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers."

Gouverneur Morris

"Religion is the only solid basis of good morals; therefore education should teach the precepts of religion, and the duties of man toward God."

William Penn:

"If thou wouldst rule well, thou must rule for God, and to do that, thou must be ruled by him....Those who will not be governed by God will be ruled by tyrants."

Noah Webster:

"No truth is more evident to any mind than that the Christian religion must be the basis of any government intended to secure the rights and privileges of a free people."
*
"In my view, the Christian religion is the most important and one of the first things in which all children, under a free government ought to be instructed....No truth is more evident to my mind than that the Christian religion must be the basis of any government intended to secure the rights and privileges of a free people."
*
[from his 1832 History of the United States]
"The brief exposition of the constitution of the United States, will unfold to young persons the principles of republican government; and it is the sincere desire of the writer that our citizens should early understand that the genuine source of correct republican principles is the Bible, particularly the New Testament or the Christian religion."
*
"The religion which has introduced civil liberty is the religion of Christ and His apostles, which enjoins humility, piety, and benevolence; which acknowledges in every person a brother, or a sister, and a citizen with equal rights. This is genuine Christianity, and to this we owe our free Constitutions of Government."
*
"The moral principles and precepts contained in the Scriptures ought to form the basis of all of our civil constitutions and laws....All the miseries and evils which men suffer from vice, crime, ambition, injustice, oppression, slavery and war, proceed from their despising or neglecting the precepts contained in the Bible."
*
"When you become entitled to exercise the right of voting for public officers, let it be impressed on your mind that God commands you to choose for rulers just men who will rule in the fear of God. The preservation of a republican government depends on the faithful discharge of this duty;"

Benjamin Rush:

"The only foundation for a useful education in a republic is to be laid in religion. Without this there can be no virtue, and without virtue there can be no liberty, and liberty is the object and life of all republican governments... Without religion, I believe learning does much mischief to the morals and principles of mankind."
*
"By removing the Bible from schools we would be wasting so much time and money in punishing criminals and so little pains to prevent crime. Take the Bible out of our schools and there would be an explosion in crime."
*
"I have alternately been called an Aristocrat and a Democrat. I am neither. I am a Christocrat."

Samual Adams:

"Let each citizen remember at the moment he is offering his vote that he is not making a present or a compliment to please an individual - - or at least that he ought not so to do; but that he is executing one of the most solemn trusts in human society for which he is accountable to God and his country."
*
"The right of the colonist as Christians...may be best understood by reading and carefully studying the institutes of the great Lawgiver and Head of the Christian Church, which are to be found clearly written and promulgated in the New Testament."
*
[upon signing the Decleration]
"We have this day restored the Sovereign to Whom all men ought to be obedient. He reigns in heaven and from the rising to the setting of the sun, let His kingdom come."

And, for a more exaustivly researched and throughly documented opinion than either yours or mine, consider this Supreme Court decision which was based on YEARS of research:

SCOTUS Decision in 1892:

The decision states,
"No purpose of action against religion can be imputed to any legislation, State or national, because this is a religious people - - - this is a Christian nation.

From the discovery of this continent to the present hour, there is a single voice making this affirmation. The commission to Christopher Columbus - - - (recited) that 'it is hoped that by God's assistance some of the continents and islands in the ocean will be discovered,' etc. The first colonial grant - that made to Sir Walter Raleigh in 1584 - - - and the grant authorizing him to make statutes for the government of the proposed colony provided that 'they be not against the true Christian faith - - -'. The first charter of Virginia, granted by King James I in 1606 - - - commenced the grant in these words: ' - - in propagating of Christian Religion to such People as yet live in Darkness - - '.

Language of similar import may be found in - - the various charters granted to the other colonies. In language more or less emphatic is the establishment of the Christian religion declared to be one of the purposes of the grant. The celebrated compact made by the Pilgrims in the Mayflower, 1620, recites: 'Having undertaken for the Glory of God, and the advancement of the Christian faith - - - a voyage to plant the first colony in the northern parts - '.

The fundamental orders of Connecticut, under which a provisional government was instituted in 1638-1639, commence with this declaration: ' - - And well knowing where a people are gathered together the word of God requires that to maintain the peace and union - - there should be an orderly and decent government established according to God - - to maintain and preserve the liberty and purity of the gospel of our Lord Jesus which we now profess - - of said Gospel (which) is now practiced amongst us.'

In the charter of privileges granted by William Penn to the province of Pennsylvania, in 1701, it is recited: '- - no people can be truly happy, though under the greatest enjoyment of civil liberties, if abridged of - - their religious profession and worship - -.'

Coming nearer to the present time, the Declaration of Independence recognizes the presence of the Divine in human affairs in these words: 'We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights - - appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions - - and for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the Protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes, and our sacred Honor.'

We find that in Updegraph v. The Commonwealth, 11 S. & R. 394, 400, it was decided that, 'Christianity, general Christianity, is, and always has been, a part of the common law - - not Christianity with an established church - - but Christianity with liberty of conscience to all men.' And in The People v. Ruggles, 8 Johns. 290, 294, 295, Chancellor Kent, the great commentator on American law, speaking as Chief Justice of the Supreme Court of New York, said: 'The people of this State, in common with the people of this country, profess the general doctrines of Christianity, as the rule of their faith and practice - - We are a Christian people, and the morality of the country is deeply engrafted upon Christianity, and not upon the doctrines or worship of those imposters (other religions).' And in the famous case of Vidal v. Girard's Executors, 2 How. 127, 198, this Court - - observed: 'It is also said, and truly, that the Christian religion is a part of the common law.'

There is no dissonance in these declarations. There is a universal language pervading them all, having one meaning; they affirm and reaffirm that this is a religious nation. These are not individual sayings, declarations of private persons: they are organic (legal, governmental) utterances; they speak the voice of the entire people. - - These, and many other matters which might be noticed, add a volume of unofficial declarations to the mass of organic utterances that this is a Christian nation."

....not that swapping quotes is going to win the day or anything....but I've got 4-6 books in my ibrary filled with these things which I haven't even opened yet.

Enjoy!

[Storm Rucker]

*draws sword*

You care to differ with what the queen hath spoken?

[Darth Wong]

Notice how none of these pussies and their "duelling quotes" bullshit even bother attempting to explain the Treaty of Tripoli. They know perfectly well how many quotes there are going the other way, and here's a secret: if someone professes Christian faith in the presence of bigots and quietly professes contempt for Christianity elsewhere, it means he's not really a Christian. Word to the wise.

[Dalton]

Hooray, more chew toys.

[Darth Wong]

They are attempting to "prove" that America is based on the Christian faith, by ignoring the most publicly and clearly worded statements on that issue, such as those in the Treaty of Tripoli, signed and documented into law by the founding fathers.

As evidence, they dig up various quotes stating a contrary opinion, some of questionable source (given Thomas Jefferson's private writings about religion, using him as proof of America's Christian basis is pretty damned funny) and some as recent as 1892. Ooooohhh.

[Dalton]

They are attempting to "prove" that America is based on the Christian faith, by ignoring the most publicly and clearly worded statements on that issue, such as those in the Treaty of Tripoli, signed and documented into law by the founding fathers.

As evidence, they dig up various quotes stating a contrary opinion, some of questionable source (given Thomas Jefferson's private writings about religion, using him as proof of America's Christian basis is pretty damned funny) and some as recent as 1892. Ooooohhh.

Well what do you expect when they can't deal with reality?

[Darth Wong]

You big pathetic faggot. Running to others to make your arguments for you.

You small pathetic homophobe. Can't go anywhere to debate without bringing your whole posse with you. At least he had the balls to go there and take you on alone, even if he asked others for tips. You can't leave your house without your little gang of friends, for fear you might run into older boys who beat you up.

You're a joke, boy. And no one escapes my wrath.

Ooooooh, the big nasty man has spoken. Everyone fear the tough guy who doesn't even have the balls to go out by himself at night.

But you're not even worth a sneer.

Then why did you come here with your whole posse just to deliver one, dumb-ass?

-Storm Rucker
Vice Admiral
Trek BBS
www.trekbbs.com

Find me in the Neutral Zone

Hey look, a Trekkie whose sig is a pseudo-Trek title and who speaks in Trek-isms! <SARCASM>Wow, I've never seen a Trekkie act like that before!</SARCASM>