Use of lethal force to defend your home.

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What is your choice

Open fire immediately
39
55%
Flee safely
6
8%
Step outside with the rifle and warn the mob
21
30%
Try to talk them out of it unarmed
0
No votes
Other (describe actions taken)
5
7%
 
Total votes: 71
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Glocksman
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Use of lethal force to defend your home.

Post by Glocksman »

Inspired by this thread.

Let's take the shoot a burglar scenario and the mob attack scenario and combine them.

Let's say that for whatever reason, a mob of about 10 people has formed and is determined to run you out of your house. They are carrying cans of fuel and lit torches and are screaming 'burn the motherfucker out'. You have every reason to believe that they are going to do exactly that. Other than the torches and gas cans, the group appears to be unarmed.

You are inside armed with either a semiauto AK or AR15 (your choice) with a fully loaded 30 round magazine (and 2 extra mags) and you are wearing a handgun for backup. The police cannot help as the nearest police station is 30 minutes away. By the time they arrive your house will be in ashes. You can, however, make it to your car and safely flee.


This scenario is taking place in rural Indiana, so the Indiana Code is the governing law.
Section dealing with an attack on one's dwelling is bolded.
Sec. 2. (a) A person is justified in using reasonable force against another person to protect the person or a third person from what the person reasonably believes to be the imminent use of unlawful force. However, a person is justified in using deadly force only if the person reasonably believes that that force is necessary to prevent serious bodily injury to the person or a third person or the commission of a forcible felony. No person in this state shall be placed in legal jeopardy of any kind whatsoever for protecting the person or a third person by reasonable means necessary.
(b) A person is justified in using reasonable force, including deadly force, against another person if the person reasonably believes that the force is necessary to prevent or terminate the other person's unlawful entry of or attack on the person's dwelling or curtilage.
(c) With respect to property other than a dwelling or curtilage, a person is justified in using reasonable force against another person if the person reasonably believes that the force is necessary to immediately prevent or terminate the other person's trespass on or criminal interference with property lawfully in the person's possession, lawfully in possession of a member of the person's immediate family, or belonging to a person whose property the person has authority to protect. However, a person is not justified in using deadly force unless that force is justified under subsection (a).

You have the firepower to repel the mob. What do you do?
"You say that it is your custom to burn widows. Very well. We also have a custom: when men burn a woman alive, we tie a rope around their necks and we hang them. Build your funeral pyre; beside it, my carpenters will build a gallows. You may follow your custom. And then we will follow ours."- General Sir Charles Napier

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Post by Enforcer Talen »

Im opening fire.
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Post by BlkbrryTheGreat »

Id try to wound them...... I wouldn't actually kill them unless I had to (to defend my life). Don't get me wrong though, if they die I won't be shedding any tears.
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Post by Kitsune »

BlkbrryTheGreat wrote:Id try to wound them...... I wouldn't actually kill them unless I had to (to defend my life). Don't get me wrong though, if they die I won't be shedding any tears.
The safe technical term is that you shoot to stop...wounding gets you malicious wounding in most states...also, in many cases a hand or leg shot will not disable an oponent. Your best shot is a shoot to 'stop ' (not to wound or kill) with a center of mass shot. Easiest target to hit and one of the likeliest to 'stop' your opponent.
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Post by Alyeska »

I would step outside and warn them first. If they refused to cease and desist then I will open fire. My home and my personal possesions combined with my personal saftey are worth far more then the potential lives of these fucking idiots. I will not try and kill them, I will try and stop them. If some die, and others live, then so be it.
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Post by Glocksman »

I would open fire (from cover) on the ground in front of lead person and then observe what happens next. If they flee, great. I didn't have to shoot anyone and the police will round them up later.

If not, then I go through the 3 loaded magazines until no one is left standing to pose a threat.

My home comes before the well being of those who would destroy it.
"You say that it is your custom to burn widows. Very well. We also have a custom: when men burn a woman alive, we tie a rope around their necks and we hang them. Build your funeral pyre; beside it, my carpenters will build a gallows. You may follow your custom. And then we will follow ours."- General Sir Charles Napier

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Post by Kitsune »

Generally, warning shots are not recommended although I have heard of them being sucessfully defended in court. They see a firearm, if that is not warning enough in most cases though
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Post by Glocksman »

The problem there is that I'd have to break cover for them to see the firearm.

And I wouldn't call it a warning shot, I'd call it a lousy shot. :wink:

Though I think that in the described scenario, a warning shot wouldn't matter legally. Generally though, I agree. Warning shots are a bad idea because if you're justified in pulling the gun, you're legally justified in using the gun and a warning shot can to blur whether or not the use of the gun is legally justifiable.
"You say that it is your custom to burn widows. Very well. We also have a custom: when men burn a woman alive, we tie a rope around their necks and we hang them. Build your funeral pyre; beside it, my carpenters will build a gallows. You may follow your custom. And then we will follow ours."- General Sir Charles Napier

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Post by Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi »

1. Warning the mob might be too dangerous, so I'd just get back in my home and drive away in it.

2. Warning the mob might be too dangerous, so I'd fire a few shots. I really wouldn't want to kill them, and if I had acess to something like a stun gun or a tranquelizer that would work as well as a gun I would use it, but it's either their pathetic lives go or my posessions go in this case. Even better, having a few of their men go down might scare the others off. I inform the police of them. I might face some charges, though.

3. I get into my car and speed away. They go after me, and a high-speed action packed car chase follows. They eventually go down, but I get sued for copyright infringement by the Dukes of Hazzard.
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Post by RedImperator »

What's to stop them from blocking the driveway and throwing burning gasoline over my car while I'm still in it? Besides, God damn it, this is my home and (in this scenario) I've spent my entire life working for it and everything in it. Anyone carrying anything flammable goes down first, and then I start working the crowd until they've all dispersed or they've all died. I won't shoot anyone who's got his back to the house or is too far back (i.e., out of throwing range for a Molotov coctail or burning oil-soaked rag) to be a threat, but that's as far as my mercy goes.
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Post by weemadando »

1) Call police.
2) Warn mob verbally (from window)
3) If no response (well, no positive response), fire one shot at the ground infront of the ringleader.
4) If no response warn again.
5) Unless they begin to advance on the house, maintain the status quo until the police arrive. If they advance, fire another round or two infront of the mob, see if they slow or halt. If not, shoot the ringleader. Unless its a truly determined mob, this should make them back off.
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Post by Einhander Sn0m4n »

Three words:

Shoot To Kill!

So I got ninety rounds to play with? I'd aim for their heads, all of them. Shoot To Kill. :evil:
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Post by Glocksman »

What's to stop them from blocking the driveway and throwing burning gasoline over my car while I'm still in it?
Assume they won't because they're a bunch of fundies who think the house is haunted by Satan or something and have no interest in you.

The point behind this poll is to see who's willing to use lethal force to protect their home and who thinks that property isn't worth killing over and would flee rather than use deadly force.
"You say that it is your custom to burn widows. Very well. We also have a custom: when men burn a woman alive, we tie a rope around their necks and we hang them. Build your funeral pyre; beside it, my carpenters will build a gallows. You may follow your custom. And then we will follow ours."- General Sir Charles Napier

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Post by RedImperator »

Glocksman wrote:
What's to stop them from blocking the driveway and throwing burning gasoline over my car while I'm still in it?
Assume they won't because they're a bunch of fundies who think the house is haunted by Satan or something and have no interest in you.

The point behind this poll is to see who's willing to use lethal force to protect their home and who thinks that property isn't worth killing over and would flee rather than use deadly force.
Hmm. In that case, even shooting them might not drive them away, if they're fanatical enough. Still, it's my house, and they should have known better.
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Post by weemadando »

Glocksman wrote:
What's to stop them from blocking the driveway and throwing burning gasoline over my car while I'm still in it?
Assume they won't because they're a bunch of fundies who think the house is haunted by Satan or something and have no interest in you.

The point behind this poll is to see who's willing to use lethal force to protect their home and who thinks that property isn't worth killing over and would flee rather than use deadly force.
Well shit, in that case you should have outlined it in the opening post, rather than making us believe it was a lynchmob after us... " a mob of about 10 people has formed and is determined to run you out of your house. They are carrying cans of fuel and lit torches and are screaming 'burn the motherfucker out'." This entire thread, is thus, misleading, as if we could leave unopposed at any time as you now imply all your findings are incorrect at the very least or indeed, just plain false.
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Post by Glocksman »

This entire thread, is thus, misleading, as if we could leave unopposed at any time as you now imply all your findings are incorrect at the very least or indeed, just plain false.
In the opening post, I stated very clearly that you had time to safely flee in your car.
You can, however, make it to your car and safely flee.
The bit about the fundies was just to make it clearer for RedImperator that safely fleeing was a viable option. However on reflection, I see your point because it implies that you can flee even as the mob is setting the house on fire.

My bad. :oops:

I should simply have stated that the mob was 100 yards away (thus giving you time to run out the back and jump in the car behind the house) rather than cloud it up with the bit about the fundies.
"You say that it is your custom to burn widows. Very well. We also have a custom: when men burn a woman alive, we tie a rope around their necks and we hang them. Build your funeral pyre; beside it, my carpenters will build a gallows. You may follow your custom. And then we will follow ours."- General Sir Charles Napier

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Post by weemadando »

Glocksman wrote:
This entire thread, is thus, misleading, as if we could leave unopposed at any time as you now imply all your findings are incorrect at the very least or indeed, just plain false.
In the opening post, I stated very clearly that you had time to safely flee in your car.
Thats not the point, the point is that you made it appear that the target was YOU, not YOUR HOME. It was reasonable to assume that they would follow you in your car, rather than just go after your house. The thread remains flawed and misleading.
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Post by Glocksman »

It was reasonable to assume that they would follow you in your car, rather than just go after your house. The thread remains flawed and misleading.
Misleading?

The very title of the thread is "Use of lethal force to defend your home".


In the initial post, it's stated very clearly that you have the option to retreat safely. This implies that they won't follow you as being chased down a country road isn't a safe retreat.

It's also stated that the intent of the mob is to run you out of the house, not to kill you.
"You say that it is your custom to burn widows. Very well. We also have a custom: when men burn a woman alive, we tie a rope around their necks and we hang them. Build your funeral pyre; beside it, my carpenters will build a gallows. You may follow your custom. And then we will follow ours."- General Sir Charles Napier

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Post by The Question »

So we're assuming some got past the Claymore mines, eh?
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Post by Drooling Iguana »

I'd do a combination of 2 and 3. I'd tell my family to flee, and threaten the mob with my weapons to buy them some time. If, by the time my family is safely in the car with the engine running, the mob is still advancing, I'd jump in the car with them and drive to safety. A house can be rebuilt. Death is a bit more permanent.
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Post by Gandalf »

After a few warning shots, if they advance I open fire.
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Post by Grand Admiral Thrawn »

They get five seconds. 6 if I'm feeling generous.
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Post by Darth Wong »

Glocksman wrote:Misleading?

The very title of the thread is "Use of lethal force to defend your home".

In the initial post, it's stated very clearly that you have the option to retreat safely. This implies that they won't follow you as being chased down a country road isn't a safe retreat.

It's also stated that the intent of the mob is to run you out of the house, not to kill you.
Ummmm, I hate to break this to you since I like you the best of all the NRA debaters on the board, but it is misleading. If the desire is to determine whether someone would kill to protect his property WITHOUT making personal safety an issue, then having a mob coming at you screaming "burn the motherfucker out" ruins the scenario.

If I had a mob coming at my house screaming "burn the motherfucker out", it would be perfectly reasonable of me to think that they are after ME, not my house. I would NEVER think that if I just get out of the house, I'll be fine.

A better scenario would be a mob running around with torches and molotov cocktails screaming "hey, let's burn that house down! It'll be fun!" THAT scenario would test someone's valuation of property without bringing self-defense into the equation.
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Grand Admiral Thrawn
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Post by Grand Admiral Thrawn »

Where the fuck am I living in Police take longer to arrive then pizza and house burning mobs roam the streets.
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Post by Wicked Pilot »

Grand Admiral Thrawn wrote:Where the fuck am I living in Police take longer to arrive then pizza and house burning mobs roam the streets.
Where I live. The Deep South. Duh!
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