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I noticed another example of this tactic in the TOS Episode where Kirk and co use them on the followers of Landru (two beams knocking out 4-5 people at once).

This in addition to that one Voyager episode where the "spirits" leap into the crews bodies and Tuvok uses wide beam to stun everyone on the bridge but him. Then there was that episode where Sisko and Kira were using phaser rifles on "wide beam" to stun hidden changlings.

Are there any other examples? I have some pics of the TOS episode, but nowhere to upload them at the minute....

Kurgan wrote:Are there any other examples? I have some pics of the TOS episode, but nowhere to upload them at the minute....

TOS "Wink of an Eye" has some use of phasers on wide beam both on stun and kill, I believe.

Ted C wrote:

Kurgan wrote:Are there any other examples? I have some pics of the TOS episode, but nowhere to upload them at the minute....

TOS "Wink of an Eye" has some use of phasers on wide beam both on stun and kill, I believe.

I suspect that almost all phaser settings are compatable with wide beam settings, such as vaporize, heat and such. The likely problem of such usage would be high energy drains, and not very practical if you want many shots against numerous enemies (say during a war or heavy conflict). But it would make for a good impression against an enemy. I think a group of Storm Troopers might flinch if a single Ensign vaped or at least killed a group of ten Troopers close together. Might make them wonder just how many times he can do that.

Tuvok stunned the bridge crew with his wide beam.

Say he can set it to kill, I reckon you'd only get 1 shot outta that. 2 or 3 if it hadda been a rifle.

Lol, yeah the Stormies might reconsider after seeing 10 of their comrades splattered by a red shirt.


Phaser: POW!
Stormtrooper: Wow. Um...........run.

In "Wost Case Scenario" a Phaser Rifle was set to Wide+Kill.

In the TOS episode "A Piece of the Action" the Enterprises phaser banks fired a wide beam stun leaving everyone in a street on a planet below unconcious.

In the TNG episode "The Arsenal of Freedom" Data used his phaser set to widebeam to disrupt a forcefield.

Re.: Effect against Stormies. Does anyone have any numbers for the penetration of a phaser on high setting against stormtrooper armour (even guesstimates)? Also, would firing on wide-angle reduce the range or overall kill-power of the blast (as Physics insists that the total energy in the blast would be unchanged)?

Just some thoughts to consider on this issue, methinks.

BenRG wrote:Re.: Effect against Stormies. Does anyone have any numbers for the penetration of a phaser on high setting against stormtrooper armour (even guesstimates)? Also, would firing on wide-angle reduce the range or overall kill-power of the blast (as Physics insists that the total energy in the blast would be unchanged)?

Just some thoughts to consider on this issue, methinks.

Considering the fact that thin-walled packing crates are routinely used for cover against full-intensity phaser blasts, a highly dispersed beam will probably be utterly useless against stormtrooper armour.

And of these various "wide+kill" incidents that people are mentioning, was anyone actually shown getting killed by them? Or are we just assuming that they should kill?

Darth Wong wrote:And of these various "wide+kill" incidents that people are mentioning, was anyone actually shown getting killed by them? Or are we just assuming that they should kill?

Only two incidents that I've seen, and these were both using a stun setting rather than a lethal setting. All lethal setting engagements have always used the narrowest beams.

The first was in TOS "A Piece of the Action" aka "Let's re-use all our old prohibition-era movie sets, props and costumes". One orbital blast from the Enterprise-nil's main phasers set on heavy stun & wide dispersion knocks everyone unconscious for a radius of about a city block. IIRC, we don't see how long everyone is out, but it is long enough to convince the local boss that Kirk had just executed over a thousand civillians just to prove a point. The arc of fire (as this was an orbit to surface shot) was probably actually quite narrow, only a few arc seconds at the most. Kirk had specifically asked Scotty to target only the city block immediately around his location. I assume that, on a wider dispersion, the Enterprise could have spread this knock-out effect over a radius of several kilometres. I don't know how wide the beam would have to be before you get reduced effects and range due to dispersion of the particle beam.

The second was in the VOY episode mentioned earlier in the thread. Tuvok uses a Phaser II pistol on heavy stun and wide dispersion to knock out everyone in his field of view. Again, we don't see how long everyone is out. I would say that the dispersion angle was about 120 degrees.

Darth Wong wrote:

BenRG wrote:Re.: Effect against Stormies. Does anyone have any numbers for the penetration of a phaser on high setting against stormtrooper armour (even guesstimates)? Also, would firing on wide-angle reduce the range or overall kill-power of the blast (as Physics insists that the total energy in the blast would be unchanged)?

Just some thoughts to consider on this issue, methinks.

Considering the fact that thin-walled packing crates are routinely used for cover against full-intensity phaser blasts, a highly dispersed beam will probably be utterly useless against stormtrooper armour.

And of these various "wide+kill" incidents that people are mentioning, was anyone actually shown getting killed by them? Or are we just assuming that they should kill?

That would be metal packing crates. And that metal might of been very tough. And IIRC most of the crates were bent, melted and generally wrecked. The reason they take cover at those spots is because theres lots of the crates, and the enemy wont know exactly where they are. So they would have to destroy all the barrels/crates to find them.

Stormie armour on the other hand, has not impressed me. It seems to crack, and is vulnerable to wooden arrows. Blasters kill Stormies in one shot. We have seen the effect of blasters on un-armoured people. It is similar to the same effect by a phaser on kill. A bunch of sparks, burnt clothing, dead person.

Using that we could say that the effects on Stormie armour would be similar for blasters and kill setting phasers. I doubt that a light stun beam could hurt the Stormtrooper through the armour, but kill would for sure.

I think its reasonable to say that a hand phaser could be used at kill setting on wide beam. But only once, that much energy would drain the power cells.

TurboPhaser wrote:That would be metal packing crates. And that metal might of been very tough. And IIRC most of the crates were bent, melted and generally wrecked. The reason they take cover at those spots is because theres lots of the crates, and the enemy wont know exactly where they are. So they would have to destroy all the barrels/crates to find them.

Please show me these crates being bent, melted, and wrecked. Episode names and screenshots would be good, since I've never witnessed such a thing.

Stormie armour on the other hand, has not impressed me. It seems to crack, and is vulnerable to wooden arrows. Blasters kill Stormies in one shot. We have seen the effect of blasters on un-armoured people. It is similar to the same effect by a phaser on kill. A bunch of sparks, burnt clothing, dead person.

Bullshit. Please show me your screenshots of stormie armour clearly cracking, and from what. Also show the wooden arrows (since arrows normally have a metallic tip, and can exceed the penetration of bullets with sufficient tension), and provide screenshots of them puncturing the armour rather than just hitting the rubber body glove at the joints. And finally, watch the ANH docking bay 94 battle, in which Solo's blaster blows torso-sized chunks out of the docking bay walls. A blaster set on high power is far more dangerous than you admit.

Using that we could say that the effects on Stormie armour would be similar for blasters and kill setting phasers. I doubt that a light stun beam could hurt the Stormtrooper through the armour, but kill would for sure.

That is not "sure" at all, unless it hits the body glove rather than the armour plating.

I think its reasonable to say that a hand phaser could be used at kill setting on wide beam. But only once, that much energy would drain the power cells.

You weren't the brightest kid in your math class, were you? Take a beam which normally strikes an area of perhaps 1 cm width, and expand it to a 90 degree cone at a distance of 10 metres: its intensity will drop by a factor of three million. In other words, a phaser must have enough power for three million kill-power shots in order to fire a single wide+kill blast with a 90 degree cone at 10 metres. It is hardly "reasonable" to assume that this is possible. Hell, even a 30 degree cone would still require the ability to fire more than a quarter-million shots.

Darth Wong wrote:And of these various "wide+kill" incidents that people are mentioning, was anyone actually shown getting killed by them? Or are we just assuming that they should kill?

No one was killed in the "Wink of an Eye" incident.

Darth Wong wrote:

TurboPhaser wrote:Stormie armour on the other hand, has not impressed me. It seems to crack, and is vulnerable to wooden arrows. Blasters kill Stormies in one shot. We have seen the effect of blasters on un-armoured people. It is similar to the same effect by a phaser on kill. A bunch of sparks, burnt clothing, dead person.

Bullshit. Please show me your screenshots of stormie armour clearly cracking, and from what. Also show the wooden arrows (since arrows normally have a metallic tip, and can exceed the penetration of bullets with sufficient tension), and provide screenshots of them puncturing the armour rather than just hitting the rubber body glove at the joints. And finally, watch the ANH docking bay 94 battle, in which Solo's blaster blows torso-sized chunks out of the docking bay walls. A blaster set on high power is far more dangerous than you admit.

Question: Was that Han's hand blaster or was it the Millenium Falcon's main guns or swivel blaster doing the real damage? I only ask as during the fight, there is a clear cut to Chewbacca doing something on the flight deck and then looking out of the windows at something. I have always assumed that he is doing something to help bail his friend out of trouble.

I'm not saying that blasters aren't powerful though. In the Detention Block control room battle, either Han or Luke scores a kill from a near miss. The blast hits the wall behind a marine guard and kills him outright. There is no indication that the blasters are set on anything other than their standard anti-personnel mode at this time.

Regarding the relative effect of an Imperial blaster carbine and a Federation phaser III rifle: Generally, phasers striking a non-organic surface cause a point burn of varying depth, more like a laser than anything else. A blaster hit causes the target to violently explode, leaving a crater about the size of a fist that is still hot enough that any flamable material in the damaged area bursts into flame.

BenRG wrote:Question: Was that Han's hand blaster or was it the Millenium Falcon's main guns or swivel blaster doing the real damage? I only ask as during the fight, there is a clear cut to Chewbacca doing something on the flight deck and then looking out of the windows at something. I have always assumed that he is doing something to help bail his friend out of trouble.

Chewie seemed to be prepping the ship for take-off, and the Falcon's weapons were clearly seen to be in the neutral positions while the Falcon was taking off in the SE trilogy (you can see both quad-guns pointing forward, and the drop-down blaster didn't seem to be extended, though I admit it's sorta hard to tell for sure since the Falcon's list hides it for almost the entire sequence). Han's weapon seemed to be the only one firing.

I'm not saying that blasters aren't powerful though. In the Detention Block control room battle, either Han or Luke scores a kill from a near miss. The blast hits the wall behind a marine guard and kills him outright. There is no indication that the blasters are set on anything other than their standard anti-personnel mode at this time.

NTM on Bespin, when E-11 fire directed at Luke Skywalker blasted craters in a solid metal wall the size of a soft-ball.

Regarding the relative effect of an Imperial blaster carbine and a Federation phaser III rifle: Generally, phasers striking a non-organic surface cause a point burn of varying depth, more like a laser than anything else. A blaster hit causes the target to violently explode, leaving a crater about the size of a fist that is still hot enough that any flamable material in the damaged area bursts into flame.

When fired at the metal packing crates (which I have never seen melted, twisted, mangled, etc.), phaser fire generally puts a little scorch mark in it, but creates no observable KE impact or substantial melting of the target. "Nemesis" revealed that Reman hand-weapons were capable of cratering a metal door, and melting a tiny volume of metal within a few seconds on the right setting, but the UFP hand-weapons had noticeably little effect on the corridors of the E-E, sometimes not even scorching or marking the parts of the ship that they hit.

I would point out that TNG+ phasers are rarely seen on full power. Crates sure do block shots, but "full-intensity"(Mike Wong) they are not. Evidence? Simple. Nemesis: Phasers on both sides do very little damage to metal corridors during firefights (Yet a hit from this will likely kill, Phasers are not friendly to organic life)--



Note the lack of damage after the impact of this bolt, during a firefight with typical weapons settings.


Now note what these same weapons can do when the power is increased...those shots would make short work of any cargo crate.


Federation rifles can do this, perhaps even more.

Cargo crates protect people from low power, but still lethal shots. They will not protect from high power shots, at least not for long. Why users don't increase the power in fights is another debate.

The two incidents of Wide+Kill in Worst Case Scenario (VOY) were used to threaten other people with death. In both cases, the people being threatened and the person holding the phaser were very knowledgble about Federation weponry. Both times both sides took wide+kill very seriously.

The first time, Seska was on the giving end. The second, she was on the recieving. And say what you will about Voyager crew member, but Seska was not idiot (she was a villan).

Was that the episode where the Holodeck mutiny program goes out of control? If not, I think a widebeam+threat of death happened in that episode as well. Someone threatened an entire room full of people with one phaser on widebeam. It has been a long time though, so I may have my episodes confused so take this with some salt.

Please show me these crates being bent, melted, and wrecked. Episode names and screenshots would be good, since I've never witnessed such a thing.

If I had photos I would show them. I suppose you think its easy finding screencaps of such particular incidents? But you asked, so I will try to find some.

Bullshit. Please show me your screenshots of stormie armour clearly cracking, and from what. Also show the wooden arrows (since arrows normally have a metallic tip, and can exceed the penetration of bullets with sufficient tension), and provide screenshots of them puncturing the armour rather than just hitting the rubber body glove at the joints. And finally, watch the ANH docking bay 94 battle, in which Solo's blaster blows torso-sized chunks out of the docking bay walls. A blaster set on high power is far more dangerous than you admit.

Whats with the aggression?

I suppose its possible that the arrows hit in the rubber areas, but from what I remember from RotJ, it didnt look that way.

Why is it you assume i'm not willing to abmit the ANH scene? I am, I never said I wouldnt.

Cracking? I believe I saw a screencap somewhere of a crack in their armour during the Endor battle, I'll try to find it.

You weren't the brightest kid in your math class, were you? Take a beam which normally strikes an area of perhaps 1 cm width, and expand it to a 90 degree cone at a distance of 10 metres: its intensity will drop by a factor of three million. In other words, a phaser must have enough power for three million kill-power shots in order to fire a single wide+kill blast with a 90 degree cone at 10 metres. It is hardly "reasonable" to assume that this is possible. Hell, even a 30 degree cone would still require the ability to fire more than a quarter-million shots.

If I recall correctly, something about wide kill shots was mentioned in 'Worst Case Scenario'. And if you can calculate that, I'm sure you could do the same with the stun wide field demonstrated in 'Cathexis'.

After all, I'm apparently not bright enough to do the math am i? Don't make insulting comments about my education when you know nothing of it.

TurboPhaser wrote:If I had photos I would show them. I suppose you think its easy finding screencaps of such particular incidents? But you asked, so I will try to find some.

I never said it was easy. But when you make a claim that flies in the face of everyone's recollection of events, the onus is on you to back it up. Make sense?

Whats with the aggression?

Perhaps the fact that you make arguments about stormtrooper armour which have been made and refuted about a million times.

If I recall correctly, something about wide kill shots was mentioned in 'Worst Case Scenario'. And if you can calculate that, I'm sure you could do the same with the stun wide field demonstrated in 'Cathexis'.

A stun field is perfectly reasonable. A 1 MW device could easily put enough juice into a person's body to knock him out even if it's widely dispersed. However, taking a phaser set to punch through metal (if this is even possible with UFP weapons) and saying that it is "reasonable" to assume that it can still do so when its intensity is reduced by a factor of a million is simply ridiculous.

After all, I'm apparently not bright enough to do the math am i? Don't make insulting comments about my education when you know nothing of it.

The proof is in the pudding. You said it was reasonable to assume that a phaser could somehow maintain armour-penetrating power despite a millionfold decrease in intensity. You obviously did not perform the math. You can say whatever you like about your education, but when you make a statement which is mathematically absurd, that speaks for itself.

There is only one case I can think of off hand where Star Trek energy weapons proved capable of punching holes in the equivalent of a packing crate. It was in the DS9 episode "Who Mourns for Morn."

Near the end of the episode there is a shootout in a cargo bay. The transport container in which Morn's thousand "bricks" of gold-pressed latinum are delivered is a flimsy plastic structure, with a somewhat wobbly lid. As soon as the shootout starts, Quark dives in and hunkers down atop the pile of goodies. Several energy beams from assorted illicit handguns zip through the container, punching through both sides without apparent impediment, leaving matching pairs of holes in the plastic.

Patrick Ogaard wrote:There is only one case I can think of off hand where Star Trek energy weapons proved capable of punching holes in the equivalent of a packing crate. It was in the DS9 episode "Who Mourns for Morn."

Hey! Well done for remembering that! Of course, those were narrow-beam attacks, probably on what was close to the maximum setting for those weapons. The effect of a high/maximum setting attack on wide dispersion remains to be seen. The crate was also clearly made of very thin gauge metal or plastic (just a standard shipping crate for a pressurised cargo bay, I guess). It tells us little about a phaser's effect on the thick, multi-layered stormtrooper armour which, one assumes, must be designed to counter just such an attack.

In all fairness, I must say that it is probable that it is possible to deliver a wide-angle kill blast from a phaser that would wreck havoc on closely-packed enemies. Seska (in 'Worst Case Scenario') wouldn't have made the threat if she didn't believe someone trained with Federation weapons would regard it as credible. However, this threat is always made at close range (less than 5 metres, usually). The fact that we don't see it used more often when the Jem'hadar or the Klingons do their humanoid-wave attacks indicates that there must be some limitation in range or power usage.

The Silence and I wrote:Was that the episode where the Holodeck mutiny program goes out of control? If not, I think a widebeam+threat of death happened in that episode as well. Someone threatened an entire room full of people with one phaser on widebeam. It has been a long time though, so I may have my episodes confused so take this with some salt.

Well, but you can also threaten them with wide stun setting.
Wide beam means they most surely will be caught in it and when the other people in the room are caught in it too - you don't need to worry about them doing anything while you finish off the perp.

Jawawithagun wrote

The Silence and I wrote:
Was that the episode where the Holodeck mutiny program goes out of control? If not, I think a widebeam+threat of death happened in that episode as well. Someone threatened an entire room full of people with one phaser on widebeam. It has been a long time though, so I may have my episodes confused so take this with some salt.


Well, but you can also threaten them with wide stun setting.
Wide beam means they most surely will be caught in it and when the other people in the room are caught in it too - you don't need to worry about them doing anything while you finish off the perp

Isn't that stretching just a bit?

BenRG wrote:

Patrick Ogaard wrote:There is only one case I can think of off hand where Star Trek energy weapons proved capable of punching holes in the equivalent of a packing crate. It was in the DS9 episode "Who Mourns for Morn."

Hey! Well done for remembering that! Of course, those were narrow-beam attacks, probably on what was close to the maximum setting for those weapons. The effect of a high/maximum setting attack on wide dispersion remains to be seen. The crate was also clearly made of very thin gauge metal or plastic (just a standard shipping crate for a pressurised cargo bay, I guess). It tells us little about a phaser's effect on the thick, multi-layered stormtrooper armour which, one assumes, must be designed to counter just such an attack.

In all fairness, I must say that it is probable that it is possible to deliver a wide-angle kill blast from a phaser that would wreck havoc on closely-packed enemies. Seska (in 'Worst Case Scenario') wouldn't have made the threat if she didn't believe someone trained with Federation weapons would regard it as credible. However, this threat is always made at close range (less than 5 metres, usually). The fact that we don't see it used more often when the Jem'hadar or the Klingons do their humanoid-wave attacks indicates that there must be some limitation in range or power usage.

In fact, the Starfleet folks don't seem to have ever used that capability, even when desperately fighting for their lives against those trademark humanoid-wave attacks. Some mental gymnastics might provide the necessary answer.

If one takes the TNG Technical Manual as providing at least some useful information (regardless of reasonable objections to its unofficial status), phasers have some problems.

Problem one is that, to "protect" the user, the discharge of a personal phaser requires a distance of about one meter to "decay and recombine to form full-lethality emissions." That means that in close quarters battle, which Klingons and Jem'hadar seem to favor, and which is a staple of transporter-supported boarding actions, it is a perfectly valid tactic to close with the enemy as quickly as possible in order to get inside the effective reach of the enemy's phasers.

Problem two is that, as has been pointed out, the power requirements of a 90 degree cone of killing intensity at any kind of usable range would be staggering. The simple fact that the troops fighting at The Siege of AR-558 did not use those wide angle Kill shots and in fact relied on rather slow semiautomatic fire, even going so far as to pass out spare multiple spare power cells to guard against their guns running dry, seems to indicate that phaser weapons don't have particularly big power reserves at high settings.

Taken together, I suspect those two factors combine to make wide angle kill shots highly impractical. The effective Cone of Doom (tm) probably has a range of 5 meters or less at 90 degree angle (if the emitter can take that kind of load). Given that anyone stepping inside the 1 meter "safe zone" of lethal phaser settings can simply clobber the shooter, a short range lethal shot at lethal intensity seems like a major liability for a phaser 1 to 3.

It might work against a crowd of closely packed, unarmed victims at close range, or against multiple opponents on a cramped starship bridge.

Ultimately, the real problem seems to be that Star Trek ground combat technology makes absolutely no sense. Any Federation Junkyard Wars team should be able to juryrig drastically superior armaments. A simple box rigged to hold and fire, in sequence, 25 or 36 type 1 phasers would be adequate to generate a fair (and cheap) approximation of a machine gun in the short range, direct fire role. Two such units prepositioned for overlapping fields of fire covering the choke point the AR-558 Jem'hadar had to negotiate would have cut them to ribbons.

Considering the low mass and bulk of the later models of phaser 2, it should also be quite easy to integrate multiple emitters in a rifle-sized unit, again set to fire sequentially. But that's getting seriously off topic.

Now if a phaser 2 or 3 could be set to fire a fan-shaped shot at setting 7...

I don't think that it's a particularly good strategy to base one's entire attack around the theory that you can close to within 1 meter of your enemy across open ground without suppression fire or cover of any kind.