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In 1984, the government of Oceania and presumably the other two super-states have developed a mental process known as "doublethink." The book describes this as "reality control," but I feel that that is an unsatisfactory definition. As the name suggests, this process involves holding two completely contradictory pieces of information in one's mind and believing both of them at the same time. This is obviously the epitome of cognitive dissonance, and by the books description it appears that the person engaging in doublethink appears to be only semi-conscious of the processes involved.

While some members of the vs. community who will remain nameless DarkStar, Galaxy, Sovereign, etc. doubtless practice such thinking, they are not the focus of this thread.

Rather, the thread is designed to explore the uses of doublethink within Star Trek.

Clearly, Star Trek writers have alluded to 1984 throughout the franchise's run. In particular, Picard's interrogation by Gul Madred in "Chain of Command" obviously and continuously alludes to Winston's discussions in 1984.

Of perhaps greater interest to the vs. community is the propensity of Star Fleet officers to ignore their government's actions, or to view its actions in apparently contradictory ways. For example, almost everyone in Star Fleet agrees that the starships it carries are designed for peaceful, exploration purposes. These ships are armed with considerable weaponry, and particularly after the First Borg Incursion Star Fleet increased its production of warships and intensified its R&D into new, more powerful weapons designed to defeat the Borg. The military nature of numerous episodes throughout "Deep Space 9," and in fact the very existence of the Defiant appear to show that Star Fleet has considerable military powers. Yet its officers sometimes appear to be oblivious to all of this, insisting that Star Fleet is peaceful and speaking of it in idylic terms.

Star Fleet officers have made claims regarding the eradication of poverty and disease, but we have observed countless diseases in many species throughout the run of TNG and subsequent series. Tasha Yar and her sister grew up in apparent povery on a former Earth colony.

Orwell's vision of the government also creeps into Star Fleet's mantra. In the UFP, criminals are reformed. Star Fleet personnel are in charge of the judiciary process, and still wear their uniforms to court. Star Fleet appears to control almost all mercantile activity, runs the press, runs the subspace comm network, appears to control transportation, and they have eliminated religion. While many here (and I doubt not elsewhere) have attributed this to being communism, coupled with the lack of currency, it also comes startlingly close to 1984's vision of the world. The sparsely decorated quarters; the apparent requirements for people to work; the way that Star Fleet (The Party) makes up an upper class, while people not working for Star Fleet sometimes feel ignored or discriminated against. Even the synthesized alcohol (Victory Gin, in 1984) appears to be a staple of the Star Fleet diet. Star Fleet officers are glamorized; starships are worshipped; the uniform (conformity) is what people are to aspire towards.

Darth Wong's essay on the Federation and Communism has this to say about the mentality of UFP citizenry:

Darth Wong wrote:The Federation is a suffocatingly patriarchal society, where the endless rhetoric about rights and freedoms and individuality is never backed up by actual working examples.

Indeed, the average Federation citizen's "doublethink" extends into their thoughts and ideals--much like doublethink was MEANT to in 1984.

It seems clear that Federation citizens and officers frequently engage in cognitive dissonance/doublethink. There are doubtless other examples of similar behavior from other episodes, involving different aspects of life, but I am more interested in hearing other people's thoughts regarding this apparent contradiction. How much of Star Trek, if any, is based in 1984? How much of it parallels Orwell's vision? Were the writers and staff purposely alluding to the book, or did it come out that way?

i dont think even the evil EMPIRE is 1984-ish.. more proof that startrek is evil.

Master of Ossus wrote:While many here (and I doubt not elsewhere) have attributed this to being communism, coupled with the lack of currency, it also comes startlingly close to 1984's vision of the world.

Isn't all the superpowers described in 1984 supposed to subscribe to the socio-economic ideology known as Leninism?

I don't really think that they intended for any parallels and I also don't think that many parallels exist beyond the socialist leanings of the Federation and IngSoc, which in true doublethink form was both born of and thought of as socialism and yet defiled and discredited everything that was inherent in socialism.

Of perhaps greater interest to the vs. community is the propensity of Star Fleet officers to ignore their government's actions, or to view its actions in apparently contradictory ways. For example, almost everyone in Star Fleet agrees that the starships it carries are designed for peaceful, exploration purposes.

That is because they are.

These ships are armed with considerable weaponry, and particularly after the First Borg Incursion Star Fleet increased its production of warships and intensified its R&D into new, more powerful weapons designed to defeat the Borg.

Well considerable weapons depends upon your point of view, comparing the Ent-D and Ent-E shows a marked improvement in ability and load out and indicates that Starfleet has become more militant than it once was this however doesn't indicate double-think simply that Starfleet has changed with the times.

The military nature of numerous episodes throughout "Deep Space 9," and in fact the very existence of the Defiant appear to show that Star Fleet has considerable military powers

The defiant was a one off and was abandoned, it was also pointed out that the construction of such a ship was a departure for Starfleet current ethos.

Yet its officers sometimes appear to be oblivious to all of this, insisting that Star Fleet is peaceful and speaking of it in idyllic terms.

The Federation is like that at the start of TNG, later it starts getting its teeth back, this is simply adaptation.

Orwell's vision of the government also creeps into Star Fleet's mantra. In the UFP, criminals are reformed.

Many current societies have this aim and it really isn't endemic to IngSoc especially considering IngSoc criminals are reformed through nefarious means so that they can confess and then at some later date be vaporised now if that was going on in federation society you may have a point until then however.

In the UFP, criminals are reformed. Star Fleet personnel are in charge of the judiciary process, and still wear their uniforms to court.

I am not convinced of that but I am interested in hearing why you think so.

Star Fleet appears to control almost all mercantile activity,

I'm not entirely convinced of that either (wonder if anyone will spot the SG1 reference ) while Starfleet does do some cargo runs we also know that commercial transports exist (since Julians father worked on one) and that Federation member races do run cargo (as noted by the various ship docking at DS9).

runs the press,

Well the Federation does not Starfleet.

appears to control transportation,

As seen above public transportation not under Starfleet control exists and private ships aren't unheard of, I would also point out that many of these issues are indicative of socialism at large and not specifically IngSoc.

and they have eliminated religion.

have they?
I very much doubt Bajor will give up it's religion, Vulcans have their pseudo religion and while humans may no longer practice an organised religion (from what we see) they mainly fall into he agnostic category and not atheist.
To little is know about other races to make a judgement but I'm sure I could find something more if I looked.

it also comes startlingly close to 1984's vision of the world.

Not really, the things you point out are almost all examples of socialism and even at that some of them don't hold up.
Things that screen of 1984 like constant war (the very staple of the world) are missing, the harsh class divisions are not in existence, their are no ominous thought police handing about, no Telescreens, no active effort to rewrite the past and make the Federation council seem all knowing, no denial of education and satisfaction of consumer needs (in fact the Federation fills both of these amply and the denial of both of these is the primary aim of IngSoc, the fact that the Federation is diametrically opposed to IngSoc on this fundamental issue should end any comparison here and now), the denial of comparison with outside nations doesn't exist, the denial of basic instinct also doesn't exist (except perhaps greed) and so on, the fundamental tenets of IngSoc are ignored by the Federation and any comparison between the two is therefore doomed to failure.

The sparsely decorated quarters;

For the pseudo military types sure (although they have far more decoration and personal effects than you will find in the houses of any outer party member) but civilians have huge amounts of decoration in their homes, the fact that the "military" have sparse decoration should hardly comes as a surprise considering what they are, in fact they have more decoration than similar modern equivalents (merchant marine would probably be closest or maybe a cruise liner).

the apparent requirements for people to work;

Hmm interesting, I find this a topic of some debate (although I tend to agree with you) what evidence do you have to back it up?

the way that Star Fleet (The Party) makes up an upper class, while people not working for Star Fleet sometimes feel ignored or discriminated against.

Proof?

Even the synthesized alcohol (Victory Gin, in 1984) appears to be a staple of the Star Fleet diet.

Victory gin is closer to battery acid then Synthohol and victory gin was strictly for party members (although not hard for Proles to get their hands on) whereas in Trek everyone has access to Synthohol and civilian establishments carry both Synthohol and real alcohol.

Star Fleet officers are glamorized; starships are worshipped; the uniform (conformity) is what people are to aspire towards.

Come now surely you must consider that our statistical sample (90%+ Starfleet officers) will screw any such results, however Jake Sisko had no interest in Starfleet, O'Brien's father wanted him to be a musician, Sisko's father a cook, Picard's father to take over the vineyard and so on, this idea of Starfleet being worshipped is erroneous but even if it was not since the party was idolised by the Proles it is a non issue anyway.

Indeed, the average Federation citizen's "doublethink" extends into their thoughts and ideals--much like doublethink was MEANT to in 1984.

The rights of federation citizens are constantly seen on screen, just because active examples don't happen every five minutes doesn't prove anything, somebody could film my life for a week or two and never see a rights issue appear this however doesn't mean I don't have them and exercise them every time I talk with a friend, buy something and so on.
The only real time we see rights become an issue in trek are when somebody doesn't have rights or has their rights challenged (Data, the Doctor etc) however once they have the status of such rights confirmed that is the end of the story and they get to exercise such rights (Data’s right to self determination, the Doctors right to his own intellectual property).

How much of Star Trek, if any, is based in 1984?

None really, the necessary prerequisites for and aims of IngSoc simply aren't present in the Federation you are simply alluding to things common to socialism in general (except for one or two issues) and then inferring a connection where none exists.

The only issues specific to IngSoc are doublethink and the Victory Gin, the later is rather flimsy and the former I don't really see although if you expand on it more I may be able to see where you are coming from.

One note: The Defiant design was not abandoned. The Defiant itself, at the end of DS9, is already the second Defiant-class ship to bear the name Defiant. And there are other examples as well, such as the USS Valiant (if I'm remembering the name right), the destruction of which thankfully killed off most of Red Squad in an ill-advised attempt to take out a major Dominion capital ship. I seem to recall that the Prometheus was also pursued in part by a brace of Defiant-class ships (though I will not swear to it).

Patrick Ogaard wrote:I seem to recall that the Prometheus was also pursued in part by a brace of Defiant-class ships (though I will not swear to it).

USS Sao Paulo was renamed the USS Defiant, second of that name in the class. The force sent to retrieve the Prometheus included an Akira and two unnamed Defiants, establishing a production run of at least five ships. Considering the Dominion War, one thinks there would be no reason that more were not produced (Especially since they could afford to put one such ship, one of the more powerful and tactically useful in Starfleet, on training duty).

Patrick Ogaard wrote:One note: The Defiant design was not abandoned. The Defiant itself, at the end of DS9, is already the second Defiant-class ship to bear the name Defiant. And there are other examples as well, such as the USS Valiant (if I'm remembering the name right), the destruction of which thankfully killed off most of Red Squad in an ill-advised attempt to take out a major Dominion capital ship. I seem to recall that the Prometheus was also pursued in part by a brace of Defiant-class ships (though I will not swear to it).

I should have been more specific, the Defiant design was a one off direct response to the Borg that was shelved when the Borg went away later the design was put into production due to the Dominion threat but this was in keeping with the more militaristic bent that Starfleet began to take on from that point forward, the point being that it wasn't standard starfleet policy to go around thinking itself without any true warships when it was actually supporting fleets of them as would be implied by using the Defiant as an example of doublethink.

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:

Patrick Ogaard wrote:I seem to recall that the Prometheus was also pursued in part by a brace of Defiant-class ships (though I will not swear to it).

USS Sao Paulo was renamed the USS Defiant, second of that name in the class. The force sent to retrieve the Prometheus included an Akira and two unnamed Defiants, establishing a production run of at least five ships. Considering the Dominion War, one thinks there would be no reason that more were not produced (Especially since they could afford to put one such ship, one of the more powerful and tactically useful in Starfleet, on training duty).

There are also a couple of Defiants in the Endgame fleet and I would expect a fair few more to be out there as well considering the Terran rebels in the mirror universe were able to build a Defiant in less than 9 months with zero experience and nothing in the way of a proper shipyard or resources, indicating that defiant class ships are cheap and easy to build and they take up very little in the way of crew.

No, the federation has it's own brand of wierdness, such as the C-in-C != Federation President (ST:VI)

TheDarkling wrote:I don't really think that they intended for any parallels and I also don't think that many parallels exist beyond the socialist leanings of the Federation and IngSoc, which in true doublethink form was both born of and thought of as socialism and yet defiled and discredited everything that was inherent in socialism.

Are you seriously suggesting that they wrote "Chain of Command" with no intention of paralleling 1984?

Of perhaps greater interest to the vs. community is the propensity of Star Fleet officers to ignore their government's actions, or to view its actions in apparently contradictory ways. For example, almost everyone in Star Fleet agrees that the starships it carries are designed for peaceful, exploration purposes.

That is because they are.

Not really. All of them are warships, too. The Ent-Nil was described by the Klingons as a battlecruiser. The E-E is a warship, as are all ships of the Defiant class, Sabre class, and presumably the Akira class (though that also retains some exploratory features). Allegedly peaceful ship classes were thrown into the war against the Dominion, armed with photon and quantum torpedoes as well as new types of phasers designed to combat the Borg.

These ships are armed with considerable weaponry, and particularly after the First Borg Incursion Star Fleet increased its production of warships and intensified its R&D into new, more powerful weapons designed to defeat the Borg.

Well considerable weapons depends upon your point of view, comparing the Ent-D and Ent-E shows a marked improvement in ability and load out and indicates that Starfleet has become more militant than it once was this however doesn't indicate double-think simply that Starfleet has changed with the times.

Sure it does. Look at Admiral Leyton's actions in "Paradise Lost." Star Fleet sacrificed its ideals in order to fight the war, but throughout the war we heard SF officers talking about how theirs was a peaceful side, in spite of themselves.

The military nature of numerous episodes throughout "Deep Space 9," and in fact the very existence of the Defiant appear to show that Star Fleet has considerable military powers

The defiant was a one off and was abandoned, it was also pointed out that the construction of such a ship was a departure for Starfleet current ethos.

It was hardly abandoned, and while it may have been a departure from SF ethos it was no worse than the Peregrine class fighters whose ONLY purpose is combat.

Yet its officers sometimes appear to be oblivious to all of this, insisting that Star Fleet is peaceful and speaking of it in idyllic terms.

The Federation is like that at the start of TNG, later it starts getting its teeth back, this is simply adaptation.

Orwell's vision of the government also creeps into Star Fleet's mantra. In the UFP, criminals are reformed.

Many current societies have this aim and it really isn't endemic to IngSoc especially considering IngSoc criminals are reformed through nefarious means so that they can confess and then at some later date be vaporised now if that was going on in federation society you may have a point until then however.

In the UFP, criminals are reformed. Star Fleet personnel are in charge of the judiciary process, and still wear their uniforms to court.

I am not convinced of that but I am interested in hearing why you think so.

That's exactly what happened to Doctor Bashir's parents, when they handed themselves in for tampering with their son's genetics.

runs the press,

Well the Federation does not Starfleet.

True.

appears to control transportation,

As seen above public transportation not under Starfleet control exists and private ships aren't unheard of, I would also point out that many of these issues are indicative of socialism at large and not specifically IngSoc.

What private ships? All of them appear to belong to members of other races, and various ship designs is not solely indicative of private shipping.

and they have eliminated religion.

have they?

Aside from the Bajorans, yes.

I very much doubt Bajor will give up it's religion, Vulcans have their pseudo religion and while humans may no longer practice an organised religion (from what we see) they mainly fall into he agnostic category and not atheist.

Vulcan logic is hardly a pseudo-religion. If anything it's a philosophy. Terms like "God" have become quaint terms, there have been no observed Buddhists in SF, there have been no Christians, and while the original Enterprise had a chapel (seen in "Balance of Terror"), no similar features have been observed since. There are no chaplains, there are no priests, there are no rabbis or caliphs or Popes. There is no prayer. Keiko and Miles O'Brien were married according to Irish and Japanese traditions, instead of religious rites, in TEN FORWARD LOUNGE, by Captain Picard. Religion is gone.

To little is know about other races to make a judgement but I'm sure I could find something more if I looked.

it also comes startlingly close to 1984's vision of the world.

Not really, the things you point out are almost all examples of socialism and even at that some of them don't hold up.

Things that screen of 1984 like constant war (the very staple of the world) are missing,

Research has taken its place. All that was necessary was something to use excess production, and to keep people from living better lives. That's about what we see in ST.

the harsh class divisions are not in existence,

What do you mean? Uniformed officers form a judiciary. Star Fleet officers are revered. Star Fleet is in all ways analogous to the Party.

their are no ominous thought police handing about,

No. There's Section 31 (a secret violation of SF ethos).

no Telescreens,

Communications are easily monitored by everyone.

no active effort to rewrite the past and make the Federation council seem all knowing,

True.

no denial of education

Except on DS9, where THERE WAS NO SCHOOL until Keiko O'Brien decided to build one. She then taught people from diverse ages in ONE CLASSROOM, with one teacher, and with no apparent lesson plan.

and satisfaction of consumer needs (in fact the Federation fills both of these amply and the denial of both of these is the primary aim of IngSoc, the fact that the Federation is diametrically opposed to IngSoc on this fundamental issue should end any comparison here and now),

What are you talking about? SF denies its citizens more than it admits. Michael Eddington throught so--that's part of why the Maquis broke away from the UFP.

the denial of comparison with outside nations doesn't exist,

It more or less does. The Romulan Empire was actually a Republic, as seen in ST:Nemesis, but you'd never have known it by listening to SF officers. Moreover, the governments of all of their near neighbors are pretty similar, with the military running the government and even with secret police forces such as the Obsidian Order.

the denial of basic instinct also doesn't exist (except perhaps greed) and so on, the fundamental tenets of IngSoc are ignored by the Federation and any comparison between the two is therefore doomed to failure.

Like what? They build ships with the capacity to wage war, as opposed to mercantile vessels.

The sparsely decorated quarters;

For the pseudo military types sure (although they have far more decoration and personal effects than you will find in the houses of any outer party member)

Debateable, but that's not really the point. The individual life of a citizen in SF is not much better off than it was in Kirk's time. In spite of the state's efforts to improve everyone's lives, we haven't observed a significant change in the quality of life. The state monitors everything that you have replicated (remember the officer who was arrested for accessing replicator files on the TR-116)?

but civilians have huge amounts of decoration in their homes, the fact that the "military" have sparse decoration should hardly comes as a surprise considering what they are,

Even people with children? Even people who would presumably have large incomes, due to their status as officers?

the apparent requirements for people to work;

Hmm interesting, I find this a topic of some debate (although I tend to agree with you) what evidence do you have to back it up?

Among other things, the abolition of poverty in a visible form. I have personal experience with homeless and jobless people in San Francisco, and I can tell you that the San Francisco in Star Trek has no similarity with the San Francisco of reality, where government offices are frequently lobbied by the impoverished. Additionally, the fact that EVERYONE still works, including people like Ben Sisko's father and Picard's family, even though both of them are beyond retirement age, the gardner for Star Fleet Academy (I've forgotten his name--Janeway's friend) is MUCH too old to be working in a current society. Retirement, to my knowledge, has never been mentioned (though people have talked about resigning their commissions for various reasons, they've never talked about taking the rest of their lives off), I think that the picture is pretty clear.

the way that Star Fleet (The Party) makes up an upper class, while people not working for Star Fleet sometimes feel ignored or discriminated against.

Proof?

Picard's family's attitude towards him.

Even the synthesized alcohol (Victory Gin, in 1984) appears to be a staple of the Star Fleet diet.

Victory gin is closer to battery acid then Synthohol and victory gin was strictly for party members (although not hard for Proles to get their hands on) whereas in Trek everyone has access to Synthohol and civilian establishments carry both Synthohol and real alcohol.

Winston goes to a prole bar and purchases drinks there. I hardly see how the situation is dissimilar.

The rights of federation citizens are constantly seen on screen, just because active examples don't happen every five minutes doesn't prove anything, somebody could film my life for a week or two and never see a rights issue appear this however doesn't mean I don't have them and exercise them every time I talk with a friend, buy something and so on.
The only real time we see rights become an issue in trek are when somebody doesn't have rights or has their rights challenged (Data, the Doctor etc) however once they have the status of such rights confirmed that is the end of the story and they get to exercise such rights (Data’s right to self determination, the Doctors right to his own intellectual property).

How much of Star Trek, if any, is based in 1984?

None really, the necessary prerequisites for and aims of IngSoc simply aren't present in the Federation you are simply alluding to things common to socialism in general (except for one or two issues) and then inferring a connection where none exists.

The only issues specific to IngSoc are doublethink and the Victory Gin, the later is rather flimsy and the former I don't really see although if you expand on it more I may be able to see where you are coming from.

Master of Ossus wrote: Are you seriously suggesting that they wrote "Chain of Command" with no intention of paralleling 1984?

No obviously they did but it was a slight tip of the hat in one episode, the 8472 PK'er mirrors the DS SL but that doesn't mean I am about t start drawing parallels between the Federations form of governance and the Empire.

Not really. All of them are warships, too. The Ent-Nil was described by the Klingons as a battlecruiser.

Ah but the Ent-nil was a battle cruiser but back them Starfleet was a military and everybody knew it, it is often referred to as the military, sure its duel purpose but nobody thinks of it as a virtually 100% pacifist organisation as they do in early TNG.

The E-E is a warship, as are all ships of the Defiant class, Sabre class, and presumably the Akira class (though that also retains some exploratory features).

As I said changing times, nobody makes any bones about the Defiant no being a warship, Sisko is rather upfront about it.

Allegedly peaceful ship classes were thrown into the war against the Dominion, armed with photon and quantum torpedoes as well as new types of phasers designed to combat the Borg.

No body says the ships can't be used for defence just that their are primarily ships of exploration and diplomacy, which they are compare and contrast the Ent-E and Defiant against the Ent-D and Voyager - there is a clear distinction in function, it is rather obvious to everybody in Vs debates that the early TNG ships are designed for things other than combat, you know this by now MOO.

These ships are armed with considerable weaponry, and particularly after the First Borg Incursion Star Fleet increased its production of warships and intensified its R&D into new, more powerful weapons designed to defeat the Borg.

Well considerable weapons depends upon your point of view, comparing the Ent-D and Ent-E shows a marked improvement in ability and load out and indicates that Starfleet has become more militant than it once was this however doesn't indicate double-think simply that Starfleet has changed with the times.

Sure it does. Look at Admiral Leyton's actions in "Paradise Lost." Star Fleet sacrificed its ideals in order to fight the war, but throughout the war we heard SF officers talking about how theirs was a peaceful side, in spite of themselves.

Leyton wanted to protect Earth by bringing in harsher measures, thats not double think thats just assuming the ends justify the means or that security is more valuable than freedom.

As for the Dominion war - come on MOO everybody in war thinks of themselves as just and that the enemy is wrong/inferior, the Federation actually has every right to feel that way because they aren't the aggressors and didn't want a war.

It was hardly abandoned, and while it may have been a departure from SF ethos it was no worse than the Peregrine class fighters whose ONLY purpose is combat.

A ship we never see being used by the Federation until they are at war, surely if Starfleet was the military in denial as you paint them they would have had no objections to carrying them around constantly and using them because doublethink wouldn't allow them to come to the conclusion that they were outfiited more for war (although even ig they did carry them around it wouldn't supercede their primary mission as diplomatic ferries).

That's exactly what happened to Doctor Bashir's parents, when they handed themselves in for tampering with their son's genetics.

Or JAG agreed not to press charges against Bashir if his father handed himself over for prosecution, I know the argument is that JAG shouldn't have been involved but since it did deal with a military matter and only somebody in Starfleet could agree to allow Bashir to escape the consequences of his genetic heritage, JAG could then cut a deal with the civilian authorities.

The incident can easily be viewed differently than the take you have on it and even if Starfleet did run the judiciary this doesn't indicate some innate part of "IngSoc" being copied.

runs the press,

Well the Federation does not Starfleet.

True.

What private ships? All of them appear to belong to members of other races, and various ship designs is not solely indicative of private shipping.

Non human races but not non Federation races, we have heard " Species X's ship is docked at upper pylon 3" etc before and the species in question has been a Federation member (Andorians come to mind at the moment but I will search for more if necessary), besides which you said Starfleet controls all shipping which it clearly does not, and there are shipping companies with humans in them hat don't have to observe the prime directive, only Starfleet controlled organisation would have this surely.

Aside from the Bajorans, yes.

And Chakotay belief in the great spirit or whatever, not to mention an entire colony of "Native Americans" with such beliefs?

Vulcan logic is hardly a pseudo-religion. If anything it's a philosophy.

not logic, the entire bit about Vulcan mystics etc.

Terms like "God" have become quaint terms, there have been no observed Buddhists in SF, there have been no Christians, and while the original Enterprise had a chapel (seen in "Balance of Terror"), no similar features have been observed since. There are no chaplains, there are no priests, there are no rabbis or caliphs or Popes. There is no prayer. Keiko and Miles O'Brien were married according to Irish and Japanese traditions, instead of religious rites, in TEN FORWARD LOUNGE, by Captain Picard. Religion is gone.

And yet people still believe in an after life and some form of soul, the Federation isn't atheist it is agnostic and that is mainly just from observation of humans.

Research has taken its place. All that was necessary was something to use excess production, and to keep people from living better lives. That's about what we see in ST.

Rubbish, the purpose of the war was to use up excess production in order to prevent the quality of life and thus education level increasing, the education in trek seems rather good to me and maybe you would like to backup the statement that research consumes all of the Federation excess resources so much so that people can't find the 24th century equivalent of a shoe lace?

the harsh class divisions are not in existence,

What do you mean? Uniformed officers form a judiciary.

You mean form the office of Judge Advocate General.

Star Fleet officers are revered.

First - prove it.
Second - Show why this is more reverance than the rich and famuos currently get.
Third - Show the link to 1984 where the proles were largely unconcerned with the party member and wren't in reverance of them in anyway.

Star Fleet is in all ways analogous to the Party.

Sorry MOO but I prefer to have evidence and then work towards a conclusion not just have a statement thrown at me without any proof shown, if you show some proof then I will look at it but until then your saying its so don't make it so.

No. There's Section 31 (a secret violation of SF ethos).

Who disapear huge numbers of people, are known about in the public at large, hold torture sessions in preparing people for trial, patrol the streets, have a HQ... oh no wait they don't have any of those things and are simply a stock secret organisation and bare little resemblance to the thought police.

(I was prepared for that one, could you tell?)

Communications are easily monitored by everyone.

Which can be done today, it doesn't equate to having a camera in my face 24/7 here and it doesn't in trek, please try again.

no active effort to rewrite the past and make the Federation council seem all knowing,

True.

And you don't think that hurts your case since the constant shifting of history was another key facet of IngSoc in order to prevent comparison with the past (along with comparison with other nations which also exists for the Federation).

Except on DS9, where THERE WAS NO SCHOOL until Keiko O'Brien decided to build one. She then taught people from diverse ages in ONE CLASSROOM, with one teacher, and with no apparent lesson plan.

Come now MOO, first the children (federation at least) we being home schooled using the computer, second it was unique situation and you fail to mention that the Enterprise had a school as does Earth and then you construe this slight deficiency as being analogous to the widespread attempt by the party to keep people stupid and try to eradicate thought.

Not that it maters but as for Keiko's lesson plan, your proof of this is?

What are you talking about? SF denies its citizens more than it admits. Michael Eddington throught so--that's part of why the Maquis broke away from the UFP.

Silly me I thought it had to do with that entire Cardassians brutalising them thing.

Come on MOO you obviously haven't thought this comparison through very far, you could at least back up your statement with evidence instead of vague allusion that fall through when given close attention.

Eddington complained about replicated food not being as good as real food however the federation doesn't deny real food to its citizens, Siskos father, Picards Vinyard, O'Briens mother and so on, the choice is there but people don't seem to mind replicated food so most don't go to the trouble.

You see the provision of unlimited variety of food slightly inferior to the real thing as a restriction, you have read 1984 right? where they have a ration on everything enough that people are kept just above starvation? because frankly there just isn't any comparison.

It more or less does. The Romulan Empire was actually a Republic, as seen in ST:Nemesis, but you'd never have known it by listening to SF officers. Moreover, the governments of all of their near neighbors are pretty similar, with the military running the government and even with secret police forces such as the Obsidian Order.

Starfleet doesn't run the government nor does it have a secret police thats just blantant falsehood.
The Romulan empire has a supreme leader and refers to ITSELF as the The Romulan Star Empire thus the Federation hardly slanders them by calling them such.

The Ferengi allow commerce often, the various one planet worlds are open to Federation visitation, Cardassia, the Klingon empire, the Tholians and probably a great deal more, also it wasn't just about comparison to other ways of life (since the other powers lived somewhat similarly) but comparison to the people of the other side who were always portrayed as savages, this isn't denied to Federation citizens.

Like what? They build ships with the capacity to wage war, as opposed to mercantile vessels.

Sigh, history is not rewritten, desire not suppressed, personal freedoms not curtailed, the populace isn't sharply divided into categories, people don't disappear without a trace only to never have existed by the next day, there are no thought police, the population isn't kept ignorant, the population is kept at subsistence level existence and so on, everything that makes IngSoc unique is missing from the federation your comparison is flawed.

Debateable, but that's not really the point. The individual life of a citizen in SF is not much better off than it was in Kirk's time.

And you judge this how?
Starfleet officers now have better quarters at least

The state monitors everything that you have replicated (remember the officer who was arrested for accessing replicator files on the TR-116)?

The replicatiors has logs sure but those logs can probably only be searched due to a crime etc, after all the person in question wasn't caught until the murder sent up red flags if constant monitoring was going on it would have been noticed the moment he replicated the weapon.

Even people with children? Even people who would presumably have large incomes, due to their status as officers?

Compare that to what navy personnel have onboard their ships and let us not forget that Picard had a huge estate, Harries apartment on Earth was well outfitted etc, you can't use the not so spare living quarters as an example of what civilian life is like on Federation worlds.

Among other things, the abolition of poverty in a visible form. I have personal experience with homeless and jobless people in San Francisco, and I can tell you that the San Francisco in Star Trek has no similarity with the San Francisco of reality, where government offices are frequently lobbied by the impoverished.

Just because poverty has been abolished doesn't mean they are forced to work, however your evidence that in the 3 seconds or so we have seen of San fran outside of ST HQ we didn't see protestors hardly counts for much.

Additionally, the fact that EVERYONE still works, including people like Ben Sisko's father and Picard's family, even though both of them are beyond retirement age, the gardner for Star Fleet Academy (I've forgotten his name--Janeway's friend) is MUCH too old to be working in a current society.

Sisko tells his Dad to retire but his dad will have none of it, I imagine the same goes for Boothby and from what we know of Picard’s brother that probably goes the same.

Remember in our world if you retire at 70 you have about 10 years on average in their world you have about 30-50, the federation probably doesn't force people to retire at a certain age but only when job performance is affect and since Sisko's dad and Picards brother run their own businesses the Federation can't force them to retire.

Retirement, to my knowledge, has never been mentioned (though people have talked about resigning their commissions for various reasons, they've never talked about taking the rest of their lives off), I think that the picture is pretty clear.

SISKO
Twelve hecapates. I'm going to
start building as soon as the
war's over.
(smiling at the
picture)
I'll retire here someday... and
watch the sun set over the
mountains every night.

ODO/CURZON
Later I realized that I'd robbed you
of something you'd wanted all your
life... I felt so guilty I nearly
retired from the Symbiosis
Commission...

There is nothing pointing to mandatory employment in the evidence you have presented thus far.

Picard's family's attitude towards him.

His sister in law treats him like family and his brother hates him and the nephew wants to join Starfleet although his father isn't impressed with the idea.

Tell you what I will help you out.

What about the town making a fuss over him? they wanted to give him the key to the city.

true enough but this was man involved in saving the entire planet a few days ago and he commands the Federation's flagship it is no wonder he gets some recognition, people have been keys to cities for far less.

Winston goes to a prole bar and purchases drinks there. I hardly see how the situation is dissimilar.

Victory Gin is supposedly better than the beer the proles have (Proles attempt to gain access to Victory gin) so for you analogy to hold out civilians must be denied Synthohol but they are not, few choice to drink is permitted to all (except with the possible exception of Starfleet not liking people on its ships to get drunk).

[/quote]

In the UFP, criminals are reformed. Star Fleet personnel are in charge of the judiciary process, and still wear their uniforms to court.

I am not convinced of that but I am interested in hearing why you think so.

I think he's thinking of 1) Tom Paris's stint in New Zealand, and 2) Episodes involving court martials and similar hearings involving Starfleet personnel.

Of course, Starfleet is a military organization in structure if not in capability or objectives, so it only makes sense that military personnel would attend military court functions in uniform.

Raoul Duke, Jr. wrote:

In the UFP, criminals are reformed. Star Fleet personnel are in charge of the judiciary process, and still wear their uniforms to court.

I am not convinced of that but I am interested in hearing why you think so.

I think he's thinking of 1) Tom Paris's stint in New Zealand, and 2) Episodes involving court martials and similar hearings involving Starfleet personnel.

Of course, Starfleet is a military organization in structure if not in capability or objectives, so it only makes sense that military personnel would attend military court functions in uniform.

Exactly, why would they attend these hearings or courtmartials in anything but their uniforms?
And correct me if I am wrong but reforming criminals is something we do today, so I don't see what the big deal about that is.

Quote:
The state monitors everything that you have replicated (remember the officer who was arrested for accessing replicator files on the TR-116)?


The replicatiors has logs sure but those logs can probably only be searched due to a crime etc, after all the person in question wasn't caught until the murder sent up red flags if constant monitoring was going on it would have been noticed the moment he replicated the weapon.

Well, the spying thing gets a lot more creepy, when you think of of TNC episode, whose name I forgot. In that episode, Picard used the holodeck to create what happend in and around the cafè in paris at a certain day to a certain time.
This mounts serveral things, that were interesting:
-Did all computer cores save what happend all over earth up until a certain point? That must me an enormus ammont of data.
-How do they get the informations? Did they spy everything and anyone out? Seems, that a least on Earth, that is the case.
-Picard talked the the holographic representation of his ex-girlfriend. There she talked about her motivations to go there and wait. But how did they get this information? Either they also spy out all kind of apartments or they somehow also can record thoughts.

Big Brother from 1984 became real......

Think about what I said.

Tribun wrote:

Quote:
The state monitors everything that you have replicated (remember the officer who was arrested for accessing replicator files on the TR-116)?


The replicatiors has logs sure but those logs can probably only be searched due to a crime etc, after all the person in question wasn't caught until the murder sent up red flags if constant monitoring was going on it would have been noticed the moment he replicated the weapon.

Well, the spying thing gets a lot more creepy, when you think of of TNC episode, whose name I forgot. In that episode, Picard used the holodeck to create what happend in and around the cafè in paris at a certain day to a certain time.
This mounts serveral things, that were interesting:
-Did all computer cores save what happend all over earth up until a certain point? That must me an enormus ammont of data.
-How do they get the informations? Did they spy everything and anyone out? Seems, that a least on Earth, that is the case.
-Picard talked the the holographic representation of his ex-girlfriend. There she talked about her motivations to go there and wait. But how did they get this information? Either they also spy out all kind of apartments or they somehow also can record thoughts.

Big Brother from 1984 became real......

Think about what I said.

I think you're going way out on a limb here. Sure, the holodeck could probably replicate the weather patterns from that day on its own, but I doubt it could accurately recreate individual conversations, and it certainly can't recreate a real person's thoughts, feelings and motivations, unless those things are already known and input into the system.

It's no different than running a video game set in 1942 -- the computer knows what it has to display given the parameters, and it's bound to get most things right, within reason -- but it's going on preset data and logical extrapolations thereof.

Now it may be as you say -- but given the colossal amount of data it would take to represent any given location on any given Federation world on any given day within a 300+ year timeframe (remember the Dixon Hill scenarios?) it seems pretty damned implausible.

Tribun wrote: Well, the spying thing gets a lot more creepy, when you think of of TNC episode, whose name I forgot. In that episode, Picard used the holodeck to create what happend in and around the cafè in paris at a certain day to a certain time.

They may keep weather records and that is why Picard input the date and time etc.

-Picard talked the the holographic representation of his ex-girlfriend. There she talked about her motivations to go there and wait. But how did they get this information? Either they also spy out all kind of apartments or they somehow also can record thoughts.

It wasn't his girlfriend, it was just a coincidence with the computer aiding the lovesick women in for flavour.

Big Brother from 1984 became real......

Think about what I said.

You were incorrect about the spying because the holodeck didn’t completely reconstruct the day as you believe they did and frankly such a notion doesn't make any sense at all, how were the various infiltrations (Dominion, weird worms, Cardassian spies) and acts of treason (Kims plans to steal a Runabout in an alternate timeline, Kirk and Co stealing the original Ent etc) not picked up by this complicated mind reading system that can scan everyone’s mind.