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What is the territory of the Klingon Empire after the war with the Dominion? How many colonies? Full planets? Did it annex any new territory, or did any other power take territory away from it?

HemlockGrey wrote:What is the territory of the Klingon Empire after the war with the Dominion? How many colonies? Full planets? Did it annex any new territory, or did any other power take territory away from it?

It is probably back to what is was before the war, they may have annexed Cardassian territory but I doubt the Federation allowed that.

...er, what was it before the war? Any colonies? Outposts? How many full worlds?

HemlockGrey wrote:...er, what was it before the war? Any colonies? Outposts? How many full worlds?

Uncertain
There are no good maps of the Star Trek Universe that count!

HemlockGrey wrote:What is the territory of the Klingon Empire after the war with the Dominion? How many colonies? Full planets? Did it annex any new territory, or did any other power take territory away from it?

I wish I could tell you something firm. I'm going to try hard

The Short Version: we know next to nothing.

The Very Long Version:

Though it's not really what you asked, you've no doubt heard that the Klingons were to spend a full decade rebuilding their fleet after the Dominion War ("Inter Arma Enim..."). But that really doesn't tell us much, since we don't know the size of their fleet in the first place.

The size of their territory is an even bigger unknown. As I understood it, the Klingons might've captured a Dominion world, one guarded only by some half-assed Order filled with old and "walking wounded" troops. I have the transcripts (thanks D), but I don't remember the name of that episode...not having that information, I'm not compelled to look through several full scripts to find it Not right now, anyway.

Ahh...what the hell. I just typed in "walking wounded," Cardassian and a couple of other things in Google. I found the episode in question:

DAMAR: The Klingons have attacked Septimus III.

WEYOUN: I'm aware of that.

DAMAR: Are you also aware that they've landed 15 divisions?
The Cardassian troops will never survive without reinforcements.

WEYOUN: I assure you the Septimus III situation will be dealt with.
We will not allow your brave soldiers to perish in vain. You have my
word.

(scene change)

MARTOK: Septimus III will fall within the week. Huh! The Cardassian
11th Order. It's a reserve unit-- old men and walking wounded. They
don't stand a chance.

SISKO: I think you're right.


No reinforcements are ever sent to Septimus. So it probably remained in Klingon hands:


DAMAR: Septimus III has fallen.

WEYOUN: Excuse me?

DAMAR: Septimus III. An entire Cardassian order has been wiped out-- 500,000 men.

WEYOUN: Oh, yes. A great tragedy.

DAMAR: You promised reinforcements.

WEYOUN: I promised nothing of the kind. I said the situation would be dealt with, and it was.

DAMAR: By leaving them to be slaughtered by Klingons?

WEYOUN: If you will calm down and listen, I will explain. The sacrifice made by the 11th Order will not be in vain. They forced the Klingons to commit worthwhile, valuable troops and resources to capture a strategically worthless planet.


Also, IIRC, the troops that secured Chin'Toka the first time around were mostly or all Klingon:

MARTOK'S COM VOICE
Well done, Major. We'll begin
transporting ground troops to
both planets immediately.

Especially after Chin'Toka fell to the Dominion in late season seven, I doubt this would give the Klingons claim enough to annex the planet(s) after the war was over. The Klingons didn't capture the system by themselves, after all. And after the war was over, they might just as easily try to consolidate their territory for all I know. (I don't think Chin'Toka was a very important system.)

That just goes to show you how "up in the air" this issue is.

I would say that the Klingons might not've lost much territory to the Dominion, since we never hear of anything like that. Right after the war, I doubt the Breen or anyone else felt frisky enough to try and take anything either. Sadly, we'll never know, since ST goes down with ENT and is probably out for the count.

The Klingons might take some Cardassian planets if the Allies divide that territory up for occupation, but I'd say this won't amount to much. Given that the Federation is running the show, and Martok is pretty tight with them, I imagine Federation "ethics" would dictate that the Cardassians not be made to suffer; i.e., they may well need the resources in most of their space after their losses to the Dominion AND the Allies.

So my guess is that they're going to hold about as much territory as they did before the war. On the one hand, as mentioned above, some consolidation is probably a good idea since they don't have the ability to control/defend their territory quite as well at the moment. On the other, the Klingons are pretty resource-poor themselves, unless things have changed a LOT since Star Trek VI. Consolidation might help them keep what they already have, but they'd likely need to expand again if they wanted to establish a new benchmark for their military strength.

*Shrugs* It's just impossible to say. Comparing Klingon space to what we know of the Federation is probably not a real good idea for a lot of reasons.

One reason is that the two powers' ethos is different. Where the Federation expands to points at which it can't even defend itself reliably ("Survivors" is a perfect example), Klingon expansion is usually backed with the naval muscle to protect it. It's pretty much idealistic principle which first drives Federation expansion, like exploration, with defense/military concerns somewhere in a distant second. To the Klingons, any move is initiated for the might, defense and glory of the Empire, with exploration or the like little more than an ancillary concern.

We known the Klingons took over several Cardassian colonies during the Cardassian-Klingon war prior to the Dominion war, but they were later pushed out by Dominion troops.

With Gowron dead, you can no longer count his bulging eyes as part of the empire. I'd say the empire is pretty small.

Wicked Pilot wrote:With Gowron dead, you can no longer count his bulging eyes as part of the empire. I'd say the empire is pretty small.

ROTF!

My thoughts on this matter was that the Klingons barely managed to scape by utter ruin in the explosion of their moon and the strain the Dominion War would have put on Klingon resources and economy would be one hell of a thing to come back from. Unless the Klingons got Cardassian Territory I doubt they will ever be able to come back from that war unless they humanoids get back into control and form a more effective government.

Jeremy wrote:My thoughts on this matter was that the Klingons barely managed to scape by utter ruin in the explosion of their moon and the strain the Dominion War would have put on Klingon resources and economy would be one hell of a thing to come back from.

Well, Sloan did say they'd be back--just that it'd be 10 years. But we don't know how much of a strain it'd be on their resources/economy. It could indeed be tremendously costly.

Unless the Klingons got Cardassian Territory I doubt they will ever be able to come back from that war unless they humanoids get back into control and form a more effective government.

It's my belief that the smooth-heads don't exist--absolutely not as a "race."

That's one of the very few instances in which I'm not happy at all with visuals. DS9 really thumbed its nose at serious sci-fi analysts who tried to make sense of such things.

But I can accept them, rationalizing that the Klingons might've surgically altered soldiers on the Federation border to appear less intimidating or to occassionally pose as humans to Organian-type races.

This fits all of the facts at hand, even Worf's regrettable mention that Klingons "didn't talk about" the changes in appearance in "Trials and Tribbleations."

They WOULD hesitate to talk about surgical alterations (which are canon anyway; e.g., Darvin on Station K7), though, which could be viewed as sneaky and dishonorable.

However, the Klingons are certainly not above genocide; they would NOT be "ashamed" or reluctant to talk about vanquishing a powerful foe! In the context of everything else we know of Klingons, the "two races" explanation fails to account for Worf's statement.

Besides, Kang, Koloth and Kor were seen later with bumpy forehands. If they were born "smooth," they would NOT be the type to hide their race to avoid a purge. Kang was ready to effectively commit suicide just so he could die fighting in "Blood Oath," as were the others.

No: they must've been born "bumpy," and only went smooth because the Empire deemed it necessary.

Remember, the "smoothness" occured at a time during which the Federation was becoming VERY, VERY powerful...previous to Kirk's era, it was closer to something like we see in ENT--a bug on the windshield.

By TOS the Klingons started to panic, as this was the first *real* enemy they'd faced since the Hur'q. (The Romulans didn't have warp drive at that point, only some primitive, short-range FTL. The Vulcans weren't the type to WAGE WAR. The Suliban weren't large scale enough. The Andorians were occupied with the Vulcans.)

I mean, think about it...their once feared D7 battlecruisers, variants of which had cruised around local space kicking ass for ONE HUNDRED YEARS, were now EASILYa dispatched by Constitutions. Their centuries of expansion were brought to a very abrupt end.

They needed an edge, and honorable, head-to-head combat wasn't getting the job done. No honor is greater than that in victory, so they resorted to disguise to gain an edge in the all-important border world disputes.

Look at it this way. Who would you generally trust more: a calm person who has smooth lines in his features, or a sharp-toothed, snarling dude with a miniature fucking MOUNTAIN RANGE on his head?

Humans are genetically predisposed to go for the former...and since humanoids in Trek apparently share a common heritage, so, too, would most of the "races of the week"--especially judging by the fearsome reputation the Klingons hold, how their "smell" is regarded, etc., etc.

Another option is a technobabblish sickness. THAT would certainly embarrass the Klingons.

But the two races thing...nah. No way. Even among Klingons we've never heard of such a thing discussed. It makes no sense in Kor's case, unless he was a different guy altogether (he's definitely the same guy, so that's out). It makes no sense in the "ashamed to talk about it" sense.

Damn. That makes sense. Perfect fucking sense.

I bow before your analyses, Sean.

Howedar wrote:Damn. That makes sense. Perfect fucking sense.

I bow before your analyses, Sean.

You honor me my friend.

That one has been in the oven for many years, though. I didn't just come up with it

No explanation for the change in Klingon appearance really works though for one reason.

Dax and the other DS9 people did not recognise the smooth skinned Klingons at all. Dax at the very least should have recognised them due to her long memory.

MrAnderson wrote:No explanation for the change in Klingon appearance really works though for one reason.

Dax and the other DS9 people did not recognise the smooth skinned Klingons at all. Dax at the very least should have recognised them due to her long memory.

I might agree with you if not for the fact that Daxwas not confronted with any smooth-headed Klingons. She was on the Enterprise at the time.

The only guys who saw the TOS Klingons in that scene were O'Brien, Odo, Bashir and of course Worf. I can dig up the transcript if you like.

MrAnderson wrote:No explanation for the change in Klingon appearance really works though for one reason.

Dax and the other DS9 people did not recognise the smooth skinned Klingons at all. Dax at the very least should have recognised them due to her long memory.

Dax was on the Enterprise, not K-7.

Grand Admiral Thrawn wrote: Dax was on the Enterprise, not K-7.

Oops!

I write fast, but not fast enough!

They may not be a different race but were sure as hell smarter when they were smooth... smooth like a woman, like...like I am going to break into a Chef styled song "Oh baby..."
no you don't want that
anyways
Like I was saying they seemed smarter when they were smoother.

Well, this one comic was talking about two different races (and Kor looked the way he looked in TOS).

One of the early guides to ST-species suggested, that the smooth-headed Klingons were genetically-engineered human-klingon-hybrids.

As for the size of the KE, i doubt we can take Sloans claim, that the Klingons would need ten years to recover at face value. The man is a spy, not a military officer.

And given the fact, that the Klingons in "Yesterdays Enterprise" were beating the crap out of the Federation (although the war lasted for twenty years), we can safely assume, that their empire at least equals the Federation in size. Two-thirds of the worlds of the Federation to make up for their higher militaristic attitude.

FTeik wrote:Well, this one comic was talking about two different races (and Kor looked the way he looked in TOS).

Lots of materials pushed for a multi-race Klingon thing pretty hard, so I'm not condemning it alone when I say it's not canon. In the context of the times, before DS9 I mean, I'm sure it made more sense.

One of the early guides to ST-species suggested, that the smooth-headed Klingons were genetically-engineered human-klingon-hybrids.

Hmm. Yeah *nods*

I suppose that's possible, but personally, I prefer the surgery route, which is canon ("Apocalypse Rising," "Trials and Tribble-ations"). It also simplifies the Kor dilemma; i.e., a return to bumpy-headiness following TOS.

Besides, I have doubts that the racist Klingon regime would ever allow hybrids to occupy positions of great power, especially given their attitudes toward women serving on the High Council.

The other thing is that even a human-Klingon hybrid would still require surgery or extensive modifications to look human, as Klingon genes tend to be dominant. All of the human-Klingon peeps we've seen looked Klingon, too much so to pass effectively as a human (Torres, K'ehylar, Torres' daughter).

That's not to suggest your idea is therefore impossible; rather, I'm saying that it necessarily complicates the issue with compounded speculation, speculation for which we increasingly don't have a precedent.

We do have precedent for extensive surgery, though, and we also know that the Klingons frown on medicine (AND cloning) in general, let alone a procedure devised to hide one's "true identity" to hide from persecution. They might go along with a little nip and tucking on the forehead to help win a cold war with the Federation, but that itself is pushing it. They definitely wouldn't be keen on something far more involved. (Also, you'll note that, when Sisko, Odo and O'Brien were Klingonized for "Apocalypse Rising," Worf did NOT approve a change in his appearance. Gowron recognized him as a result. If he didn't approve of surgery, imagine how he'd react if Bashir wanted to tamper with his DNA. He'd probably punch out Bashir on the spot.)

So, I think surgery is the simplest "in continuity" explanation. The best is that TOS didn't have the budget, but budgets and FX are irrelevant for our purposes.

As for the size of the KE, i doubt we can take Sloans claim, that the Klingons would need ten years to recover at face value. The man is a spy, not a military officer.

But that's like saying a CIA agent couldn't know the condition of the Russian military. It wouldn't be very difficult to deduce, and Starfleet is full of officers who would get Section 31 such information, anyway. Without a source to contradict him, I think his statement is probably accurate. One must also keep in mind that the Klingons might've fought much harder than the Federation did and, thus, incurred more losses. We knowGowron pissed away some no. of ships in his vendetta against Martok, so the Klingons were also more wreckless.

Hell, even Martok HIMSELF is more wreckless than his Starfleet and Romulan counterparts. Remember how, in "Tears of the Prophets," Martok decided that the Klingon contingent would take the Jem'Hadar on alone? As a result, 18 (?) of his ships sustained damage or were destroyed outright. If he'd just kept them in formation with the other two fleets, their combined might could've stomped the Jem'Hadar with fewer or no losses whatsoever.

And given the fact, that the Klingons in "Yesterdays Enterprise" were beating the crap out of the Federation (although the war lasted for twenty years), we can safely assume, that their empire at least equals the Federation in size. Two-thirds of the worlds of the Federation to make up for their higher militaristic attitude.

I tend to agree that the Klingons should approach the Federation in size, but then, how big is that? How much do we "count"?

We have contradictory accounts. Picard says it's almost 8,000 ly across in "First Contact," but that includes all sorts of territory that the Federation hasn't even explored, let alone controls. Baku, for instance, was in Federation space, but they certainly had no control over it.

From all indications, the bulk of the Federation's prime assets are within hundreds of ly of Earth, so it's entirely possible that the Klingons could be competitive with roughly that amount of space, or even less depending on a no. of factors (how well does each organization make use of the resources in a given volume of space, what's actually IN that space, etc.).

Oh for the days of TOS, when men were men, and women wore very short skirts.

And the humans fired first from time to time.

seanrobertson wrote:

FTeik wrote:Well, this one comic was talking about two different races (and Kor looked the way he looked in TOS).

Lots of materials pushed for a multi-race Klingon thing pretty hard, so I'm not condemning it alone when I say it's not canon. In the context of the times, before DS9 I mean, I'm sure it made more sense.

One of the early guides to ST-species suggested, that the smooth-headed Klingons were genetically-engineered human-klingon-hybrids.

Hmm. Yeah *nods*

I wasn´t attempting to voice my own ideas, just adding things i heard or read to the discussion.

I suppose that's possible, but personally, I prefer the surgery route, which is canon ("Apocalypse Rising," "Trials and Tribble-ations"). It also simplifies the Kor dilemma; i.e., a return to bumpy-headiness following TOS.

Since it should be impossible to change a genetic make-up, surgery would explain the changes better than genetic engineering (since a fuck-up of continuity as not in-universe is out of question).

Besides, I have doubts that the racist Klingon regime would ever allow hybrids to occupy positions of great power, especially given their attitudes toward women serving on the High Council.

The other thing is that even a human-Klingon hybrid would still require surgery or extensive modifications to look human, as Klingon genes tend to be dominant. All of the human-Klingon peeps we've seen looked Klingon, too much so to pass effectively as a human (Torres, K'ehylar, Torres' daughter).

Careful on this one. The Klingons in TOS were very (VERY) different from the Klingons in TNG.

That's not to suggest your idea is therefore impossible; rather, I'm saying that it necessarily complicates the issue with compounded speculation, speculation for which we increasingly don't have a precedent.

We do have precedent for extensive surgery, though, and we also know that the Klingons frown on medicine (AND cloning) in general, let alone a procedure devised to hide one's "true identity" to hide from persecution. They might go along with a little nip and tucking on the forehead to help win a cold war with the Federation, but that itself is pushing it. They definitely wouldn't be keen on something far more involved. (Also, you'll note that, when Sisko, Odo and O'Brien were Klingonized for "Apocalypse Rising," Worf did NOT approve a change in his appearance. Gowron recognized him as a result. If he didn't approve of surgery, imagine how he'd react if Bashir wanted to tamper with his DNA. He'd probably punch out Bashir on the spot.)

Well, the klingon ambassador in ST:IV looked a lot like those mixed Klingons, although i doubt he was a hybrid or genetically engineered.

And i would be very careful with claiming Klingons having problems with tampering with DNA or surgery. This might be true for the stupid Klingon-incarnations of TNG-times, but TOS-Klingons were very (VERY) different.

As for the size of the KE, i doubt we can take Sloans claim, that the Klingons would need ten years to recover at face value. The man is a spy, not a military officer.

But that's like saying a CIA agent couldn't know the condition of the Russian military. It wouldn't be very difficult to deduce, and Starfleet is full of officers who would get Section 31 such information, anyway. Without a source to contradict him, I think his statement is probably accurate.

Well, how many CIA-agents knew about the breakdown of the Sovjet-Empire? Or other instances, where they were wrong. Besides, where do you think the Starfleet-Officers get their informations from? Of what use is a secret intelligence-gathering service, that has to ask the people it is supposed to provide with information?

And given the fact, that the Klingons in "Yesterdays Enterprise" were beating the crap out of the Federation (although the war lasted for twenty years), we can safely assume, that their empire at least equals the Federation in size. Two-thirds of the worlds of the Federation to make up for their higher militaristic attitude.

I tend to agree that the Klingons should approach the Federation in size, but then, how big is that? How much do we "count"?

We have contradictory accounts. Picard says it's almost 8,000 ly across in "First Contact," but that includes all sorts of territory that the Federation hasn't even explored, let alone controls. Baku, for instance, was in Federation space, but they certainly had no control over it.

From all indications, the bulk of the Federation's prime assets are within hundreds of ly of Earth, so it's entirely possible that the Klingons could be competitive with roughly that amount of space, or even less depending on a no. of factors (how well does each organization make use of the resources in a given volume of space, what's actually IN that space, etc.).

It should be obvious, that a simple count of how many cubic-lightyears of space one controls doesn´t make sense, so i agree. So it would be better to look for planets and following that ranking them after population, wealth, industrial capacities and so on.

One industrial system like earth would of course count more than ten brothels like Risa.

FTeik wrote: I wasn´t attempting to voice my own ideas, just adding things i heard or read to the discussion.

That's cool man

They're good ideas, anyway. The hybrid theory is one of the top three, IMO, along with some disease and the surgery deal.

Since it should be impossible to change a genetic make-up, surgery would explain the changes better than genetic engineering (since a fuck-up of continuity as not in-universe is out of question).

Precisely. Nicely said.

Careful on this one. The Klingons in TOS were very (VERY) different from the Klingons in TNG.

Hmm, well, yeah. They were in a lot of respects. They certainly weren't knife-wielding madmen.

Well, the klingon ambassador in ST:IV looked a lot like those mixed Klingons, although i doubt he was a hybrid or genetically engineered.

And i would be very careful with claiming Klingons having problems with tampering with DNA or surgery. This might be true for the stupid Klingon-incarnations of TNG-times, but TOS-Klingons were very (VERY) different.

See, I don't think Klingons in TOS were smarter as a whole; I think we simply saw smarter, craftier Klingons in general.

Take Kor as an example. He was smart in TOS and DS9. Some of his dialogue in DS9 is a thing of beauty; it's clear he's a great intellect, past and present

KOR

The only weight I carry now, dear
comrade, is my own bulbous body.
I was once, if you remember...
(lightly patting his belly)...far less than you see, and...
(recalls sadly)... far more than I have become.

Well, how many CIA-agents knew about the breakdown of the Sovjet-Empire?

Six

LOL. I dunno. But I bet they had some idea of how strong the Soviet military was.

Or other instances, where they were wrong. Besides, where do you think the Starfleet-Officers get their informations from? Of what use is a secret intelligence-gathering service, that has to ask the people it is supposed to provide with information?

That's true, but keep in mind that the Klingons were the Federation's allies at that point. They'd fought in a war together for a couple of years or so. Sloan should know the Klingons' fleet strength just from observing their movements, their effectiveness against the Jem'Hadar/Cardassians.

It should be obvious, that a simple count of how many cubic-lightyears of space one controls doesn´t make sense, so i agree. So it would be better to look for planets and following that ranking them after population, wealth, industrial capacities and so on.

One industrial system like earth would of course count more than ten brothels like Risa.

Precisely.

I wish we had some hard, canon descriptions of how big their space is, and the concentration of their resources. It'd be great.

Maybe ENT will clue us in (my lips and tongue are burning from the sarcasm)